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Talk:Union Jack/Archive 2

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Latest comment: 16 years ago by Marco79 in topic Duplicate/overlap - Merge ...
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Scottish Independence

Latest comment: 16 years ago13 comments6 people in discussion

If Scotland gained independence, would the union flag change? Ben467 11:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I object to the word "gained"; but yes, of course it would. Doops | talk 11:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry If I offended you - how would you have worded it? Ben467 21:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, heh, it didn't actually offend me or anything serious like that. I was just being nitpicky. (Personally, I would word it something like "if Scotland becomes independent", which sounds more neutral to my ears. 'Gained' could be taken as implying that indpendence is inherently a good thing and one they've wanted for some time but been unable to get; the former of course is an opinion and the latter isn't true. But of course, as I said before: I'm nitpicky!) Cheers, Doops | talk 22:16, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It seems logical it would, likely even. But not necessarily - Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic being a case in point, where CZ kept the old CS flag, even though that was a Bohemian-Moravian-Slovakian union of sorts. The original plan was for both sucessor states to have new flags. Serbia-Montenegro also kept the old Yugoslav flag during the few years it existed. I am sure there are more examples. Petecollier (talk) 06:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

This may sound like a peculiar question but has there been any debate on what the change would look like? - An interested Canadian reader

What's to debate? With no Union there's no Union Jack. Doops | talk 02:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
There's still the union of England with Northern Ireland. At any rate, Scotland isn't going to become independent any time soon, so it's all rather moot. john k 06:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
There's been no discussion, because it's not currently an issue - at least not south of the border. It probably wouldn't arise unless the Scots ever approved independence in a referendum. Petecollier (talk) 06:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Entering the debate very late, but yes - Michael Forsyth, former Scottish Secretary, had one made up for the 1995 Tory Party Conference which had just the St George's and St Patrick's Crosses. Very ugly indeed. I have an online image here, but it's copyrighted and behind the wall of a subscription service - if you're really desperate to see him holding it: Harvie, Christopher The Road to Home Rule: Images of Scottish Nationalism Edinburgh: Polygon, 2000 is apparently where it's sourced from, although was originally included in a Glasgow Herald article. --Breadandcheese 13:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Intrigued by that. Was it like this? --sony-youthpléigh 15:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it was. I'm not sure if its St Patrick's bands maintained their odd counterchange in the Forsyth version, there'd certainly be no need for them to. There's a photograph of it on SCRAN if you have access. --Breadandcheese (talk) 00:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
No idea if that was what Forsythe used, but your image is vexiologically consistent (and damn ugly)... Petecollier (talk) 06:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Any potential future flags would depend perhaps on how changes to the UK were brought about. Constitutional change in the UK tends to be messy, with new legislation piled on top of the old, rather than starting over. Consider the situation in 1921/22 when the south of Ireland left the Union, but the UK didn't change it's name (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland) until 1927, and didn't change the flag at all.
If any part of the UK were to leave the Union, the proper way to go about it of course would be to have elections to constituent assemblies for the new state(s) and also the rump-UK to decide on new constitutions, flags etc, followed by the demise of the UK and simultaneous creation of the various sucessor states on a given date. What would more likely happen though is Westminster would pass enabling legislation, the new state would secede and be diplomatically recognised by what was left of the UK, and the UK would change its flag and style as and when it saw fit - either immediately or at a future point. Petecollier (talk) 06:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The National Flag [sic]

Latest comment: 16 years ago10 comments8 people in discussion

It is stated that the Union Jack is 'the national flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. This is tantamount to suggesting that the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' is made up of just one national grouping. Perhaps this cannot be true in fact although I dare say that those who dreamed up the idea of the UK never considered the issue!The Belfast Agreement recognises the fact that Northern Ireland is part of the Irish nation and should the majority of its people so wish they can elect to leave the UK and join with the rest of the nation on the island of Ireland. , Article 1(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland. [http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/agreement.htm#annex AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND]

It's not at all tantamount to that. For pity's sake don't read so much into the normal, everyday word "national." Not everything is politicized. Doops | talk 17:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Wiktionary defines the 'word' national as 'Having to do with a nation'. Surely the point is that there is more than one nation in the UK of GB & NI? Lets be normal then and not call the Union Jack the national flag! Lughlamhfhada 21:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
All this has been discussed to death on Talk:United Kingdom, Talk: Scotland, etc. Of course there are multiple nations in the UK; but that doesn't ipso facto mean that the UK as a whole isn't also a nation; there's no reason why one nation can't be made up of other nations. (Nor one country of other countries, etc.) And even if some people (I am not one of them) like to be persnickety about when to use "nation", "country", and "sovereign state" and get all worked-up when the wrong one is used, I really don't think it extends to adjectives -- neither "country" nor "sovereign state" has an adejective form. 'National' can used for all three. Doops | talk 21:54, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
The fact that the UK has recognized that Ireland is one Nation not two should have some bearing on this matter.

You might think that English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish nationalities are interchangable but there is no legal basis for this opinion! One might be given British citizenship but not British nationality! Lughlámhfhada Lughlamhfhada 20:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The UK is a state not a nation. --MacRusgail 16:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The word nation has different meanings in different contexts. It really is as simple as that. If anyone still can't get their head around that, try looking for the official references to the UJ as a national flag. Even if we think the official references are incorrect, Wikipedia is not the place to point it out. JPD (talk) 16:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Would it not be helpful to use the term 'national' when we refer to one 'State', and the term 'international' when more than one state is involved?

Eog1916 11:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, late to the discussion but 'The Belfast Agreement recognises the fact that Northern Ireland is part of the Irish nation' - is a complete nonsense. No such recognition has ever been made. Anyway, a nation is something with a distinct culture and heritage - the UK satisfies that, as do its constituent nations, as do parts of its constituent nations (eg, Shetland, Cornwall). --Breadandcheese 13:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
The word "obscurantist" must have invented for debates such as these. It is correct to say that the United Kingdom has never been a nation state in quite the same way as France. By the same token, there's probably not a country in the world without some constituent part which could claim a "national" identity. What makes all this even more absurd is that until only about thirty years ago, there was no debate that "British" was itself a shorthand term for the nationality of all UK people, and therefore beyond debate that the Union Flag / Jack was a national flag. The mistake people are making is that "national" equals "ethnic group". I think the history of the last one hundred years should caution everyone against that sort of tribalism 222.152.64.109 01:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC).
A nation is a group of people, not a division of land. I have to admire the Nation of Islam for their correct use of the word. -- Jza84 · (talk) 12:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

The propeganda here for 'Union Flag' is ridiculous

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This article used to use the argument that BBC English is widely regarded as correct, and therefore the Wikipedia article should follow suit. Now that the BBC use the term 'union jack' that argument has been erased. Further argument for the name Union Jack comes form Oxford, Britannica, Pears and quotes from the Royal family. It could be argued that Wikipedia is being used to fulfill an agenda.

Repeatedly edits are made to this article which infer that that Union Jack is a nick name. We all know that both names are acceptable, even if we each have personal preferences. Infering that Union Flag is more correct is wrong. It was of course the second name attributed to the flag, and is more of a description than a name anyway.

I am interested to know why so many people have such a desire to change the name of the flag, especially since many historians believe that Jack refers to King James. Seems dumb to change something that isn't fully understood.

We could also call the article the Union Jack flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.205.40 (talk) 17:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Odd observation - 1707 flag

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I took the ferry from Rosslare to Fishguard last weekend. On my way over, I saw that Stena Line had posters about the history of the company hung around the ship. The text accompanying the posters were in French, German and English, with each language indicated by a national flag. The flag used for English was the 1707 Union Flag. Was this a sly nod to the Irish passengers aboard? I wonder if anyone else has seen similar uses of the 1707 flag? --sony-youthpléigh 16:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't let the flag touch the ground

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I can hear the ghost of my CO shouting at the Soldier from 16th Air Assault Brigade for dragging the the flag on the ground. Could we perhaps find a more respectful image? Kevlaw 22:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, it isn't particularly bad form to let the flag touch the ground in British tradition (the opposite of the case in the US) - after all, the Union Flag is lowered to lie on the ground in salute, something that usually surprises the American tourists a bit. --Breadandcheese (talk) 23:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Probable Urban Legend

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Without a good citation, the story about a captured outpost secretly signalling distress without their captors noticing due to the slight asymmetry of the flag smacks of wishful thinking. It looks like someone has imagined a situation where this could have happened and it has been passed on as fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.90.152.89 (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The consensus below seems to be for this article to be merged into Flag of the United Kingdom. That is the first stage, and the consensus for that, at least, is pretty clear. A section on the merits of "Union Flag" vs "Union Jack" would be entirely appropriate there.

The best option then appears to be Union Jack and Union Flag redirecting there, with a note can on the article pointing people towards a Union Flag (disambiguation) article, but the consensus for this is less clear, so that is left up to you experts. Neıl ☎ 10:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Latest comment: 16 years ago74 comments26 people in discussion

This article was re-named from Union Jack to Union Flag with a vote of 7 to 5. The article has become prescriptive in that it is the only reference source I have heard referred to in conversation. If someone wants to appear smart by using the 'new politically correct name' they substantiate their genius by referring anyone who calls the flag by it's name to Wikipedia.

"Union flag" is a description. The Union Jack is a union flag, as is the EU Flag, and the UN flag. The Saltire, the flag of Scotland does not have to endure a battle to avoid being re-labled the Satire Flag. Union Jack is the name. Union flag is the description.

Since neither Union Jack nor Union Flag has been able to claim superiority, Wikipedia should use the most universally understood title: Union Jack

The new name is in violation of a key Wikipedia policy:

"...bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is... Article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize " - Wikipedia, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_moves

-

This test was conducted on 05/12/07 according to Wikipedia Guidelines as published at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Identification_of_common_names_using_external_references

  • The Google test. (Using Google's advanced search option, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word "Wikipedia" (as we want to see what other people are using, not our own usage). Note which is the most commonly used term).

In the UK:

about 565,000 for "union jack" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

about 148,000 for "union flag" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

In Canada:

about 51,300 English pages for "union jack" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

about 509 English pages for "union flag" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia

In Australia:

about 34,200 for "union jack" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

about 3,400 for "union flag" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

In South Africa:

about 1,470,000 English pages for "union jack" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

about 147 English pages for "union flag" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

In America:

about 763,000 English pages for "union jack" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

about 127,000 English pages for "union flag" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

Globally:

about 2,830,000 English pages for "union jack" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

about 301,000 English pages for "union flag" -royal-union-flag -grand-union-flag -european-union-flag -wikipedia.

Globally and exclusively:

about 1,450,000 English pages for "union jack" -union-flag -european-union-flag -grand-union-flag -wikipedia.

about 259,000. English pages for "union flag" -union-jack -european-union-flag -grand-union-flag -wikipedia. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 21:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


  • International organisations. (Search for the conflicting names on the websites of organisations such as the United Nations, NATO, OSCE, IMF, etc).

about 11 from un.org for "union jack" 2 from un.org for "union flag" (NB: 1 of these is in the context of European Union Flag)

5 from nato.int for "union jack" 4 from nato.int for "union flag"

2 from osce.org for "union jack" "union flag" site:osce.org - did not match any documents.

"union jack" site:imf.org - did not match any documents. "union flag" site:imf.org - did not match any documents.

  • Major English-language media outlets. Use Google News and, where possible, the archives of major outlets such as BBC News and CNN to identify common usages. Some media organisations have established style guides covering naming issues, which can provide useful guidance (e.g. The Guardian's style guide says use Ukraine, not the Ukraine).

about 4,120 from bbc.co.uk for "union jack" about 3,630 from bbc.co.uk for "union flag"

The BBC also uses the term "union jack" exclusively. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4895076.stm

about 28,300 from timesonline.co.uk for "union jack" about 1,200 from timesonline.co.uk for "union flag"

about 259 from cnn.com for "union jack" about 53 from cnn.com for "union flag"

about 386 for union-jack from news.google.co.uk about 192 for union-flag from news.google.co.uk

  • Reference works. Check other encyclopedias. If there is general agreement on the use of a name (as there often will be), that is usually a good sign of the name being the preferred term in English.

Oxford English Dictionary (Second Edition) 20-volume set 2005 printed edition refers to the flag as the Union Jack

Encyclopaedia Britannica refers to the flag as the United Kingdom, flag of the

Merriam-Webster references the flag exclusively as the Union Jack

Union Jack retrieves 1 valid entry Union Flag retrieves 0 valid entries

  • Scientific nomenclature. Check usage by international bodies like CIPM, IUPAP, IUPAC, and other scientific bodies concerned with nomenclature; consider also the national standards agencies NIST and NPL. Consult style guides of scientific journals.

CIPM: Union Jack returned 3 results CIPM: Union Flag returned 0 results -

  • TRIVIA

In the film The Queen, 2006, the flag is referred to as the Union Jack (timestamp: 00:45:56)

A key argument for the validity of the term Union Flag is the idea that in 1902 the term was stated to be acceptable in Admiralty Circular 1535. However, this item remains elusive in the National Archives. If someone has the publication then it should be made available. Otherwise, how can this be known? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Correct-o-pedia (talk • contribs) 14:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


Please be aware that the Union flag is the flag on its own the Union jack is when the flag is flown from a royal navy steeplejack. The aticle title is wrong to be the Union jack it must remain the Union flag or else it is wrong.--Lucy-marie (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

But the article is at Union Flag. Reginmund (talk) 17:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)


Further to my previous statistics and citations:

This research was conducted on 29/12/2007 according to Wikipedia Guidelines as published at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Identification_of_common_names_using_external_references


Google:

about 146 from royal.gov.uk for "union jack". about 48 from royal.gov.uk for "union flag".

about 3,840 from nytimes.com for "union jack". about 406 from nytimes.com for "union flag"

about 395 from independent.co.uk for "union jack". about 383 from independent.co.uk for "union flag".

It should also be noted here that The Independent acknowledges both terms, but only Union Jack as a proper noun. This is true of many other reputable sources.

about 21 from number10.gov.uk for "union jack" -"european union flag". 5 from number10.gov.uk for "union flag" -"european union flag"

about 1,920 from gov.au for "union jack". about 121 from gov.au for "union flag"

Google Scholar:

about 11,800 for "union jack". about 1,480 for "union flag"

Google Scholar also offers to define Union Jack, but not Union flag. un Google Books:

2190 on "union jack". 1051 on "union flag"

The following official document about the reproduction of the Australian National Flag should also be taken into consideration, which names the Union Jack as part of the flag.

http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au/publications/symbols/factsheets/australian_national_flag.pdf

In Canada, the term Royal Union Flag is the official title, but Union Jack is acknowledged as the name: http://www.pch.gc.ca/flag%2Ddrapeau/moments_historiques-defining_moments/drapeau_national-national_flag_e.cfm http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/union_e.cfm

In Australia the terms Union Jack and "Union flag of the United Kingdom" are understood.

5 from www.itsanhonour.gov.au for "union jack". "union flag" site:http://www.itsanhonour.gov.au - did not match any documents.

In Europe, outside of the UK, the term Union flag is commonly understood to be the flag of the European Union.

I seriously doubt that, do you have evidence to back it up. – Marco79 04:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't know how to cite this, but in my experience it is true - and that is quite extensive in France, Germany and Italy. It is perfectly normal to assume a conversational reference to the union flag refers to the union above you. In most of Europe's case that is the EU. Hardly a deal breaker, but still relevant. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 11:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The term Union flag is only appropriate inside the United Kingdom, since the world has many union flags. I don't think there is any reason why "union flag" shouldn't redirect to "union flag (disambiguation)".

Grand Union Flag / Union Flag

Union Jack / Royal Union Flag

Don't forget the jack of the United States is also called the Union jack, and
the jack of Norway/Sweden was also called the Union jack.
– Marco79 04:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

European Union Flag / Flag of Europe

African Union Flag

It's also called the flag of the African Union, which uses the std "flag of XXX" format. – Marco79 04:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Flags of the Confederate States of America / Confederate Union Flag

Since when has the "Confederate flag" ever been called the "Confederate Union Flag"? – Marco79 04:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Union Flag / (Norway-Sweden)

However, "Union Jack" should not redirect to "Union Jack (disambiguation)" since the other articles listed there are arguably trivial. I would be willing to guess that such a redirect would be an inconvenience to most users.

I disagree, there are many things — not just flags — that use "Union jack" as a name, and they are hardly trivial, see "Union Jack (disambiguation)" for a list. – Marco79 04:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps relatively trivial would have been better terminology. I expect that only a tiny portion of people searching for Union Jack are looking for something other than the Union Jack. Union Jack was redirected to Union Jack (disambiguation) once before and reverted in a matter of weeks. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 11:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

When referring to the flag, one can use either term, or one of a dozen others. Union flag, however, is not a proper noun. It is merely convenient terminology in the same form as federation flag, or rebel flag.

Well the current name "Union Flag" is also the original name for the flag when Charles I made a proclamation establishing the name, Union Flag, in 1634. – Marco79 04:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be appropriate for the article body to use the term "flag" to remain neutral in general references. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 21:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that this article should be neutral and as such the standard style for flags should be adopted, which is "flag of XXX". Therefore it should be merged into flag of the United Kingdom. – Marco79 04:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It's all well and good citing current policy for naming conflicts, but wrt Google with finding the frequency that something is used on the web is flawed and here is why:
I used the same method you used, but I also added "flag" to the advanced search to filter out all those site that have nothing to do with the actual flag and my results came up very different to yours, I get:

  • about 637,000 results for "Union Jack", 453,000 results for "Union Flag".
  • about 43 from royal.gov.uk for "Union Jack", about 44 from royal.gov.uk for "Union Flag".
  • about 1,010 from nytimes.com for "Union Jack", about 385 from nytimes.com for "Union Flag".
  • about 89 from independent.co.uk for "Union Jack", about 381 from independent.co.uk for "Union Flag".
  • 4 from number10.gov.uk for "Union Jack" -"european union flag", 5 from number10.gov.uk for "Union Flag" -"european union flag".
or without European Union flag:
  • 5 from number10.gov.uk for "Union Jack", 6 from number10.gov.uk for "Union Flag".
  • about 1,040 from gov.au for "Union Jack", about 124 from gov.au for "Union Flag".

Google Scholar:

  • about 5,240 for "Union Jack", about 1,480 for "Union Flag".

Google Books:

  • about 1,294 for "Union Jack", about 1,052 for "Union Flag".

Another reason why this method is flawed is because many of these pages found through the search have both the names "Union Flag" and "Union Jack" mentioned in them. And this is the same for both methods used in the search.
Therefore citing Google stats brings nothing to the table other than a very flawed system at finding what is more common. – Marco79 04:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Google searching isn't perfect, but do we have anything better? I should point out that at ["union jack" -flag site:independent.co.uk], all of the results on the first 3 pages are referring to the Union Jack, and do not contain the word flag at all. I haven't checked all 285, but it would seem they are quite happy to use the term Union Jack without feeling the need to explain that it is our flag. So the figures from this method are arguably less realistic.
It is also likely that the search terms "union jack" +flag will return mostly pages which also use the term Union flag, ignoring any pages which mention the Union Jack in a non-analytical context. To test this I entered ["union jack" -flag "-union flag" site:independent.co.uk] which returned 0 results. I appreciate that the idea was to return more accurate results but I fear it has done the opposite. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 11:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore it seems that terminology alterations and the 2006 move to Union Flag should never have happened, as this article evolved as the Union Jack.

"Retaining the existing variety

If an article has evolved using predominantly one variety, the whole article should conform to that variety, unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic. In the early stages of writing an article, the variety chosen by the first major contributor to the article should be used, unless there is reason to change it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MOS Correct-o-pedia (talk) 11:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

From what I understand this argument goes all the way back to its creation in August 2002. And from the page history it predominantly evolved using "Union Flag" not "Union jack" within the article itself. In the early stages of the development of this article the first major contributor used "Union Flag" throughout the article. The renaming of 2006 was in keeping with Wikipedia policy. – Marco79 01:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Survey

  • Support Union Jack as actual English usage. The argument that usage should still be confined to the particular use of this ensign should be made in the article, if it can be sourced. But we should call the article what most general readers will expect, and score points of pedantry in the text. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose move to 'Union Jack'. I'm tired of these constant move requests that don't help their respective articles at all. As both names (Union Flag/Union Jack) are acceptable and commonly used, and this article is already at Union Flag, then leave it where it is. Union Jack already redirects here, so as far as I can see, there is no problem. Btw I call it Union Flag *never* Union Jack, as I believe it is the more correct term. – Axman (☏) 08:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Keep at Union Flag. It is the correct name. I understand that weight should be put on WP:NC(CN). However, a line should be drawn as to what is colloquial and what is correct. I also say "Union Flag". Reginmund (talk) 19:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
  • From my encyclopaedia "union flag the British national flag. It is popularly called the Union Jack, although, strictly speaking, this applies only when it is flown on the jackstaff of a warship." Personally, I usually say "Jack", but I've always known I was wrong! So, I support Union flag for the title, but whichever is finally chosen it must be pointed out that one is correct and the other is not. Emeraude (talk) 22:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - If the paper of record (well digital paper) the BBC says For the record, the BBC website disregards the term "union flag" because of its "great potential for confusion", preferring union jack (in lower case). I say that it should be changed to match! -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 03:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The BBC may state that, but its website is littered with contradictions where they use either Union Flag or Union Jack, or both in the same article![1][2] Some examples of Union Flag usage: BBC - Five Live - Union Flag, BBC NEWS: Welsh dragon call for Union flag, BBC NEWS: Union Flag flies at Palace, BBC NEWS: Union flag to fly all year round, BBC NEWS: The Union Flag: 400 years on, etc. So I wouldn't rely too heavily on them for a standard usage. – Marco79 05:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose or merge into flag of the United Kingdom. Union Flag is the correct name to use for an encyclopaedia. It is also the preferred name used by vexillologists[3][4][5] and, according to "The Monarchy Today" website, the royal family[6]. – Marco79 05:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Why have you included a link to the FIAV website? There is nothing there about the name of this flag. The Flag Insitute pages show two vexillologists using the term "Union Flag", and one more explaining that "Union Jack" is definitely not incorrect. It certainly isnt' true that vexillologists all use "Union Flag". JPD (talk) 14:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
      • I never said "Union Jack" was wrong, just not the preferred name used by vexillologists. The links show that the Institute and its members prefer the name "Union Flag", whilst also saying that "Union Jack" is not wrong, just not the preferred name. Of coarse, probably not all vexillologist use "Union Flag", but from all flag information and sources I have come across they do prefer to use the name Union Flag. – Marco79 07:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge with Flag of the United Kingdom and redirect Union Jack there. Union Flag should be a disambiguation page for the many flags known as Union Flag. --sony-youthpléigh 12:12, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. I could support this option as it does follow the style for all the other national flag articles and could possibly stop this never-ending argument between those who prefer "Union Flag" and those who prefer "Union Jack". Eg, the French flag is at flag of France not tricolore, the US flag is at flag of the United States not Stars and Stripes, the Danish flag is at flag of Denmark not Dannebrog, etc. Note: there are also other flags and things that are called Union Jack or Union Flag. – Marco79 08:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment. Good point. If we merged these two fork articles, and then called the merged article Flag of the United Kingdom, then we could stop this daft to-ing and fro-ing renaming from "Flag" to "Jack" and then back again, seemingly without rhyme or reason. However, I disagree with Sony Youth on one point: Union Flag must point straight to the new merged Flag of the United Kingdom article: any other meanings are far less notable, and we simply need to provide a dab header pointing to a Union Flag (disambiguation) page. (By the way, if other flags are called "Union Flag", why does that dab page not exist already??)--Mais oui! (talk) 09:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support (or maybe merge per Sony youth). From what i've seen, Union Jack is the most common name for the flag (and FWIW the only name i've ever heard it called). TJ Spyke 02:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Very interesting case. Everywhere from day-to-day discussions to the skipping rhyme never turn your back on the Union Jack, it's called the Union Jack. In my experience the name Union Flag is overwhelmingly regarded as pedantry, but just the same is overwhelmingly agreed to be the correct name in some sense. Andrewa (talk) 06:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the flag's correct name is the Union Flag. "Union Jack" is simply a nickname. Are any other Wikipedia state flag articles named by their various nicknames? No. Ask youself why?--Mais oui! (talk) 09:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh yes, and while I am here: I strongly support the proposed merge with the Flag of the United Kingdom article. The existence of these two classic Wikipedia:Content forking articles just makes Wikipedia look idiotic, which may be accurate but is really not in anybody's interest. --Mais oui! (talk) 09:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Union Jack. I hope I'm allowed to vote because I'm quite new to wikipedia, although I did do editing before I got this username. When I came across this page I thought it was about the Civil War flag until I read it. Most of the links that Correctopedia supplied up at the beginning suggest that 'Union Jack' is more common. I know some people are saying its not correct, but I see a difference between 'Union jack' (small J, meaning a jack of the British Union Flag) and 'Union Jack' (big J, meaning a flag called that name). Also I came to the talk page because I thought there was only a discussion to merge this to 'Flag of the United Kingdom'. I dont understand why there needs to be two articles so I would support a merge as well. Horsesforcorses (talk) 01:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge into Flag of the United Kingdom. The articles cover sufficiently similar topics that we don't need both of them; the information here would be best presented as a subsection of that article. Terraxos (talk) 03:51, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Correct name

From above: I never said Union Jack was wrong, just not the preferred name used by vexillologists. The links show that the Institute and its members prefer the name "Union Flag", whilst also saying that "Union Jack" is not wrong, just not the preferred name. Of coarse, probably not all vexillologist use Union Flag, but from all flag information and sources I have come across they do prefer to use the name Union Flag. – Marco79 07:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

This appears to be an appeal to authority, rather than to the common name. I'll list it at User talk:Andrewa/systematic names and you might like to comment there, particularly those who think that this is the correct approach to naming this article. And think about whether this applies to all flags, just this one flag, or some but not all flags and if so which ones. Andrewa (talk) 08:59, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Several more oppose votes above appeal to what is the correct name:

  • the flag's correct name is the Union Flag. "Union Jack" is simply a nickname - pure appeal to authority.
  • Union Flag is not only the correct name, but also a common name. I'd say just as common as Union Jack - in this case just using authority as a tie-braker, which is fair enough. Whether Union Flag is a common name (my emphasis) is not in question I think; Either name is an acceptable article name, the question is which is the better name.
  • Union Flag is the correct and common name - as with the other two, the appeal to the correct name is stated first. If Union Flag is really the common name, then no appeal to which is correct is necessary.

My primary interest here is not what we name the article, but whether we have consensus here to name it something other than what our current policy suggests, in which case we should look at changing the policy. Andrewa (talk) 21:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

You say Union Flag is an allusion to authority; Wikipedia is not an anarchy - if Union Flag is what the most scholarly reliable sources assert is the official name, then this is what we should be reporting on as verifiable, right? -- Jza84 · (talk) 21:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
May I suggest that it is also a completely unsupported appeal to authority. Many vexillologists are quite happy to use the name "Union Jack", and neither name is more "correct" than the other. JPD (talk) 13:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This move request is in accordance with Wikipedia policy. It was clear that the naming war was no closer to being solved, so I worked through the policies and posted the results. We have established that Union Jack and Union flag are equally correct, but common usage and reputable sources (see above) show Union Jack to be the preferred term. Wikipedia has a policy on what should happen in such an event, and every single point in that policy suggests we use Union Jack as the article title. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 22:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I have a few questions in response to your reply; Can you cite a source that says many vexillologists are quite happy to use the name Union Jack? If so, how many allege to this and why? You say this is an "unsupported" appeal to authority - what do you mean by unsupported exactly? Where is the crux of the problem with this so called authority (how does it breach policy)? Is the authority unreliable? If so, how so? If Union Flag is no more correct than Union Jack, why the need to move it? -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, what I mean by unsupported is that no evidence has been provided for the claim that "Union Flag" is either the "official name" or preferred in general by vexillologists. What we have been provided with is a link to a site where one particular vexillologist has mainly used that name, and another describes the history of the two names, including the fact that both can be used officially. We have also been given a link to the FIAV site, but I really don't see what the point of that is, unless it is meant to be a strange reference to the fact that the vexillologist who used "Union Flag" on the other site happens to be a FIAV office-holder. It seems to imply that FIAV has a position regarding the name of this flag, without actually supporting such a claim. As it happens, such a claim would be untrue, although I am sure that you would appreciate I cannot provide a document as evidence that no such position has been taken. I also cannot off the top of my head provide a source for my statement that "Many vexillologists are quite happy to use the name 'Union Jack'", although I can find many examples of such use, starting with the Flags of the World website. At any rate, we do not need to find support for this counterclaim in order to observe that the original claim (that vexillologists prefer "Union Flag") has not so far been supported by any source, reliable or otherwise.
As for your last question, I have not suggested that there is a need to move it. While could have a discussion concerning which is the common name (which is more relevant to our policy than the official name, anyway), I am sick of the stupid repeated moves and discussions, and don't think it matters which name is used. I do, however, object to the false claims to authority in the form of statements about what vexillologists prefer. JPD (talk) 12:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
A famous vexillologist on the side on the Union Jack: Dr Mike Kearsley, secretary of the Flag Institute. One on the side of Union flag: Malcolm Farrow; but this is just trivia. They both acknowledge that either term is correct because either term is correct. Wikipedia policy allows only one name per article, and at the moment the article name violates what that policy says the name should be. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 22:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
No "evidence" for the preferred use of Union Flag by vexillologists. The link to the Flag Institute shows at least two of their members (president and chief vexillologist) prefer to use the name Union Flag, even the other link provided by the same user suggests that the monarchy prefers that name too. As far as I can tell the user who provided these links was perhaps making a calculated guess on the "officialness" and the preference for the name Union Flag. As far as I can tell from the Google searches I have done, both names are as common as each other. Therefore the claim that one is more common than the other by both camps in this RM cannot be made.
The Google searches made in accordance with Wikipedia policy indicate that Union Jack is 3.4 times more popular. If you then exclude the terms "Royal Union Flag", "Grand Union Flag" and "European Union Flag" Union Jack is 51.5 times more popular, or 46.3 if you exclude those terms from Union Jack pages as well. Tested 22:20 29/12/07. That's no small difference. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 22:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
The site (Flags of the World website) that you suggested with a preference for 'Union Jack' is not consistent, in that it uses both Union Flag and Union Jack in the page many times, which suggests that both are acceptable names for those who edit the site.
I also have a couple of flag books that have a preference for the name Union Flag, the RN, it seems, prefers to only call the Union Flag the union jack when it is displayed as as a jack flag, and as the Union Flag at other times. So, the books and links provided suggest to me that vexillologists may prefer to use the name Union Flag in official correspondence and documents, but concrete evidence for this is hard to find. To me this evidence suggests that Union Flag is the better name to use as the article's title.
I do agree with you that I too am sick and tired with all these silly move requests and discussions, which seem to get us nowhere! – Axman (☏) 02:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe this is pointless, as I generally agree with what you have said, but I would like to clarify a few things. Firstly, the fact that one or two vexillologists tend to use one term should not ever be used as "evidence" that this is true of vexillologists in general. This is a simple logical fallacy. Some vexillologists have a preference one way or the other, others do not. I didn't suggest that the Flags of the World website preferred "Union Jack", but used it as evidence that, as you say, both names are acceptable. I also have flag books which use "Union Jack". I think making any statements about what vexillologists prefer in official correspondence and documents would be a bad idea, whatever conclusion we come to about the title. JPD (talk) 15:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Argument not to merge?

Is there any particular reason not to merge the article to Flag of the United Kingdom? It seems that this would cut through the whole vexed issue of whether "Jack" or "Flag" is more common, more correct, more supported by vexillologists, etc. So what's the argument for having two separate articles about the same flag? I'm not seeing it jump out at me from the comments above. -GTBacchus(talk) 04:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm torn on this myself; I see logic in merging and keeping them seperate. Certainly the Union Flag is incorporated into other flags (most famously perhaps, the Flag of Australia) and I can see why an article about that may be useful. -- Jza84 · (talk) 22:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Correcting the damage

The wording of this article until quite recently was increasingly belittling towards the term Union Jack. Wikipedia has essentially been used to spread false information. This could be regarded as an agenda and the damage must be corrected. It should be stated in no uncertain terms that Union Jack and Union flag are equally correct, and equally official. The page can have no agenda to promote a particular term as superior, and has a responsibility to equate them. While at this time the article is reasonably phrased throughout, it has in the past stated absolutely that Union Jack is a nickname and not official

I believe Wikipedia has (past tense) played a major role in mis-educating the public, since no other major reference source has significantly altered, and most of the British media uses still uses or has reverted to Union Jack (citations above). That top spot on Google is a powerful thing. Shouldn't this page be the place to set the record straight, rather than nurturing a misconception? Correct-o-pedia (talk) 02:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

That's not entirely true, the British media is very mixed on the subject. Some use "Union Flag", whilst others use "Union Jack" or vice-versa. Some of the links I've given above indicate this. I have not seen any "reversion" to the use of Union Jack and none of your links above provide sufficient evidence that this is occurring.
My example of a media organisation that has reverted to the term Union Jack was the BBC: ["the BBC website disregards the term "union flag" because of its "great potential for confusion", preferring union jack (in lower case)."] If I remember rightly, the BBC trialled the term Union Flag from 2005 to 2007, and it didn't go down well at all. There was an announcement this year, but I can't find it anywhere (TBC). Correct-o-pedia (talk) 11:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I have seen no evidence of "reverted to the term Union Jack was the BBC". As I stated above:
"The BBC may state that, but its website is littered with contradictions where they use either Union Flag or Union Jack, or both in the same article![7][8] Some examples of Union Flag usage: BBC - Five Live - Union Flag, BBC NEWS: Welsh dragon call for Union flag, BBC NEWS: Union Flag flies at Palace, BBC NEWS: Union flag to fly all year round, BBC NEWS: The Union Flag: 400 years on, etc. So I wouldn't rely too heavily on them for a standard usage."
This indicates that they have not reversed any policy and both names are still equally used. There has also been plenty of arguments by readers of the BBC website opposing the use of the term "Union jack". – Marco79 00:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Then because both "Union Flag" and "Union Jack" are "equally correct, and equally official" and this "page can have no agenda to promote a particular term as superior, and has a responsibility to equate them" and are equally common, then wouldn't it be better to merge this article into the standard flag name format of flag of the United Kingdom, so as not one name is superior to the other?
I wouldn't block a move to Flag of the United Kingdom, but I think the article should be at Union Jack as an official term, the name, Wikipedia guidelines and actual English usage (see enormous argument above). Correct-o-pedia (talk) 11:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
But "Union Flag" is also an official name and is part of actual English usage too. So because these two names are so divisive and no one is agreeing on which one should be used (I think it should remain at "Union Flag"), it would be best to merge this article into flag of the United Kingdom, this I think, would stop these arguments between which one is "correct", "common", etc, and perhaps (hopefully) stop these continual move requests. – Marco79 00:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You right that Wikipedia should not nurture misconceptions and I was not aware that this article was doing that in the past. – Marco79 05:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Duplicate/overlap - Merge ...

Latest comment: 16 years ago59 comments10 people in discussion

In looking at the above discussion over whether to call this article "Union Flag" or "Union Jack", I first though what is the difference between this article and Flag of the United Kingdom?

As the opening lines says, "The term Union Flag refers to the de facto national flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland also known as the Union Jack." Wikipedia is not a dictionary. If the subject of this article is the same as the subject of another then the two must be merged. --sony-youthpléigh 13:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Good point, and a related question is, What should the merged article be called? and I'd again vote for Union Jack. But if anybody thinks it should be Flag of the United Kingdom, then it would be good to introduce that as a third option in the survey section above, because if enough people think this, then it's a waste of time even deciding which is the second-favourite name. Andrewa (talk) 09:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
A number of people in the discussion above already support Flag of the United Kingdom, although it's not one of the two official options. Do you think it's worth it to set up another survey, using something like approval voting to decide among the three suggested names? -GTBacchus(talk) 02:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Another survey seems like unnecessary bureaucracy. As for the real issue, I think the argument for having two separate articles was to do with the fact that the Union Jack has many uses which are in some sense not uses of the Flag of the United Kingdom, to the extent that it is an official flag of Canada as the "Royal Union Flag". I don't think this is a reason to have two articles, but it does add more weight to the idea that the title of the merged article should be Union Flag/Jack rather than the more standard "Flag of the United Kingdom". JPD (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
It may be "unnecessary bureaucracy" for another survey, but if this one can establish a consensus for one of the now three suggested options, perhaps it's the best way to go to have another survey. I have to disagree with your assertion that Canada's use adds more weight to the idea that the title should be Union Jack, as they have officially called it in Canada the "Royal Union Flag" not "Royal Union Jack", so therefore adds more weight for this article to be titled Union Flag not Union Jack. – Axman (☏) 02:55, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Read more carefully. I said that use outside the United Kingdom (including, but not restricted to, Canada) adds weight to the idea that both Union Flag and Union Jack would be better titles for the merged article than Flag of the United Kingdom. JPD (talk) 15:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't get it. What's the difference between saying "the Union Flag is incorporated into the flag of Australia," and "the flag of the United Kingdom is incorporated into the flag of Australia"? How does its use in other contexts indicate what we should call it? -GTBacchus(talk) 21:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I would argue that in this case, the Union Flag incorporated into the Flag of Australia is not the Flag of the United Kingdom, and that is not the role in which it is placed there. Of course, it's the same flag - much in the same way as the Queen of Australia and the Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland look very similar indeed. --Breadandcheese (talk) 12:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, nothing. I think it actually adds more weight to the argument for "flag of the United Kingdom", because the description is saying that the Australian flag incorporates another country's flag in its design, which is true. I don't see what is wrong or hard about piping the link so the reader will see "Union Flag" — for those who really detest flag of the United Kingdom — and will link to the "flag of the United Kingdom" article, as they are one of the same! I will also note that the Encyclopædia Britannica has no problem with using "United Kingdom, flag of", with other articles using either "Union Flag" or "Union Jack" to link to the "United Kingdom, flag of" article. So why would we have a problem with using flag of the United Kingdom for the merged article name. I'm actually starting to prefer one article using the standard "flag of XXX" instead of this article being split into two similar articles about the same topic or merged into one using one of two disputed common names.
Also, there are a number of articles that either incorporate "Union Flag" or "Union Jack" into their names or are their names, but "flag of the United Kingdom" is the only article that incorporates or has it as its name into just one article's name. – Marco79 01:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, which name is used in general text depends on the context, what is being said, and which point is being made. GTBacchus' longer version is quite unnatural unless some is explicitly trying to make the point that Marco refers to, but that is irrelevant because, as Marco points out, these issues are dealt with by piping the links. The question here is what to name the article, not how to write about the flag in other articles. I think the fact that the flag (here I mean the flag itself, not merely the desgin as part of another flag, although that may also be relevant) is used (sometimes with official sanction) in a way that less directly refers to the United Kingdom is a tiny bit of weight against "Flag of the United Kingdom". Not a huge amount of weight, but some. I wasn't trying to make a big deal of it, but simply comment on how the reasons the article was split in the first place may affect the choice of name. Having said that, I should perhaps admit that I am not a fan of the "Flag of XXX" standard in general. It is useful to have such a default, but on the whole is not quite in the spirit of the naming conventions and doesn't always work. JPD (talk) 11:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the current results from the survey there seems to be growing support for a merge into Flag of the United Kingdom by those as a first choice and those as a second choice. I think it is probably the best option from all the arguments given so far. – Marco79 05:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I think that this was archived a little prematurely.

It seems that the opinions are in fact quite diverse, and the unique opinions at [flag of the United Kingdom] don't seem to be in favor of a merger into that article. I think the points raised there deserve more consideration. The Union Jack is not only the flag of the United Kingdom, it is a royal banner adopted by the United Kingdom and used differently throughout the Commonwealth. To merge Union Jack into flag of the United Kingdom would be the wrong way round on this technicality, and this is an encyclopaedia. We shouldn't knowingly introduce inaccuracies. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 15:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Summary of remaining arguments

The article should be titled Union Jack because:

  • The name has been shown to be equally correct and official.*1
  • The name is the name of the royal banner for all uses.NB *5
  • The name is more common in actual English usage.
  • The name has been shown to be vastly more popular on Google, in all regions.*7
  • The name has be shown to be vastly more popular in reputable sources.
  • The name is the only one used exclusively by many respected reference books, including but not limited to Chambers, Longman and Meridian-Webster (widely accepted as defining American-English).*4, 8
  • The name is the only one used by the United Nations.
  • The name is more appropriate outside of the UK, especially in countries which have their own union flag.*9
  • The name is less ambiguous.*10
  • The name applies to all contexts of the flag referred to in the article, including the Commonwealth, and use by the Royal Navy*11.
  • The name is not limited by political, historical or cultural context.
  • We base decisions on consensus, and there is a broad consensus behind our policy of using common names (as pointed out by GTBacchus in April 2007).*12

The article should not prioritise the term Union flag because:

  • The term Union flag should not be used as it nurtures the mis-conception that the term Union Jack is incorrect. If readers are re-directed, then they are corrected. Readers will, on some level, ask why the name Union Jack is not used, even with the clarification in the terminology section, so long as the jack flag myth is around. This constitutes prescription.
  • There is no consensus on the name. To name the article as such would oppose what our current policy dictates.

Correct-o-pedia (talk) 11:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I propose that a summary of arguments for Union flag is complied here. I found two in the text above which were it is more correct and official, which is ludicrous and it is preferred by some vexillologists which is true of Union Jack as well, leaving zero.


The article should be titled the Union Flag because:

  • The name is preferred in recent British govt documents.
  • The name is preferred by some publications.*1
  • The name is just as common as the term union jack.*2
  • The name is actually the official name of the royal banner.*1 NB *5
  • The name is preferred by the Flag Institute, and used in its publications.*13
  • The name is on equal footing with union jack in many reference books and many dictionaries.*1
  • The first author of the article used Union Flag.*6
– Marco79 14:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
  • The govts of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland also prefer to use the name Union Flag in their documents.
– Marco79 15:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The article should not prioritise the term Union Jack because:

  • If the term Union Jack is used, then it implies the name Union Flag is incorrect, which is a false message to send.
  • Union jack is the preferred name of the flag when flown at sea, on the jackstaff.*3
    • Royal Navy prefers to call it the union jack when flown at sea on the jackstaff, therefore in general use.
  • Many things are called Union Jack, not just the British flag.
– Marco79 15:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Please do not break the list to comment. Use an * and comment below to the preserve legibility of this summary.

The outcome of this discussion should also apply to what term is used as the primary noun when flag alone would be poor grammar. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, with "just using the noun flag alone would be poor grammar." There would not be anything wrong in using "flag" as the primary noun. – Marco79 14:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
To clarify, I was refering to when "flag" alone is poor grammar, not that the word alone constitutes poor grammar. There are occasions. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 20:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Comments

See superscript references.

  • 1. The statement is neutral and applies to both terms.
  • 2. "The name is just as common as the term union jack." - In which countries? Google indicates otherwise.
  • 3. "Union jack is the preferred name of the flag when flown at sea" - but, legally, equally correct on land.
Correct-o-pedia (talk) 20:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 4. Definitive AE usage (Webster) is arguably irrelevant for any discussion on the correct name of the British flag. Surely BE references are more valid in this instance?
Agreed, but my point with American English refers to the name which most users would most easily recognise. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 11:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 5. It may have been established by Royal decree, but the Union is not a royal banner, it is a national banner (where appropriate, Royal family members utilise a banner of their own arms). Someone is confusing Canadian common usage here. It is arguably also not a banner - the various crosses do not constitute the arms of the various home nations. Flag would be a more appropriate term?
Petecollier (talk) 23:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
It is not a banner of arms, but "banner" may not always mean a banner of arms. At any rate, it is actually a royal flag, which has become also used and approved (although not particularly formally) as a national flag. JPD (talk) 12:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
And when a dispute arises and a decision cannot be made due to equally valid reasons then use what was used by the original author that was not a stub. – Marco79 12:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 7. Counting Google hits is a dubious practice and should not be relied upon to obtain what is popular, common, etc. to claim correctness.
It is actually the recommended method for determining popularity. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I know, and it's disappointing that it's recommended, knowing how flawed the method is. – Marco79 05:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Google is not perfect, but 3 million hits vs 3 hundred thousand is conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Well I got a Google result that was much closer, which was about a 60/40 split between the two. – Marco79 11:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 8. These publications (with the exception of M-W) also use "Union Flag" in their texts, so "Union Jack" is not exclusive.
Untrue. None of these dictionaries define Union flag. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Many of them — in conjunction with "Union jack" — do define Union Flag in their texts, such as Chambers, Collins and Oxford. – Marco79 05:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, as part of the Union Jack entry. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 9. Those countries that have a Union flag also have a Union jack.
The topic is about Union Jack as a proper noun, and on top of that the majority of those countries are not English-speaking. National jack is a clearer term. Your logic promotes the use of terms like 'Union army' as a short description. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 10. This is just as ambiguous as Union Flag. Flag of the United Kingdom is far less ambiguous than both.
No it isn't. In reality, where we live, the whole English speaking world knows that the Union Jack flag refers to this flag. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
True, but they also know that the Union Flag means the same thing, hence the ambiguity between the two names. – Marco79 05:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree that a lot of young people seem to, but not that the whole English speaking world currently associates Union flag with the Union Jack. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, probably not everyone, that would be hard to determine, but many do. – Marco79 11:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 11. The Royal Navy differentiates between the two names.
And Union Jack applies to the use of the flag at sea by the Royal Navy (which is covered in the article) as well as use throughout the rest of the world. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Particularly when at a ship's bow. And when on land or as a command flag, refer to it as the "Union Flag" as described by the RN. – Marco79 05:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes they do, but the Royal Navy's view is one of significance for use off-shore, and on ships, and that is what is relevant to part about the Royal Navy. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 12. There was a broad consensus on both sides for a merger into flag of the United Kingdom.
– Marco79 12:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
No there wasn't. Count. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I did count and, I assume, the Admin who closed the RM did too, but RMs are about more than the "vote", RMs are also about the comments made too. Therefore, there definitely was a broad consensus for a merge into flag of the United Kingdom, and that was what the Admin recommended. (Read the RM closure note.) – Marco79 05:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the point of a vote if the count is not binding? If the RMs are about the comments made too, then Wikipedia should institute a formal argumentation system, to both guide participants and ensure a structured debate takes place. To aid me in further understanding the decision taken can somebody please explain how the vote was actually counted and the result of this. Thanks --Dorzey (talk) 12:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I counted back when it was archived, and there were 9 votes for each name, 8 (overlapping) for a merge into flag of the United Kingdom and 5 for a merge into this article.
The reason that votes are not absolute is because Wikipedia is not a democracy. A democracy listens to the majority, whatever their view. It would be far too easy for a democratic system to be abused. Instead, Wikipedia advocates discussion and well structured arguments which might lead to a consensus. The method assumes objectivity. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't see any merge opinions directed towards a merge into this article. As far as I could tell all the merge opinions were directed toward a merge into flag of the United Kingdom. But I think we should trust the Admin's decision, as he hasn't shown any biased towards either name, like we have. – Marco79 11:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • 13. With regard to the Flag Institute, the organisation itself does not impose one name or the other, and articles are allowed to be submitted to the magazine and website unchanged. That the title of the page regarding the Union Jack uses the term Union Flag is the choice of the author. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
A choice endorsed by the Flag Institute to indicate its preference. – Marco79 05:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Lol. No. Nice try though. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad you find that amusing, the truth often is. – Marco79 11:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Reading over the above, the only justification for the title to be "Union flag" seems to be that that term is now preferred by UK governments (with a lower-case F) and the Flag Institute. Laughably, most government documents have to clarify that by 'Union flag' they mean the Union Jack. There are many more reasons to call the article Union Jack and these are more in line with Wikipedia rules (see summary above). The neutral stance is therefore to call the article Union Jack (as I think we know). As I have said before, this page is prescriptive. The myth that the name is incorrect has long since been dismissed, so what can the problem be? Personal dislike? Such opinions cannot be allowed to override the naming policy. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

In government documents, the various UK governments have shown a preference for "Union Flag" (with a capital F, although sometimes with a lower-case F)[9][10][11] (pp. 57–58), but wrt some legislative documents, these documents have used "Union flag" (with a lower-case F). In these same documents the Union Flag has also been acknowledged as being called the "Union Jack", but has placed the latter inside brackets indicating that Union Flag is the first desired name to be used and Union Jack is a variant name.[12] As also mentioned above, the monarchy prefers the name Union Flag (with a capital F) and as such uses it as the primary name throughout its description page for the flag.[13] The Flag Institute — an authority on flags — also has a preference for Union Flag (with a capital F) and also uses this name on its website and in its publications.[14][15]
Correct-o-pedia's assertion that the "neutral stance" would be to call the article Union Jack is not right and wouldn't be desirable. As both names seem to be equally controversial the most neutral stance would be to merge this article into "flag of the United Kingdom" — using the standard "Flag of XXX" format — and not to call it either "Union Flag" or "Union Jack", but possibly either the UK flag or British flag instead.
This article is not prescriptive and has in fact never been, it has, however, been descriptive and as such cites relevant sources on the use of the flag's name(s). The only (laughable) reason it could be called prescriptive is because it uses the official "Union Flag" name rather than the "Union Jack" name. And if it ever perpetuated a "myth" that Union Jack was incorrect it was soon corrected with changes made to the article soon afterwards. – Marco79 05:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the recent adoption of the term by government is in dispute at all, but such use does not outweigh all the other uses everywhere else (including in overseas governments). As I stated above, Wikipedia article names are based on the common name, and we have conclusive proof that the name, the Union Jack, is used unstintingly in all English speaking regions of the world, (see also) and is used by the majority of reputable sources (citations above). But we have already discussed this, which is why there is a summary.
As a side note, in my experience the Royal Family always says Union Jack. I've heard it several times. If I come across any resources I will cite them. Royal.gov.uk is not a representation of language actually used by the monarchy themselves. Furthermore, the flag is referred to as the Union Jack on almost every other page on the Royal website. All this is already covered (with evidence) above, and it makes little sense to duplicate it all. With regard to the Flag Institute, the organisation itself does not impose one name or the other, and articles are allowed to be submitted to the magazine and website unchanged. That the title of the page regarding the Union Jack uses the term Union Flag is the choice of the author. The articles in Flagmaster Magazine can and do address the flag by either name. Do not forget that the Flag Institute is a club.
While I agree that flag of the United Kingdom is a neutral location, it has not been shown to be an accurate page title for all the uses of the flag. The page title has long been in dispute, and should be determined by the naming convention[1] [2] [3]. Wikipedians should not seek to determine who is "right" or "wrong", nor to attempt to impose a particular name for POV reasons. They should instead follow the procedure below to determine common usage on an objective basis. Which is what was done on this RM from the beginning, and showed indisputably Union Jack to be the most appropriate title by far. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 13:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The use of the name by the UK government does indeed outweigh all other uses of the name as used everywhere else (especially foreign governments), because the primary use of the flag is to represent the United Kingdom, its people and government.
Proof?? I'd have to question the methods in how those results were obtained, seeing that most of them were obtained through Google searches and as this is a dubious practice, the results should not be relied upon too heavily, as they can vary from day-to-day, week-to-week, etc.
Well, I've also heard Union Flag used by the royal family, but because I can't cite this either, I've used the website, which represents the royal family on-line, especially the Queen. As the Flag Institute is a club, then by that same logic the UN is a club, the Commonwealth is a club, even each nation state could be considered a club!
All the other uses of the flag are trivial compared to its main use, which is to represent the British state and its people.
I agree that the name has been in dispute for a long time and if a neutral title was chosen, such as flag of the United Kingdom, perhaps then, the matter can finally be settled. The name "Union jack" is not neutral. I think this is a special case where the naming conventions fail it, and as such should go to the neutral title of "flag of the United Kingdom". – Marco79 12:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Many of the arguments you have just attempted to make are not well researched, in some cases sensible, or in some cases at all true. Do not treat this a a personal battle that you must 'win' at any cost. This is a publically owned article, currently in violation of policy. There is a broad consensus behind that policy.
Your comparison between the status of the UN and the Flag Institute is disappointing, and does not do your argument any credit, nor is it actually relevant (since the Flag Institute does not take a policy on terminology).
Finally, Wikipedia staes explicitly in the naming convention pages that use of a term in Government does not outweigh the most popularly used term. Convention: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. This convention was established so that discussions like this needn't be necessary. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
My arguments are just as well researched as yours. Do not accuse me of treating this as a personal battle! This is not a publicly owned article, it's owned and operated by the Wikimedia Foundation according to the policies and procedures it has set-up for itself. ("Publicly owned" implies government involvement.)
It's regretful that you feel disappointed about the comparison I made, but it was only a reply to your irrelevant remark making the organisation sound less than what it is.
It's nice of you to keep lecturing to us on naming conventions, but it doesn't help your case to keep repeating it, we know what they are.
And after all that you still haven't built a strong case for a name change, which was reflected in the result of the RM. – Marco79 05:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
We're getting off-topic, but the articles are licensed under the GFDL. The are not owned by the Wikimedia Foundation (NB. Researched?). I can see your point about the sound of the phrase 'publicly owned' but it's not really an implication.
The reason I quoted something for you again just now, is that you thought that the use of one term on Gordon Brown's personal website (a term used less often site-wide) was the only definitive source. Conveniently, one which supports what you want.
Your disregard for so many policies does not weaken this argument, which is largely structured around community-wide consensus on those ideas. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 14:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
It wasn't researched, I just gathered from the documentation that the article space was owned and operated by the Wikimedia Foundation and the article content was licensed under the GFDL.
What does Gordon Brown have to do with this, I never mentioned him. Anyway my sources come from British government documents, the Internet, reference texts, legislation, etc.
I'm not disregarding any policies, I've taken them all on-board. This is starting to get personal, which doesn't belong here. – Marco79 11:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

An important note on grammar

To clarify, the discussion of this subject (on the entire history of the talk page) concerns Union Jack as a proper noun, not Union jack where Union is the proper noun. The later is a jack flag by definition, as pointed out by Horsesforcorses and Lucy-marie. By the same logic Union flag is an undeniably accurate term in context, which is why it is written that way in legislation. Correct-o-pedia (talk) 20:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Version during the interregnum

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

There was a further version of the Union used during the interregnum (can't remember off hand if it was during the Commonwealth or the Protectorate) that was the original Jacobean union, with a blue shield in escutcheon which bore the Irish harp. Should this not also be included? Can an image be found, or created?

Petecollier (talk) 05:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The flag you are talking about is here. It's certainly worth a mention. Other worthwhile mentions are here. --sony-youthpléigh 00:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
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