Talk:Turkoman (ethnonym)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Narutolovehinata5 (talk) 12:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Significant article issues found; the article is currently at GAR as of this closure.

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Territories where Oghuz languages are spoken today

... that a significant percentage of residents of Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Turkmenistan are descendants of Oghuz Turks, also known as Turkomans, and the languages they speak belong to a single group within one language family (pictured)? Sources: Shukurov, Rustam (1987). Fadl Allah Rashid ed-Din. Oghuzname (in Russian). Baku, Azerbaijan: Elm. pp. 1–26; Doerfer, Gerhard (1987). "Turks in Iran (Turkish translation)". Türk Dili ve Edebiyatı Dergisi: 431. It is very strange that the word "Turkmen" still leads to confusion; in Leningrad, I saw that Iraqi Oghuz literature was cataloged under the name "Turkmen"; in fact, the word Turkman simply means an Oghuz nomad.

• ... that a majority of residents of Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Turkmenistan are descendants of Turkomans, and their languages belong to an Oghuz group of Turkic languages (pictured)? Sources: Shukurov, Rustam (1987). Fadl Allah Rashid ed-Din. Oghuzname (in Russian). Baku, Azerbaijan: Elm. pp. 1–26; Doerfer, Gerhard (1987). "Turks in Iran (Turkish translation)". Türk Dili ve Edebiyatı Dergisi: 431. It is very strange that the word "Turkmen" still leads to confusion; in Leningrad, I saw that Iraqi Oghuz literature was cataloged under the name "Turkmen"; in fact, the word Turkman simply means an Oghuz nomad. Julian Rentzsch, "Uniformity and diversity in Turkic inceptive constructions", Johannes Gutenberg University, pp. 270-271

Improved to Good Article status by Visioncurve (talk). Self-nominated at 03:09, 1 September 2021 (UTC).

• Comment (not a review): Hello, good work on getting this article to GA status! I note that your hook doesn't include the title of the article; you will need to think of a new hook that includes the term "Turkoman" (which should be linked in bold in the hook, like so: Turkoman). This page has more information about composing a hook, which may be helpful. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 02:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

• Pinging Visioncurve in case they missed the above comment. Note that you don't necessarily need a new hook if you can integrate a link to your DYK article into the existing hook. However, if you want the image used, you'll also have to integrate that into the hook so that it includes something like (pictured) or (helmet pictured). MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 18:20, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

• The supplied hook is 221 prose characters including spaces and punctuation, well over the maximum of 200 (and it's better to be shorter than that). I have struck the hook; Visioncurve, please supply a new one that's shorter. Thank you very much. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:40, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment perhaps one of these hooks could work?

ALT1: ... that Turks in Turkey used to be known as Turkomans?

ALT1a: ... that there are Turkomans in Turkmenistan, but not Turkey?

ALT1b: ... that there are Turkomans in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Pakistan, but not Turkey?

pinging @BlueMoonset and Visioncurve theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 08:46, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

• Visioncurve overwrote their original hook (which was struck) with the following, which I have moved down here (and restored the original hook so it's available for reference); ALT2 is 163 characters:

• ALT2: ... that a majority of residents of Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Turkmenistan are descendants of Turkomans, and their languages belong to an Oghuz group of Turkic languages (pictured)? Sources: Shukurov, Rustam (1987). Fadl Allah Rashid ed-Din. Oghuzname (in Russian). Baku, Azerbaijan: Elm. pp. 1–26; Doerfer, Gerhard (1987). "Turks in Iran (Turkish translation)". Türk Dili ve Edebiyatı Dergisi: 431. It is very strange that the word "Turkmen" still leads to confusion; in Leningrad, I saw that Iraqi Oghuz literature was cataloged under the name "Turkmen"; in fact, the word Turkman simply means an Oghuz nomad. Julian Rentzsch, "Uniformity and diversity in Turkic inceptive constructions", Johannes Gutenberg University, pp. 270-271

• Full review needed now that there are hooks proposed that don't exceed the maximum length. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:59, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Article has content issues which are now tagged and undergoing a discussion at a GA review (see Talk:Turkoman (ethnonym)/GA3). Unlikely that GA status will be kept without major edits. I think its time to pass on this nomination with no prejudice against renominating if it passes the GA review.4meter4 (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Profoundness

In the early 21st century, the ethnonym "Turkmen" is still used by the Turkmens of Turkmenistan [..]

is so profound and informative. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:37, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any issues with that portion of the sentence. Actually, a more serious issue appears to be what follows it: who have sizeable groups in Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Pakistan. Why is this relevant? This entire paragraph requires a rewrite. My proposal would be:

In the early 21st century, the ethnonyms "Turkoman" and "Turkmen" are still used by the Turkmens of Turkmenistan, Iraqi and Syrian Turkmens, Turks of Israel and Lebanon, Yoruks (sub-ethnic group of Turkish people) and Karapapakhs (sub-ethnic group of Azerbaijanis).

Any additional information about the groups mentioned (i.e. descendants of the Oghuz Turks who mostly adhere to an Anatolian Turkish heritage and identity.; Most Iraqi and Syrian Turkmens are descendants of Ottoman soldiers, traders, and civil servants who were taken into Iraq from Anatolia during the rule of the Ottoman Empire) should be within the linked articles, not here. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 18:49, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

We have an article with an undefined scope. A year ago, I had suggested that rather than stuffing everything Turkmen into the page, there was need to define a fixed scope to avoid content duplication. Obviously, that fell on deaf ears.

That said, my issue was with the sentence framing. More on that soon. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Iranian Azerbaijan

The use of "Turkmen" as an ethnonym for the Turks living in Iranian Azerbaijan disappeared from common use after the 17th and 18th centuries.

Gross (1995; p. 214) offers nothing relevant. Neither does Tsutsiev (2014; p. 48-50). I do not see anything relevant in the encyclopedic entry (which is a very poor source) on Turks, either. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:42, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Both sources appear to be citations for the sentence following the one to which you linked: It continued to be used interchangeably with other ethnohistorical terms for the Turkic people of the area, including Turk, Tatar and Ajam, well into the early 20th century.. The statement about Turks in Iranian Azerbaijan lacks a citation. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 18:18, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah - the line either lacks a citation or is mis-cited (wiki-rules allow appending citations at end of paragraph). Thanks for keeping a tab; will like you to verify the rest of my accusations/allegations! TrangaBellam (talk) 18:29, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Language

[..] which included such languages and dialects as Seljuq, Old Anatolian Turkish, and [..].

Seljuq = OAT, I believe. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

"was a term for"

I wonder if there are issues here with WP:ISATERMFOR. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:15, 31 May 2023 (UTC)