Talk:United States

United States, U.S.

At the very least, the short forms "United States" and "U.S." (two periods standard in American English) should be restored to the first sentence of the lede (not part of an editorial footnote), as they become the country's default names until the end of the article. Incorporating them into a blind EFN violates standard usage in reference works, in which alternative names and initialisms in the text are called out, once, for the reader. To do otherwise is bad form in an encyclopedia. The other names (USA, U.S.A., America) are commonly used the world over, and I think they should appear outside an EFN as well, but they're a minor concern. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:33, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I just boldly restored specifically the "United States" into the lede, though I'm fine with the other names staying in the footnote. TheWikiToby (talk) 17:33, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Good. The short form "United States" is an exception. I can live with the other terms in a footnote, too. Maybe all that boldface type was a bit unsightly. Mason.Jones (talk) 17:49, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Good call.....this is what are featured in good articles do. Moxy🍁 18:39, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

I see this has been reverted without any effort to join the two chats.... let's see if they do so now. Blind reverts are always a problem I guess we have to deal with. Weird thing is removing the source that explains things.Moxy🍁 19:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

It's unavoidable for an article this big. Many users will be confused by the immediately visible changes in the first sentence. We have to keep referring to the talk page to show them our motivation behind it. The problem will only gradually solve itself over time when most users got used to it. Maxeto0910 (talk) 19:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Most people understand that U.S. and US are equivalent in this context. This can reduce the unsightliness. Senorangel (talk) 02:51, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I suggest the lead should be "The United States of America (USA), commonly known as the United States (US) or America, is..." since "United States" and "America" are two much used short form names for the country and are commonly used by politicians, businesses, media, athletes, musicians, and everyday people. The initials "USA" and "US" should also be in the lead since the country is commonly referred to as such (especially in sports and media) and other articles about countries or political organizations also include their initials in the lead such as the European Union or Saudi Arabia. The initials with periods ("U.S.A." and "U.S.") do not have to be included in the lead and can be explained as another form of writing the country's initials in the etymology section or in a note. Colloquial forms such as "the States", "Merica", "U.S. of A.", etc, do not belong in the lead since they're very informal and not used widely. Dash9Z (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

This is the wording we had before—and it would be later disputed or reverted. Some editors also felt encouraged to tack on other alternative names like "the States" (which has no business near any encyclopedia). The standard American spelling "U.S.", with periods, is used throughout the article and must be cited that way on first mention. In general, your suggestion opens up the floodgates for busy "improvements" in the lede sentence. For that reason, I think the simpler version is best. Mason.Jones (talk) 23:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

"(U.S./US)" looks weird in the article. It should say (U.S. or US). Things were fine before HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 00:41, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

"Or" it is. However, this all may change back to previous format (United States, officially the United States of America...), as that one has its supporters. Mason.Jones (talk) 01:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I absolutely prefer the previous format. It's shorter, more concise, and makes the first paragraph of the lead look less bloated, while at the same time gives readers some context in the explanatory note, which also contains a source, and even loses one sentence about colloquial names. It's also pretty much the style how many good and featured country articles have it. The United States is just known by many names around the world, and, depending on the region, it could be argued to include a plethora of them, which is why we have to compromise here, and I think the previous format was quite neutral in this regard. Perhaps, we could restore the previous version with the note and give some initials (though this, as Mason.Jones wrote, would be subject to many changes and frequent discussions about which to include; including all four would make the first paragraph of the lead very bloated again), but personally, I absolutely prefer the simplest and most concise form: "The United States, officially the United States of America[note explaining abbreviations, colloquial names, and so on]". Maxeto0910 (talk) 05:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@Maxeto0910 -- I prefer your version, just adding the initialism "U.S." (used throughout this article, so it should be introduced to the reader). Thus: "The United States (U.S.), officially the United States of America, is a country..." As you say, other alt names and abbreviations are pretty subjective; they can be addressed in the EFN and/or hashed out under "Etymology." Mason.Jones (talk) 17:15, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I am still of the opinion that the version with the explanatory note would be the most neutral and concise way of putting it. Perhaps it should be restored when there are no convincing counterarguments? Maxeto0910 (talk) 16:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break concerning "the States"

Above, Mason.Jones wrote alternative names like "the States" (which has no business near any encyclopedia). This claim is contradicted by evidence from corpora and dictionaries, which indicate that it is common in both speech (see Longman definition) and in writing (see corpora that follow).

• the comparison ngram between "back to America/the US/the USA/the States" shows a clear preference for "back to the States" in 2022 in the American English corpus

• 43% more common than "back to America"
• twice as common as "back to the US"
• 14.6 times more common than "back to the USA"
• "back to the States" has been the most frequent form in this phrase since 1941.

• In the British English corpus the 2022 results are a bit less pronounced: "back to the States" is:

• 15% more common than "to America"
• 90% more common than "to the US"
• 6.2 times more common than "to the USA"
• "back to the States" has only been the most frequent form in British English since 2009.

pedantic note: case is discriminating, i.e "the States" ≠ "the states" ... cf. [1]

Similarly, Longman, Cambridge, Merriam-Webster, and Collins all have a separate entry for "the States" (with Longman helpfully explaining that it is a spoken form most commonly used when speaking of the US from abroad), while Oxford explains that The United States of America is usually shortened to the U.S.A., the U.S., the States, or simply America. As such, I would encourage everyone expressing opinions to stick to data and RS. A brief mention of "the States" is justified by RS.-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 18:34, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

By "nowhere near any encyclopedia," I was half joking. I simply meant that "The States" has no place in the introduction to this article (which a few overeager editors are pushing). "The States" is an informal, conversational term, and most often the spoken lingo of British people and American expatriates. It doesn't rise to the level of "USA" and "America"—both widely used in writing and in broadcasting throughout major English-speaking media. The style book of the Economist even gives "America" as the default name to be used in all its text articles about the U.S. "USA" is used throughout the German-speaking media. "US" is used in headline and interior articles of the UK press. "The States", on the other hand, is a slang term of chatting tourists, travel articles, YouTube features about "Taylor Swift's return to the States", etc. It can certainly be discussed under "Etymology" as a conversational term, but it should not appear in the lede along with "U.S.", "USA", or "America." Just like "Murica", it's not in that category. Mason.Jones (talk) 19:37, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Fully concur with User:Mason.Jones. I couldn't have said it better. As I pointed out above, "the States" is in the wrong sociolinguistic register. Most people understand by the time they're around 15 or 16 years old that "the States" is slang and "the United States" is formal. (I already knew that by the time I was 12, but I was gifted and went to CTY.) This encyclopedia is written in formal written English. Wikipedia is not a blog where casual slang and anything else goes. See WP:NOT.

I just poked around Google Books and saw what is going on. "The States" is much more common in British use than in American use, but when you read it in context, it is still clearly an informal slang term. And to be clear, I am very familiar with British English. California is home to many British expat intellectuals who fled the UK's decaying educational system for greener pastures, which is why as a high school senior, I read Chaucer with a graduate of Cambridge. --Coolcaesar (talk) 20:12, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

In the spirit of sticking to reliable sources rather than advancing an undocumented opinion, I'll just note that banks and tax accountants frequently use the term on their websites as does the Department of Homeland Security ("Study in the States"), and that an acting Secretary of State recently used the term when addressing the National Governors Association. So to call the term "slang" on a par with "Murica" (not found in Oxford, Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, Longman, etc.) is misguided. (The correct linguistic term would be "colloquial", "familiar", or indeed "conversational".) While mentioning "the States" in the etymology section does seem like putting the cart before the horse, if that should be the final consensus, that's fine with me. (done)  :) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 05:46, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Adding a reference to Hemingway in the literature section?

I'm a little surprised there's no mention of Ernest Hemingway or any of the "Lost Generation" writers in the section on American literature. While figures like Twain or Thoreau are, generally, more well regarded as writers in the United States. Figures like F. Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway not only took America as their subject, but enjoy widespread influence and are historically relevant to the development of an American literature.

I'd like to back this up with more sources, but before I do, I'd like to see if there's anyone who works on this article who'd be receptive to this change. I think it would improve the article to include a sentence or two. GreenHillsOfAfrica (talk) 22:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

go for it. BarntToust^(Talk) 15:39, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Minor Question

I'm not familiar with the treatment of integral (grammar) articles on WP (e.g. the article "The" in "The Sun"), but in case my gut is right on this: shouldn't the initial word "The" in the lede be bolded? One doesn't say "I'm from United States of America" or "I'm from U.S."; the integral article "The" is always present as part of the name when it appears in a full sentence. 2600:1700:B7B0:950:7C6A:8E8E:B04A:83DC (talk) 15:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not part of the name, and we don't bold words just because they are articles which belong to another word which is written in bold. Also, when a country appears in a list, for example, it is written without its article. Maxeto0910 (talk) 16:37, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Separate disambiguation hatnote

Do we really need the newly added hatnote which separately distinguishes the country from the continent? I mean, I get that it's probably more likely for the average reader to be confused with America and the Americas than it is with any other term which has its disambiguation page linked. Nonetheless, it's still redundant since America (disambiguation) already lists the continent as its first entry. Also, readers who are confused by said state of affairs would probably click on the North America article anyway, where it is explained as well; it's literally the first term linked in the lead. Maxeto0910 (talk) 16:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Important discussion

Given that the right to political satire isn't protected as it's in Italy (Maurizio Crozza: an example of strong political satire), are we sure that the United States is the "strongest protections of free speech of any country"? Certainly it's one of the strongest, but are we sure it's the strongest? JacktheBrown (talk) 16:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Jack, please refrain in your copyedits from editorializing on what the sources say if you're not going to check what they say. I personally don't find this distinction illuminating or this characterization of the US compelling, but just make sure you don't change the meaning of sourced prose in your copyedits. Remsense ‥ 论 16:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Remsense: you're right, I just wanted to start this discussion. JacktheBrown (talk) 16:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@JacktheBrown: Satire is vigorously protected speech in the United States. If it is more protected in Italy, it isn't in some other European countries, where one can be pursued for defamation. That would be difficult in the U.S.—except in the case of copyright infringement or stealing content from others with the aim of satire. The political satire you refer to, vicious parody (used in American political cartoons since the early 19th century), falls under the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The U.S. Supreme Court confirmed it in Hustler Magazine v. Falwell (1988). See https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/satire/. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mason.Jones: thank you, I will read this very carefully: https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/satire/. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Use of the word "its" vs the word "the" for referring to Washington DC

@Maxeto0910 as I stated in my edit, I do not want to start an edit war, so I have taken this to the talk page. The use of the word "the" is more correct, as it implies that Washington DC is a specific location. RedactedHumanoid (talk) 17:41, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Why would using "its" not imply that it's a specific location as well? Maxeto0910 (talk) 17:43, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

The word "its" is generally used to show possession and/or ownership, and while the USA technically does own Washington DC, in this case, we're not trying to imply that the USA has possession of Washington DC. Instead, we're simply trying to imply that it is a specific place. RedactedHumanoid (talk) 17:47, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

So you think using "its" shifts the focus too much to the fact that Washington, D.C. belongs to the U.S. instead of making clear that it's a "specific place"? I think the term "federal capital district" makes that pretty clear already. Maxeto0910 (talk) 17:55, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, if DC didn't belong to the US, would we be mentioning it in the article? No, we probably wouldn't. RedactedHumanoid (talk) 18:21, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

If you want to state that it's just as obvious that Washington, D.C. belongs to the U.S. as it is that it's a specific place, then you're right. However, at this level, it's a purely stylistic question, and "its" reads softer and is consistent with the rest of the lead. Maxeto0910 (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

That is a good point. Also, @Remsense has intervened and has stated in the revision history that "its" should be used instead of "the". Lets put this conversation to rest now. RedactedHumanoid (talk) 18:29, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

No mention of "ethnic cleansing" or "genocide"

I was disappointed but unsurprised to learn that the lead for this page makes no mentions of the ethnic cleansings and genocide(s) of indigenous peoples that are the cornerstone of America's existence as a nation as we know it, but I was actually surprised, thought perhaps I should not have been, that a Ctrl+F for "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" yield no results. While scholars certainly debate the specifics of which events in American history amount to genocide or ethnic cleansing, there is a general consensus that at least some "interactions" between the USA and native peoples constitutes genocide or ethnic cleansing. Not mentioning them here is reprehensible. I will be refactoring the article to change that fact, relying on the reliable sources of course, but am posting my intention here first in case it provea controversial. I am also of the view that the lead should mention these facts, and not doing so is akin to if the Germany page failed to mention the Holocaust. Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:06, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

We've been here before, Brusquedandelion: ideological editors who wish to explain the entire American experience as founded on genocide and nurtured by slavery and exploitation. Moral equivalency: 20th-century monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and worse. Efforts then, and now, to make this article's lede into an ideological whip with a certain political point of view will face stiff opposition. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Brusquedandelion: your all over the place with this Wikipedia:Lead fixation..could you read over WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and Wikipedia:Advocacy. Moxy🍁 16:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy If by "all over the place" you mean literally two country's articles, yes, I am "all over the place". Anyways, a series of comments at a recent RFC at Turkey brought it to my attention that there is a large number of disparities in how different country articles describe major atrocities in their history, whether they mention them in the lead, and the amount of ink they spill on discussing them, both in the body and lead. In general, my Wikipedia editing happens in "campaigns" or "projects" where I will try to edit a number of articles that are closely related in some way, or introduce the same sorts of changes across a broad number of articles; I can see how a certain bad faith interpretation of this could be that I am engaging in "advocacy". I am trying to correct these inconsistencies in the aim of making Wikipedia a better encyclopedia; the only "great wrong" I am trying to right is Wikipedia not being the best encyclopedia it could be. Brusquedandelion (talk) 00:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

@Mason.Jones I am not trying to make any sort of moral equivalences to other nations or individuals, nor did I make any claims about the "entire American experience". I would appreciate if you could read what I actually wrote rather than lumping me in with other people you may have engaged with before. Brusquedandelion (talk) 00:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

What makes you think that denial/minimization/normalization of genocide and ethnic cleansing is somehow less ideological? Brusquedandelion is correct. إيان (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Odd. There was a fellow who kept deleting any mention of the California genocide despite talk page consensus to include it. I see they struck again back in June and nobody noticed... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 01:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for restoring this. Brusquedandelion (talk) 02:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are supposed to provide the same weight to different aspects of a topic that appear in reliable sources. Whether or not coverage in reliable sources is fair is irrelevant. It would be helpful to show the extent of coverage of U.S. treatment of aboriginal people in similar articles. The lead for the Encyclopedia Britannica article for example does not mention this although it mentions the people.[2] Of course it's only one of many articles we could look at. TFD (talk) 02:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

So they removed it back in June and no one noticed? That is crazy. This article has one of the highest page views in entire English Wikipedia. There seems to be 161 page watchers active in the past 30 days. Bogazicili (talk) 12:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica is just one (tertiary) source, and anywaya the consensus in previous discussions was to mention the Trail of Tears and California genocides by name in the body. Brusquedandelion (talk) 03:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Major encyclopedias don't reference a country's colonial, racial, or imperialistic "atrocities" from a distant past and make them a key feature of that country's existence—not in introductory paragraphs. That's also true in Wikipedia, where 19th-century colonies and indigenous peoples (but no atrocities, as well documented and reprehensible as they are) are mentioned in the ledes of United Kingdom, France, Brazil, Belgium, and the Netherlands. The exception is when political violence or racial genocide was systematically utilized by the state in modern times (e.g., Germany and Japan during the 1940s). I'd hope that editors might see the difference, but I know otherwise. In this article's lede, some Wikipedians have sought to "right all wrongs", and in the service of an anti-American agenda. Mason.Jones (talk) 04:20, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Major encyclopedias don't reference a country's colonial, racial, or imperialistic "atrocities" from a distant past and make them a key feature of that country's existence—not in introductory paragraphs.

Fortunately, I am not suggesting we do that. You should again try understanding my actual position before critiquing it. Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Brusquedandelion: No, I have read your original post correctly, and you specifically write that (quote) "the lead for this page makes no mentions of the ethnic cleansings and genocide(s) of indigenous peoples." Nor should the lede do so, for the reasons I stated above. Such mentions belong in the body under "History," and after debate, but not in the introduction as an editor's essential "understanding" of the country. Mason.Jones (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Why did you quote my comments about the lead, but not about the body? Do you understand I am not just critiquing the lead? Can I take your refusal to engage with my comments about the body as a sign of your tacit agreement that the body should say more about the genocides/ethnic cleansings of Native Americans? Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I just said I have no problem mentioning that history in the body of the article. (I'm actually the one who edited the original passages re the Trail of Tears and the California Genocide just now restored by another editor.) I will still oppose any polemical edits that seek to harp on "U.S. atrocities" of a bygone era or, worse, incorporate them into the lede—not unless we intend to do the same for the brutal 19th-century treatment of the indigenous now absent from the ledes of United Kingdom, France, Brazil, Belgium, and the Netherlands. Mason.Jones (talk) 02:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes I know that "Encyclopedia Britannica is just one (tertiary) source," which is why I wrote, "the Encyclopedia Britannica article for example."

Wikipedia:TERTIARY says, "Policy: Reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics." If this aspect of the topic is significant enough to be in the lead, then you should find a tertiary source that mentions it prominently. Since you said that the Encylopedia is just one tertiary source, I assume you have found others. TFD (talk) 17:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I would look for quality non-US, non-Western tertiary sources. WP:Neutral point of view demands that we consider those sources as well. إيان (talk) 20:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

From the Heibonsha World Encyclopedia entry on the United States:

　アメリカ・インディアン，黒人，スペイン系・メキシコ系アメリカ人は，〈移民の国〉アメリカにとっては例外的集団である。アメリカ・インディアンは白人植民者到来以前の先住民である。しかしヨーロッパ諸国の植民勢力進出によって大きな犠牲を強いられた。合衆国時代に入ってからはますます領土を蚕食され，ついには保留地に閉じ込められてしまった。さらに政府の文明化政策により，インディアン諸部族の固有文化は大きな打撃を受けた。黒人は自らの意志に反してアフリカから連れてこられた奴隷を祖先としている。奴隷解放後も，差別制度により二級市民としての生活を余儀なくされてきた。第3にスペイン系・メキシコ系アメリカ人の場合，その祖先はアングロ・サクソン系住民到来以前に合衆国南西部に住んでいた。南西部はスペイン人，ついでメキシコ人が領有した所であった。さらに1910年以降，南西部の経済発展は新たにメキシコから多くの労働者をひきつけ，1910年に始まったメキシコ革命はその移住者の流れに拍車をかけた。安全とよりよい生活を求めて多数の貧しい農民と都市居住者が国境を越えてきたのである。カリブ海のプエルト・リコからの移住者もスペイン系アメリカ人に加えられる。プエルト・リコの貧しい生活から逃れるためにやってきた人たちで，ニューヨーク市にその大半が居住している。これらのスペイン系アメリカ人は近年〈ヒスパニック〉あるいは〈ラティノ〉と呼ばれ，2000年に全米人口の12.6%を占め黒人人口を上回った。

American Indians , blacks, Spanish and Mexican Americans are exceptional groups in the United States, a country of immigrants. American Indians are the indigenous peoples before the arrival of white colonists. However, they suffered great sacrifices due to the advance of European colonial powers. Since the United States era, their territory has been increasingly eroded, and they have finally been confined to reservations. Furthermore, the government's civilization policy has dealt a heavy blow to the unique culture of Indian tribes. Blacks' ancestors are slaves who were brought from Africa against their will. Even after the slaves were emancipated, they have been forced to live as second-class citizens due to a discriminatory system. Thirdly, in the case of Spanish and Mexican Americans, their ancestors lived in the southwestern United States before the arrival of Anglo-Saxon inhabitants. The southwest was owned by the Spanish and then the Mexicans. Furthermore, after 1910, the economic development of the southwest attracted many new workers from Mexico, and the Mexican Revolution that began in 1910 spurred this flow of immigrants. Many poor farmers and city dwellers crossed the border in search of safety and a better life. Immigrants from Puerto Rico in the Caribbean are also included in the Hispanic Americans. They came to New York City to escape the poor life in Puerto Rico, and most of them live in New York City. These Hispanic Americans are now called Hispanics or Latinos, and in 2000 they made up 12.6% of the US population, surpassing the black population. (Google Translate) إيان (talk) 20:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Gaung Tebono, why did you delete the above citation? إيان (talk) 21:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course we can consider these sources in determining due weight, but we cannot use them exclusively to do so.

Your text btw does not show what weight these observations are given in the article. Is that how the article opens or where exactly is it placed and how long is the article? TFD (talk) 02:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Obviously it's not to be used exclusively. Also, this conversation isn't only about coverage in the introduction.

The above text is one of four paragraphs in the section on 住民 'people, residents' on page 5 of 20 of the entry on the US. إيان (talk) 02:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 October 2024

Big cities like Dallas, San Antonio, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Miami, Charlotte, Nashville, Washington DC, Philadelphia, New York City, Boston, Columbus, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Kansas City, Seattle, Las Vegas, San Francisco, Los Angeles & Phoenix. ZiWinger (talk) 12:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 14:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)