Talk:UEFA Euro 2016 squads

France

Quick question: The 23 man squad for France doesn't match up with the link, and there are only two GKs in the wiki list. Am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by OuterElysium (talk • contribs) 19:14, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Tom Lawrence (Wales) & Andrej Kramaric (Croatia)

both players are actually on loan from Leicester City, should this be the club listed given that the English & German seasons are over? Jimmy Skitz's Answer Machine 10:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2016

Change Granit Xhaka (Switzerland) club to Arsenal.

Kingjxmes (talk) 13:24, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done Read the information in the lead: The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament. Xhaka has not played any matches for Arsenal and belongs to Borussia Mönchengladbach this season. Qed237 (talk) 14:08, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Player order

Let discuss the player order. Currently they are being ordered by number, but should we not order by position instead? Qed237 (talk) 16:23, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

By number seems good and logical to me. Kante4 (talk) 17:05, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Number makes sense to me, but if we do choose to order by position, then the secondary sort should be by number. Anything but number of caps! – PeeJay 18:00, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

@Kante4 and PeeJay2K3: Yes, jersey number would be second sort definately. I just like the current look with a line between the different positions and to distinguish what defenders will play, and what goalkeepers and so on. Qed237 (talk) 19:45, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I actually also prefer the look with four blocks of players: GK, DF, MF, FW (and then sorted by player number). It is more useful when you're trying to figure out who's playing for a certain team. I had thought about this before, but did not made a point about it yet because it would take quite a bit of work to go make the change on all of the squads... –Sygmoral (talk) 00:30, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2016

Hi there. Auden McGeady of Ireland and Shani Tarashaj of Switzerland are both players of Everton F.C. Kindly amend the info accordingly. Thank you.

222.167.74.128 (talk) 17:14, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

This is a complicated one, since they were both on loan at different clubs for the second half of the 2015-16 season. We really need to find a better way of indicating players who have been out on loan. – PeeJay 18:06, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

@PeeJay2K3: Agreed. Players whop signs for new club should be listed at old club as this tournament belongs to 2015–16 season. But the loans are tricky as it is right now and should be displayed somehow (i.e. on loan from...). Not sure how to solve this though. Qed237 (talk) 19:42, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Should we just add "on loan from team X" within parenthesis? Qed237 (talk) 19:54, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Please carry on with the discussion. — JJMC89 (T·C) 07:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Caps

I don't know about all the squads, but the caps and goals for the German squad are incorrect. The numbers after the last game against Slovakia are not yet included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.100.229.12 (talk) 19:37, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2016

Slovakia doesn't added to the list at the bottom. You may add it too, it doesn't matter for me. 88.235.191.193 (talk) 23:35, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — JJMC89 (T·C) 07:16, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Keeping preliminary squad mentions

We've probably discussed this before on previous squad articles, but I don't see why we need to remove mentions of if a team named a preliminary squad/when that was/who they eventually dropped (provided it's only a few names). I think this adds to the article and is a relatively small amount of prose. HornetMike (talk) 09:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Agree. It should stay. Kante4 (talk) 16:56, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

As always, I agree. – PeeJay 01:49, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Consensus

Well, I suggest we use uefa.com/uefaeuro as the only reliable source of players' clubs, to solve some confusing cases like "on-loan" or "just signed" players. Most recently, there have been issues about Ukraine's Bohdan Butko and Yevhen Seleznyov. Now, uefa.com declares Butko playing for Amkar Perm ("on loan from Shakhtar" not mentioned), and Seleznyov playing for Kuban ("just signed by Shakhtar" does not count), so we keep it. Is this OK? Centaur271188 (talk) 17:31, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

The article is very clear and has same standard as other competitions The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament. Qed237 (talk) 01:11, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Above all, this article is just a wikipedia's one, which shows information from sources. It does not need its own standard, if reliable sources already have. Most recently, about some Welsh players, I changed their clubs according to uefa.com/uefaeuro. Centaur271188 (talk) 01:47, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

We follow our official standard The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament as we always have and until you find consensus for something else, please stop your disruptive editing. Different sources say different things (and even UEFA are not consistent) so there is a consensus for this. Qed237 (talk) 11:12, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

@Centaur271188: You have not found any consensus to change from the current practise used in other tournaments and previous versions of this tournament, so please stop your disruptive editing and find consensus. The information in the lead is clear and by adding other clubs you make the article incorrect, saying one thing in the lead and displaying an other for the players. Qed237 (talk) 11:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I support using what UEFA say, as UEFA is a reliable source. Just because we did it another way for some other tournament, that doesn't mean we should so for this tournament. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based on information from reliable sources, so we should go with what the sources say, not our own interpretation of people's teams. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Joseph and Centaur. Consensus can change, and the method we use at the minute for listing what club a player is affiliated to is completely arbitrary. Personally, I think we should always list the parent club, then add a note saying "Player X was on loan at Club Y for the 2015–16 season", but since that's just my opinion, I'd be even happier to go with what the sources say. – PeeJay 12:58, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I am also in favour of listing the parent club. Number 57 19:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237: Unless UEFA makes some obvious mistakes, that rarely happens or lasts long, I see no reason to not follow it. It may seem unconsistent, but if you look from a different angle, you will see its consistency. For example, all 3 Welsh players that you edited most recently have been signed by new clubs in early 2016. UEFA does not count those mid-season transfers, from its point of view, a player is affiliated with only 1 club in a season (compare with Bohdan Butko who spent an entire 2015-16 season at Amkar Perm). More importantly, applying our own standard where there are official and reliable sources sounds like an unnecessary WP:OR. Now, if you feel OK, I would like to continue editing using UEFA source, maybe not only clubs, but also positions. Centaur271188 (talk) 09:25, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237:, @PeeJay2K3:, @Centaur271188: As far as Seleznyov is concerned, he is definitely a Shakhtar Donetsk player signing with the club prior to the completion of the 2015–16 Ukrainian Premier League season. His infobox indicates this and there are numerous references available. Butko on the other-hand is questionable and debatable. There is a news source from May 25 that he has returned to Shakhtar in preparation of the next season. Of course he also returned so that he could show to the Ukrainian National Team management that he is a player based in Ukraine, since there were threats that the management would no select players that are based in Russia. Well, that theory come to screeching halt when Zinchenko was selected! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:48, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Also while UEFA is the source most everyone is going to I tend to disagree that it is a reliable source. How can it be reliable if it is out of date? Their editors are just to slow to react to some of the changes that clubs and players make. There are numerous other sources and it should be steered by the whole WP:Football project as to what is the final input for the article. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 13:00, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

@Brudder Andrusha: @Centaur271188: @Joseph2302: @Number 57: @PeeJay2K3: @Qed237: Am I the only person to think this "The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament" can give you really "weird" results? Let's say a player moves permanently from club A to club B in the summer of 2015, yet he never plays a competitive match for club B during the whole 2015–16 season (maybe he is a youth player, a reserve goalkeeper, or just injured for the season but recovered in time for the tournament a la Jack Wilshire). So if this criteria is applied, we have to list him as a club A player, which would be extremely contradictory to what almost all people consider him as. Chanheigeorge (talk) 14:23, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: Agreed that could be a weird situation. But on the other hand what is a better solution. Go with sources which often contains errors (in that case what source is most reliable?)? Or simply list the club the player belongs to at start of tournament (that many already tries to do, for example Granit Xhaka to Arsenal because he is already their player)? Or perhaps list the team the player belonged to for 2015/16 season? Qed237 (talk) 15:07, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237: Well, I do not have a be-all end-all solution to cover all cases, but I think a criteria used for these squad pages should at least be somewhat consistent with what the "public" considers them to be the "current club". So there are a variety of cases that should be considered, just to name a few I can think of right now:

• The case above is of course a little bit extreme, but alternatively the player can move permanently in the January transfer window, or move to a country where the season starts in February/March/April/May and runs over the year (e.g. MLS), and the "convention" is most likely to list the player with his current club, not the club he last played a competitive match.
• For the Granit Xhaka case, 1) the season is over with Arsenal when the player signs 2) the transfer window is probably closed for English clubs before the tournament (I think it opens on July 1 but I am not entirely sure) 3) the Premier League official squad lists cannot change during certain periods of time. So I guess listing him with his "old" club makes sense (and at least is somewhat consistent to what many sources would list).
• What about loans (long-term and short-term), including loan recalls and terminated before the season? That's obviously the most problematic.
• It also seems weird that for free agents who leave their last club months before the tournament and are unaffiliated for a significant period of time, we list them with the club they played their last competitive match. Almost all sources would list them as unaffiliated (obviously not including those who complete a season with a club and are released at the end of the club's competitive season).
• The Arda Turan case, where a club purchases a player but cannot register them due to a transfer ban. What to do with him?

Finally, do you know (or at least reasonably guess) for example when listing these squads how FIFA or UEFA determines what the "current club" of a player is? Chanheigeorge (talk) 16:19, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: Yes there is a lot of cases to consider. About the Granit Xhaka case, previously the transfer window opened on 1 July, but in the new rules since a few years ago it opens "midnight the night after the final match" so as soon as a team season is over they can start to sign players. Only players that leaves their old club when contracts expired (bosman) have to wait until the contract has officially ended (ends 30 June so can sign new club in 1 July). So Granit Xhaka is registered for Arsenal and an Arsenal player. I am not sure what UEFA and FIFA uses, but my guess is that is has something to do about where the player is registered. Qed237 (talk) 16:32, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: And now I just saw UEFA lists Xhaka at Mönchengladbach ([1]) so it might not be registered club. Qed237 (talk) 16:38, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237: Okay, in that case, a starting point would be something like (wordings not quite exact):"The club listed is the club for which the player is currently registered with, except for those who signs for a new club between seasons, which in case, his previous club is listed". That should cover everything except loans, I think? Chanheigeorge (talk) 16:42, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: Yes that looks right. I just looked at Wales which has been editied a bit back and forth due to loans and I see that UEFA ([2]) lists Simon Church in MK Dons although he was at Aberdeen on loan from MK Dons, and Jonny Williams is listed at Crystal Palace after being loaned to MK Dons. George Williams who signed a loan to "end-of-season" with Gillingham is also listed by UEFA at parent club Fulham. It needs more investigation but it seems UEFA uses something like "The club listed is the club for which the player is registered with at the end of the 2015–16 season. In case a player was out on loan, his parent club is listed". Qed237 (talk) 16:53, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237: What about loans that carry over a season? Say multiple-season loans, or loans to a country whose season runs from January to December? Chanheigeorge (talk) 16:59, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: I have no idea, I have not seen any example for that. Need to look in deeply but dont have time now. And I can not see an easy wording for it either. Qed237 (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237: No problem, I am just throwing stuff out there for people to look into. Thanks very much for your replies and contributions. Chanheigeorge (talk) 17:05, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: Wojciech Szczęsny loaned out on a season long loan from Arsenal to Roma, after Arsenal has signed Petr Cech from Chelsea. He is listed at Roma by UEFA ([3]), i.e. not his parent club. Next question is if this is an error or on purpose from UEFA (can not trust they are right). The best way would be to ask them, but I have never got any response when trying to contact them. Qed237 (talk) 17:17, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: Emanuele Giaccherini was on a season long loan at Bologna from Sunderland and is listed at his loan clujb Bologna by UEFA ([4]). Qed237 (talk) 17:26, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237: Is it possible that the club listed is provided by the each individual association itself, so each FA may use a different criteria (so Wales may list the parent club, while another country may list the loan club). Chanheigeorge (talk) 17:30, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: That is very possible and one reason for why I dont trust UEFA. The just print the lists they receive from the national associations. Qed237 (talk) 17:42, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237: Well FIFA is the authority who is in charge of registering players, not UEFA, I suppose? So UEFA just lists whatever is feeded to them. Chanheigeorge (talk) 17:57, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Chanheigeorge: Guess so, but FIFA does not have squad list or any information about the tournament since it is a UEFA tournament. Perhaps UEFA thinks a season long loan is enough for the player to be considered at the loaning club, while shorter loans is considered as player being at parent club? Qed237 (talk) 19:05, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Qed237: That is also possible. If the player joins on a season loan, people are more likely to associate them with the loan club than the parent club. Chanheigeorge (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

What consensus?

This benign false policy which is being enforced continues to lead WP astray with incorrect information and discrepancies. Furthermore, tables in this section dealing with player representation are not for the last played club but to the club that players is signed with and registered. National team squads in National Teams articles make this article inconsistent with many of those articles and should be corrected and if not then brought to the WP:Administration. One of the main core content policies which this group should adhere to is WP:V and when referenced information which detail accurately in such articles are removed then the basis of inclusion is denied then future desire to contribute is diminished.

Again. Notations are used for clarity. References are given for Verifiability. Similar notes are made in other UEFA competitions. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 18:00, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

No.	Pos.	Player	Date of birth (age)	Caps	Goals	Club
11	4FW	Yevhen Seleznyov	(1985-07-20)20 July 1985 (aged 30)	50	11	Kuban Krasnodar

The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament. That is Kuban Krasnodar. SLBedit (talk) 20:48, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

@SLBedit: Seleznyov is not representing Kuban Krasnodar, while that information is incorrectly being aggregated in the Player representation section of the article. The baseline for inclusion is being challenged and is worthy of getting WP:Administration involved. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 21:01, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Notes:

References

Swansea and Cardiff Flags

Shouldn't the Swansea and Cardiff flags be changed to England with a footnote? They do not represent the Welsh FA in UEFA competitions. They represent the English FA. There is precedent for this in the 2013-14 UEFA Europa League article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.87.40.1 (talk) 00:25, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

That is true, but that's only because they play in the English league system. Cardiff and Swansea have a Welsh flag because they are registered with the Welsh FA, not the English. – PeeJay 01:43, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

That is very much a technicality. According to the Guardian the English FA regulates the two clubs. UEFA labels Swansea as an English club on their site, while a club like TNS is listed as Welsh. There was discussion over this in the 2013-14 UEFA Europa League article and consensus was that Swansea should have an English flag with a footnote. Shouldn't this be consistent across all football articles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.87.40.1 (talk) 19:13, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Agree, English flag with a note is the way forward. Instead of making out own rules, we should follow what UEFA reliable sources say, which is that Cardiff/Swansea are part of the English Football League system, and thus should have the English flag. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

But that's not what UEFA or anyone says. Sure, Cardiff and Swansea use the English flag if they qualify for a UEFA club competition since they'd be representing the FA, but they aren't registered with the FA. That Guardian article simply says that the Welsh clubs are now allowed to be sanctioned by the English FA, whereas they weren't before, not that they are actually English-registered clubs now. After all, if they play in England, the English FA should be able to punish them for breaking the rules. But that doesn't change the fact that they're Welsh clubs and should have the Welsh flag. – PeeJay 10:18, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2016

Shani Tarashaj is a player of Everton not Grasshoppers. Please amend it. Thanks.

220.241.108.120 (talk) 14:24, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Not done There is a discussion above on how to display clubs. The current consensus (which may change) is to display the team that the player last played for and his last competitive match was for Grasshoppers. Qed237 (talk) 14:48, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2016

Monaco (French league) should be added in the "by club nationality" section like Wales (English league), Liechtenstein (Swiss league) and Canada (US league).

Igor Desivov (Russian team) is ingured and replaced

Change him to Artur Yusupov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artur_Rimovich_Yusupov) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.41.20.10 (talk) 09:05, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2016

In the Northern Ireland squad list, change the club assigned to Chris Baird. He plays for Derby County, not Fulham! See http://www.dcfc.co.uk/team/player-profile/ DazAtt (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

 Not done "The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament." SLBedit (talk) 02:47, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2016

In response to SLBEdit refusing to update the team details for Chris Baird, from Fulham to Derby County. Chris Baird is not a Fulham player! He was on loan to Fulham from Derby County during the 2015/16 season (from February to May). He was recalled back to Derby County, from his loan, on 2nd May 2016 - http://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/article/baird-to-return-from-fulham-loan-3091954.aspx His last Game for Derby County was on 14th May 2016 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36238771

His details should be updated. The information on this page is INCORRECT! DazAtt (talk) 14:00, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

 Not done According to the BBC source he didn't play that match. According to Soccerway, he last played for Fulham on 19 April 2016. The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament. SLBedit (talk) 14:11, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Agree with SLBedit here, the information in the article is clear. It says in the lead The club listed is the club for which the player last played a competitive match prior to the tournament. Qed237 (talk) 14:12, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

The source used in the article says otherwise but yes we should keep Fulham as his club because of the last match. SLBedit (talk) 14:39, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Sortname

Can I please ask anyone who sees this note to pick a team and add the {{sortname}} template to all its players' names? I've done it for France and Romania, and Dale Arnett (talk · contribs) did Sweden earlier, so that just leaves 21. I'm going to do Wales later, so can you all pick a team or two to do so we can finally get this article working properly? – PeeJay 17:19, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

• For anyone who sees this: The "sortname" template SHOULD NOT be used for Iceland. The vast majority of Icelanders do not have family names as most of the Western world thinks of them. The typical Icelandic name is one or more given names, followed by a patronymic (or sometimes a matronymic). An exception is Eiður Guðjohnsen, whose last name actually is a family name. Regardless, Icelanders refer to one another by given names even in formal situations. — Dale Arnett (talk) 02:27, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

• Update: I applied the "sort" template to the Iceland list to account for diacritics in player names. — Dale Arnett (talk) 03:35, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

@Dale Arnett: I added "sortname" to Portugal squad but I didn't sort players by surname. Should they be sorted by first or last name? SLBedit (talk) 16:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

By the way, {{sortname}} is deprecated. SLBedit (talk) 16:11, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

True, but at present, their suggested fix is incompatible with the templates we use to construct our tables. – PeeJay 18:02, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm happy to edit the template just for this issue. To be really flexible, I could add three parameters, so that we'd have four in total: name, firstname, lastname and sortname. You'd never use all of them at the same time of course. If only name is present, nothing new happens. If name and sortname are present, it obviously sorts by sortname. If only firstname and lastname are present, it is sorted by lastname, firstname, and the name is constructed as firstname lastname. In any other combination, sortname always takes precedence over anything else if it is present, and so does name. Deal?

Examples: for France you'd be using firstname and lastname, and for Iceland perhaps you'd rather just use name and sortname. –Sygmoral (talk) 18:16, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, I left the firstname/lastname idea alone for now, and I just added the sortname parameter to the relevant templates. This does not mean that the current templates must be updated, but it can be used in the future. –Sygmoral (talk) 13:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Responding to SLB above: In Portugal, many players use a nickname instead of first and last names. I'd say sort by last name unless it's clearly a nickname. An exception to this is Cristiano Ronaldo, as those are his given names, and he's never referred to by his family name (Aveiro is his paternal surname). — Dale Arnett (talk) 07:49, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, that's pretty much what I did to clean up the page. Where a player's second name is obviously his family name, I sorted by that. The only one I had to think about was Cédric Soares, who I ended up sorting as "Cedric" and piped the link to Cédric. – PeeJay 09:18, 1 July 2016 (UTC)