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Talk:Uninterruptible power supply/Archive 3

< Talk:Uninterruptible power supply
Latest comment: 6 years ago by Sayitclearly in topic Batteries
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

UPS Unreliability: inaccurate battery run-time estimates, need for occasional re-calibration, unmonitored charging

Latest comment: 12 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

I am irritated to see that all the work I have done to discuss the unreliability of UPS standby time measurements have been completely removed from this article.

  • Lead-acid batteries slowly go bad by themselves, and most UPS's are stupid and assume battery conditions never change unless a deep-cycle recalibration is specifically performed regularly to change the UPS runtime estimates, but which itself degrades the batteries even faster than if no testing were done at all, and no runtime is available when deep-cycle calibration testing is occurring.
  • It is quite common for a UPS to activate and --whoops-- the actual capacity is just a few seconds or nothing at all and the "protected" load suddenly shuts off, when all along the UPS was claiming say 10+ minutes available and everything was fine.
  • Battery charge temperature is frequently not monitored, and charging dead batteries can lead to boiling of electrolyte and outgassing, also a condition often not detected by most UPS brands.

But whatever, I guess this is preaching to the peanut gallery since that was all already in the article previously, and deleted. DMahalko (talk) 10:31, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Cite it and write it. But not all UPSes are sold via Wal Mart and Staples. The more industrial variety checks for things like this, but it's not reasonable to expect the same level of reliablity from a $49 UPS sold between coffee filters and Dora packpacks. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:34, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I might recommend reviewing WP:V as well. Doniago (talk) 18:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Doniago, your removal of my addition to the communications section is unwarranted as citations are not required for every single addition to an article. There is no dispute that serial communications are used or that ethernet is used for communications. Your removal appears to be out of spite for voicing my complaints here.
If you're demanding citations for every sentence, why don't you go get the cites yourself?
DMahalko (talk) 21:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Consensus is that sources are needed for the information you are attempting to add. If you feel otherwise, please provide links to policies supporting your views. Your accusation that I am motivated by spite is ludicrous, especially given that I did link to policy supporting my perspective.
Per WP:BURDEN, the onus is on the contributing editor to provide sources. It is not my job to research the information you claim is accurate but will not provide references for. Doniago (talk) 21:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
The changes were in place for a quite a while here but suddenly disappeared when I posted to this talk page. It even survived Wty's discriminating editing. So the deletion is clearly purely reactionary. DMahalko (talk) 21:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
It is too bad but it appears I must take what Doniago takes to heart, and basically delete 90% of this article as most of it is uncited.
I am sorry but that is what consensus is telling us. I apologize for the loss of content that will occur, but it can not be helped.
DMahalko (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I would not generally recommend such a black-and-white interpretation of policy, but if that's what you want to do, you've got policy on your side I suppose. I would note that personally, if I'm going to engage in large-scale deletions of material that has been in the article long-term, I find moving it to the Talk page so that it is "archived" preferable to a flat-out deletion. Doniago (talk) 21:34, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

D-UPS

Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This website - http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au/project-information/diesel-ups - refers to a diesel UPS as "D-UPS" - although this Wikipedia article refers to DUPS as "dynamic UPS" - does anyone know which is correct? -- Chuq (talk) 04:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Is a rotary mechanical inverter a type of "rotary UPS"?

Latest comment: 11 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Does the rotary UPS section needs to be divided into sections? I'm seeing feedback from other editors that go in a different direction.

To me, an uninterruptible rotary UPS is essentially a flywheel and motor/generator. (The motor/generator can be the same device, because electricity freely converts back and forth to magnetism, as long as either the field coils are excited or permanent magnets are used.)

User:Arkayos is saying that no, a "rotary" UPS can also be a bank of batteries driving a literal motor and generator combination. As far as I can tell, this is basically just a mechanical implementation of the electronics called an "inverter", where DC input becomes AC output using an electronic oscillator, diodes to make intermittent DC, and capacitors for smoothing. Well, a DC motor driving an AC alternator does the same thing, but with moving parts.

But is it really a "rotary" UPS? As far as I understand it, the "rotary" aspect of a "rotary UPS" refers to the energy storage component, not that there may or may not be other spinning components that don't store anything (or don't store anything significant).

How big does a generator or motor-generator need to be, before its rotor's kinetic energy storage is considered a significant amount of ride-through energy storage?

DMahalko (talk) 18:39, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I have a different impression of what happened: different rotary products have confused the issue.
Classic online rotary UPS has motor continuously driving a generator (possibly integrated) and an energy storage flywheel. When power dies, the flywheel continues to supply energy to the generator for a short time. That's the ride through. It gives a small amount of time for things to shut down normally.
The diesel rotary UPS uses the ride through time and some energy in the flywheel to start a diesel engine that takes over the role of supplying power by rotating the generator. The stored energy is chemical, so the UPS can supply hours of backup.
Then there are offline variations. What if the shaft isn't turning when the lights go out? Something (e.g., a battery) must supply power for an orderly shutdown or to fire up the diesel engine. That can take a lot of batteries.
The DRUPS section was also edited by compressed air battery proponents. Those proponents claim a compressed air battery can start a previously idle, low inertia, (rotary) generator within 300 ms (note: no rotation at power out and no mechanical ridethrough) to provide power in the short term (10 air cylinders can provide 20 kW for 10 minutes). (I suspect the electronics are a bit more involved; the generator is probably not putting out 60 Hz. A battery may be used for the first 300 ms.) A diesel generator may take over for the long term given the builders have a "Compressed Air Diesel Rotary UPS Systems (Air-DRUPS)".
I don't think rotary UPS necessarily implies significant flywheel energy storage, but I don't want to take a position on that issue without more sources. All rotating systems will have some inertia. The hybrid rotary UPS paper doesn't rely on an explicit flywheel, but it may still use some inertia when switching to the battery. The issue behind Arkayos' "fundamentally wrong" edit is that we need some sources to provide a definition of "rotary UPS". One position is that only rotating machines (motors, turbines, generators) are required; another position requires rotating energy storage. It's a definition, and it may have changed over time.
Arkayos' talk page statements seem sound and supported by the sole reference in the section. A motor generator / inverter could be used for line conditioning. The hybrid rotary UPS paper terms it a "rotary filter". Electronic inverters are probably still somewhat fragile. There are engineering choices about how to store energy (e.g., battery vs. flywheel) and how to use the battery: whether to use an inverter directly, an inverter and an AC motor, or a DC controller and a DC motor.
The simple way out here is to start tagging and referencing the statements in the section. If you find a statement you disagree with, then look for a reference that says it. If you cannot find one, then tag the statement with a cn template. Over time, the section should get better.
Glrx (talk) 19:19, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Part of the problem seems to be that people are overlooking the word uninterruptible. If you have an emergency power supply that needs several seconds to start working after an outage, it isn't uninterruptible.
A basic non-online UPS doesn't even meet that definition, if we get really picky, since the inverter circuits aren't running all the time and only starts up when main power is lost, which is why some call it a standby power supply.
Though its startup time is extremely short, on the order of 25 milliseconds or less, so it's practically uninterruptible compared to say a diesel generator that needs cranking time of at least several seconds plus speed stabilization before the generator is actually switched in.
DMahalko (talk) 20:42, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I went looking for a definition of a rotary UPS: "The rotary UPS is called “rotary” because rotating components (such as a motor-generator) within the UPS are used to transfer power to the load. The true definition of a rotary UPS is any UPS whose output sine wave is the result of rotating generation." (Schneider Electric p. 6.) That definition goes on to exclude some systems using flywheels as energy storage.
The industry seems to have a broad classification of static (no moving parts) and rotary.
Glrx (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
I've been working for a UPS manufacturer of such "rotary" UPS. They differentiate between static and rotary. As static UPS they describe UPS which do not comprise a Motor/Generator Unit and/or a flywheel. A rotary UPS comprise at least a motor/generator unit. Then the customer has the choice, with what kind of method he want to bridge over a short power failure (Battery or flywheel). A further option is the use of a diesel engine to satisfy longer power failures. In this case, the Motor/Generator is lying and coupled to a diesel engine, otherwise the Motor/Generator is standing. So, I agree to the paper of APC.
MarvTB (talk) 21:42, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

UPS for furnaces?

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The recent ice storm has left many New Jersey and Pennsylvania suburban homes without utility power for days. Some homeowners have used outside gasoline generators. My question is whether there are UPS battery units which could keep oil or gas furnaces running, to keep homes at least warm enough to not have the pipes freeze, especially in hot water radiator systems?--DThomsen8 (talk) 01:03, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, it’s not appropriate to ask about that here. See WP:NOTFORUM "talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles. Talk pages are not mere general discussion pages about the subject of the article, nor are they a helpdesk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance." Indefatigable (talk) 18:54, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Seems like a bad idea. It seems way more efficient to just build an insulated box around the gasoline generators and use a renewable power plant/regular battery to keep the oil/gas furnace able to start. Or, use an old-school oil/gas furnace that doesn't use a battery/spark to ignite/start the furnace.

Unsourced Material

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Article has been tagged since 2009 for needing sources. Feel free to reinsert below material with appropriate references. DonIago (talk) 22:18, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Frequency variations

The voltage and frequency of the power produced by a generator depends on the rotational speed. The speed is regulated by a device called a governor. Some governors are mechanical, and some are electronic. The job of the governor is to keep the voltage and frequency constant, while the load on the generator changes. However, the governor does not respond instantaneously to load changes. This may pose a problem when, for example, the startup surge of an elevator causes the frequency of the generator to drift temporarily as the governor is adjusting to the new load, thus affecting all other devices powered by the generator. Many radio transmission sites have backup diesel generators—in the case of amplitude modulation (AM) radio transmitters, the load presented by the transmitter changes continuously and instantaneously with the signal level. This leads to the scenario where the governor is constantly trying to correct the output voltage and frequency as the load changes.

It is possible for a UPS unit to be incompatible with a generator or a poor mains supply; in the event that its designers had written the microprocessor code to require exactly a 50.0 Hz or 60.0 Hz supply frequency in order to operate, the UPS could remain on battery power, being unwilling to reconnect to the fluctuating input.

The problem of input frequency should not be an issue on a Double Conversion / online UPS. A UPS of this topology should be able to adapt to any input frequency, using its own internal clock source to generate the required 50 or 60 Hz supply frequency.

Modular

Modular UPS architecture (or topology) is a method designed to reduce cost and give UPS users flexibility in system configuration and use. Modular UPS systems consists of fixed control and power switching moldules. The battery storage element is modularized. Typical systems are designed to fit into one rack. Larger UPS system designed for large IT installations span multiple racks and consists of dozens to hundreds of modules. Battery storage “modules” are configured from one to as many as ten modules in typical medium size UPS system. Each battery “module” gives a fixed power storage capacity. One of the first companies to develop and release a modular UPS system was Gamatronic Electronic Industries LTD, an Israeli company that develops and manufactures uninterruptible power supplies, telecom power systems, control and management systems and customized power solutions. Gamatronics’ Mega V2 Modular UPS system is configured in one to twenty battery modulems. This gives the system a power capacity range of 25 kVA to 500 kVA.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Doniago (talk • contribs) 17:23, 26 February 2014

Should be updated to incorporate supercapacitors (ultracapacitors) as an alternative to batteries

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Supercapacitors, or ultracapacitors are becoming increasingly common as an alternative to batteries as a storage component in uninterruptible power supplies. For example: those by Maxwell Technologies. Currently, the article makes no mention of supercapacitors as storage (except the reference I added in the intro paragraph). It should be updated to include such systems. --Yambu (talk) 14:37, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Go electric UPS

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Should we mention go electric as one of the suppliers of UPS' ? There don't seem to be many manufacturers around, so perhaps a list can be made ? http://www.goelectricinc.com/projects.html KVDP (talk) 18:11, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I realised that I was actually reading a copy of this WP article on a UPS manufacturers website as they'd even taken the trouble to copy all the [citation required] and [dubious - discuss] tags. A quick Google search on a line of text reveals 39 copies of this page. I browsed a few and the required credit to WP was missing. From what I remember, it's too complicated to report to WP using the standard procedure. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 10:15, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

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Batteries

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The section on batteries seems out-of-date; it's all about lead-acid batteries. Sayitclearly (talk) 13:13, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

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