Talk:Variyankunnath Kunjahammad Haji

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This article portrayed Variyan Kunnathu Kunjahammed Haji as a freedom fighter and hero.

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Is Variyan Kunnath a criminal

Some recent edits marked him as a criminal, and charges against him murder, Arson, Rioting, Forgery etc without any reliable references. He was fighting against British in India. He run a rebel government confronting British. How he can be labelled as a criminal?--Irshadpp (talk) 10:05, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Mr Haji was termed as criminal because he has been convicted under IPC for the crimes like murder, which he orchestrated (crimes like murder of a policeman, which was always boasted by his followers). Indian freedom fighters have always banked on the principle of non violence and CIVIL disobedience. And in that context it is very dubious whether to call Mr. Haji as a freedom fighter, because his actions doesn't comes under the basic frame work. Editormallu (talk) 02:44, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Do you mean like Sawarkar and Bhagat Singh. They were also treated as Criminals and convicted by IPC. There were different frame works in Indian freedom struggles. Haji was considered as freedom fighter by Historians and Governments. So do not judge by your point of view. You can mention inside the article that British Raj considered Haji as a criminal. Infobox should be similar to Sawarkar and Bhagat Singh, who were not in under basic frame work.--Irshadpp (talk) 10:51, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Savarkar and Bhagath Singh were not convicted for killing innocent people. That alone differentiates Mr. Haji with Bhagath singh. None of the main stream historians have place mr Haji among revolutionary nationalists. If you see the list activities done by Hindustan socialist republic association,with which Bhagath singh was a part of, each and every one of them were directed towards the government machinery, none of such activities had any slight undertone of a pogrom. But Malabar riot differs in that context. None of the organisers nor participants of Malabar riot were given swathanthra sainik sammanam pension, that alone deems that the government were not on board to consider these people as freedom fighters. Editormallu (talk) 20:19, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Do not impose any point of view, your or mine. You may edit anything by citing sources. If you can edit with WP:RS, it will be perfect. Otherwise might be reverted or edited by other users. Edit warring (like what happening in this article) not a good idea, specially here in wikipedia.--Irshadpp (talk) 21:58, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

He never did all that for Indian Independence or it had nothing to do with India's freedom struggle.. Else why everything were done in the name of Islam, from initiating the rebellion (cause being fake news about attack against a mosque), propagating his ideas via religious means (mappila pattu, badr songs etc) to naming his kingdom as a caliphate? If he was secular he wouldn't have followed the lines of a religious leader right? He was just another religious fanatic Therealcommunistofcuba (talk) 21:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Irshadpp has made some good points. We don't use Wikipedia for attack and for Indian freedom struggle related people, we use the terms like activists. Be civil please. Thanks. - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (^talk) 04:44, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes he was more than a criminal, was a terrorists and responsible for Hindu genocide in Kerala. Nandanw (talk) 11:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

@Irshadpp: @AaqibAnjum: I agree with the point raised by @Editormallu: none of the other armed struggle groups such as Bhagat Singh's Ghadhar party or INA of Subhash Chandra Bose are involved in mass killing of Indians. If this was a formally declared war Varian Kunnan Hadji would still be considered a war criminal. For the sake of argument, even if we agree that the executed people were collaborators, mass execution of civilians for collaborating with the enemy still constitutes a war crime. Hope this helps --Sahir 15:03, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Variyankunnan was a freedom  fighter and a revolutionary. In a cablegram he send to "The Friends of Freedom for India" (A US based organization) he specifically says his war was with England and He fights for the Freedom of India. He also says that the reported forced conversions are done by British spies masquerading as Moplas to discredit him and they have been put to death.

This was reported by 2 US newspapers on 7th December 1921. Detroit Free Press and The Baltimore Sun.

"A few cases of conversion of our Hindu brethren have been reported to me. But after proper investigation we discovered the real plot. The vandals that were guilty of this crime were members of the British Reserve Police and British Intelligence Department and they joined our forces as patriots to do such filthy work only to discredit our soldiers. There are Christians, Hindus and Moplas amongst these British agents and spies. They have decidedly been put to death. We are at war with England. We are fighting for the independence of India. And we are doing exactly what the Americans did to free America from British Domination. So anyone giving aid and comfort to the enemy will be severely dealt with, irrespective of social position or religious affiliation. Let the great people of the great land of Washington postpone judgement untill they have a chance to know the full truth about the present war in Malabar"

Faukka (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

It appears that even Sangh Parivar do not criticise Variyamkunnath specifically for both atrocities against the Hindus and alleged killing of Hindus and converting them to Islam during the rebellion. Neutralhappy (talk) 08:24, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Questionable sources

I am unable to verify the authenticity of two of the sources used in this article. The article is references these sources quite a bit for its content. In fact, I believe one of them is completely made up, because I can’t find anything about the book except some mentions in an obscure website and a badly written student dissertation. Below, I give the reason for coming to this assumption, please note that I have used Wikipedia’s guideline on reliability of sources (WP:RS)

Questionable source 1: Kodoor, AK (1994). Anglo Mappila Yudham 1921. Kozhikkode: Olive.

• Book - Google search reveal almost nothing about this. I found this site, which claims to be a library which have a listing of this book. The book there is titled, 1921 Anglo-Mappila Yudham, written by someone called AK Kodur. This is a slight deviation from the naming in the source. Publisher is given as 1921 Viplavanusmarana Samithi, Mahboob Books, 1999. There is no other listing of this book. The book is supposedly checked out.
• Author - A rudimentary search of name Kodoor, AK reveals nothing.
• Publisher - Mahboob Books - another unknown publisher.

Mention of the book appears only in low quality and low reputable fringe publications. There is no information on the author and his authority, no information about the publisher. It’s clear that the source, if it even exists, does not meet the required standard of Wikipedia

Questionable source 2: Adul Kareem, KK Muhammed (1992). Variyankunnathu kunjahammed Haji

• Book - There is only a wikipedia Malayalam article that cites it’s existence. No other info available about the book itself.
• Author - The author seems to be have some hits on google scholar. Author also has a Malayalam wikipedia page. So, I don’t know about that. Pretty sure that he is real.
• Publisher - No info.

Here too, the source fails to meet the standard of wikipedia. Unlike the first book, I am not skeptical about the existence of the book or the author here.

I also believe both books are in Malayalam. I don’t know who did the supposed translation in the article.

I recommend that the first source be immediately removed from the article, even if it exists, its of low quality. Second one can also be removed after some deliberation. -BhaskaraPattelar (talk) 17:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes definitely... There's a hidden propoganda going on it seems to convert him into an eminent personality Therealcommunistofcuba (talk) 20:53, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@BhaskaraPattelar: You've done a good work by adding the quotation template and dear Therealcommunistofcuba, we need to maintain WP:NPOV while we talk here. There is definitely not any propaganda. If someone is related to Indian freedom struggle, Indians would necessarily mean him, or exaggerate; but we need to maintain neutrality and, as BhaskaraPattelar said WP:RS. - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (^talk) 04:41, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

@AaqibAnjum: Thank you. I added quotation template to drive discussion onto the reliability of the sources. Even if quotation are provided, I don't think that proves the authenticity of the sources as I have mentioned my writeup above. They don't meet the criteria of WP:RS. That said, the entire article is written from an extremely POV perspective. There is no criticism of the subject such a historical and contentious figure such as him would have. The lede itself is incredible biased. Almost all sources used are of Low quality(There are some exception like K N Pannikar and Encyclopaedia of Islam), some of them are published by obscure and obviously biased publishers such as 'Islamic Publishing house'. Some of them written by people with obvious political bias, like KT Jaleel.

In short, This is a very low quality article, created using obscure, non-academic texts of dubious reliabilty pushing a hard POV. This is so in your face that I kinda agree with @Therealcommunistofcuba:. Cheers - 08:44, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Everything that is written based on the first source should be removed, it is clearly non-RS, the author and the book is non-notable. This is a controversial subject, such topics should be cited with strong sources, everything else should be removed. It is better to have an incomplete article than an incorrect one. 157.46.222.34 (talk) 10:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Book titled Anglo Mappila Yudham 1921 by AK Kodoor is listed here : 1) https://www.amazon.in/ANGLO-MAPPILA-YUDHAM-KODOOR-%E0%B4%AE%E0%B4%BE%E0%B4%AA%E0%B5%8D%E0%B4%AA%E0%B4%BF%E0%B4%B3/dp/8194163757#featureBulletsAndDetailBullets_feature_div Publisher : Grace Books. 2) https://www.iphbooks.com/productdetails.php?id=814 3)http://catalogue.mappilaheritagelibrary.com:8001/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumber=12382&shelfbrowse_itemnumber=11698 Published by Viplanusmarana Samithi 4) https://find.uoc.ac.in/Record/ch.12382 5)https://keralabookstore.com/book/1921-angl-mappila-yudham/18419/ 6) https://www.gracebooks.in/product/anglo-mappila-yudham/ 7) https://olivepublications.in/product/anglo-mappila-yudham-1921/

It's listed in several websites and quoted in several websites.

Neutralhappy (talk) 10:20, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2020

Include the Hindu Genocide that took place during Malabar riot, which lead to the death of about 10000 Hindus and numerous religious conversions, atrocities and rapes SreejithSajeed (talk) 02:55, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Please provide a reliable reference. Thanks. - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (^talk) 03:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Vandelism

An effort has been noticed and the article edited on 24 Jun 2020 to include unverified and lies and a prejudiced view, after a movie has been announced on this topic in India. Need to revert to the previous version. Jayanvrb (talk) 06:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

It's spelt vandalism, not vandelism. 2A0A:EF40:35B:101:BCB8:FEB:7D2D:A9F9 (talk) 22:15, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Was Variyan Kunnathu Kunjahammed Haji an indian independence activist?

I am curious about this, the lede introduces him as an Indian independence activist. But is it real true? It seems to me that he was never part of the mainstream congress-led Khilafat movement (the source linked doesn't say so), even Bhagat Singh and Pazhassi Raja are not called Indian Independence activists. Bhagat Singh is called a "revolutionary". Pazhassi Raja is not even called that. I think the term here must removed and substituted with the word revolutionary or activist. I would like to hear more thoughts on this. Thank you -BhaskaraPattelar (talk) 18:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

The article on Khilafat Movement mentions him as one of the commanders. So I think "commander" of Mappilla Rebellion seems to be a fair, neutral term(The word having neither positive nor negative connotation). I have changed Indian independence to Khilafat before seeing your message. What about changing it to "Commander of Mappila Rebellion". "Controversial Revolutionary leader", "one the prominent leader of Mappila Rebellion" are the other things I could think of. Thank you - [[User:Samudra95|Samudra95](talk) 17:40, 03 July 2020 (UTC)

Activist is fine, I guess - BhaskaraPattelar (talk) 18:01, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Variyankunnan was a freedom  fighter and a revolutionary. In a cablegram he send to "The Friends of Freedom for India" (A US based organization) he specifically says that his war was with England and He fights for the Freedom of India. He also says that the reported forced conversions are done by British spies masquerading as Moplas to discredit him and they have been put to death.

This was reported by 2 US newspapers on 7th December 1921. Detroit Free Press and The Baltimore Sun.

"A few cases of conversion of our Hindu brethren have been reported to me. But after proper investigation we discovered the real plot. The vandals that were guilty of this crime were members of the British Reserve Police and British Intelligence Department and they joined our forces as patriots to do such filthy work only to discredit our soldiers. There are Christians, Hindus and Moplas amongst these British agents and spies. They have decidedly been put to death.

We are at war with England. We are fighting for the independence of India. And we are doing exactly what the Americans did to free America from British Domination. So anyone giving aid and comfort to the enemy will be severely dealt with, irrespective of social position or religious affiliation.

Let the great people of the great land of Washington postpone judgement until they have a chance to know the full truth about the present war in Malabar"

Faukka (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

As it stands, as per govt of India the malabar rebellion was not a freedom movement, and therefore, neither the participants. Self-proclamation by someone that he is a freedom fighter is not proof enough. ( the authenticity of such letters to US news papers is another matter)

 Not done

P R Akashan (talk) 21:34, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Variyamkunnath Kunjahammed Haji was a terrorist

Wiki information in the page is incorrect. Variyamkunnath Kunjahammed Haji was a terrorist like Talibanis. He and his followers planned and executed Hindu Genocide in northern Kerala and massacred at least 10000 Hindus and raped Hindu women. Nandanw (talk) 11:11, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

False claim without any reference. Even the Arya Samaj says 600 hindus. How did you came up with 10000? Faukka (talk) 22:06, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

No citations, no references.

There's some concerted effort on this page to insert material without any source or citation. The Judgement part and VKHaji's statements do not have any historical reference. Such statements without historical background cannot find a place on Wiki. Jstore Master (talk) 06:11, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Cannot say freedom fighter

Recently, the ICHR recommended the Indian government to remove the name of VKHaji and 386 Moplah rioters from the list of India's freedom struggle martyrs. So the mention of him as a freedom fighter becomes highly questionable. Indian government had in 1973 states they cannot recognise Malabar rebellion as freedom struggle. So it becomes even more problematic to call VKHaji a freedom fighter. Jstore Master (talk) 06:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Variyankunnan was a freedom  figher and a revolutionary. In a cablegram he send to "The Friends of Freedom for India" (A US based organization) he specifically says his war was with England and He fights for the Freedom of India. He also says that the reported forced conversions are done by British spies masquerading as Moplas to discredit him and they have been put to death.

This was reported by 2 US newspapers on 7th December 1921. Detroit Free Press and The Baltimore Sun.

"A few cases of conversion of our Hindu brethren have been reported to me. But after proper investigation we discovered the real plot. The vandals that were guilty of this crime were members of the British Reserve Police and British Intelligence Department and they joined our forces as patriots to do such filthy work only to discredit our soldiers. There are Christians, Hindus and Moplas amongst these British agents and spies. They have decidedly been put to death.

We are at war with England. We are fighting for the independence of India. And we are doing exactly what the Americans did to free America from British Domination. So anyone giving aid and comfort to the enemy will be severely dealt with, irrespective of social position or religious affiliation.

Let the great people of the great land of Washington postpone judgement untill they have a chance to know the full truth about the present war in Malabar"

Faukka (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

As it stands, as per govt of India the malabar rebellion was not a freedom movement, and therefore, neither the participants. Self-proclamation by someone that he is a freedom fighter is not proof enough. ( the authenticity of such letters to US news papers is another matter)

As of now the page lists the subject as freedom fighter, by correcting the previous edit without any reference refuting ICHR/govt of India

 Not done

P R Akashan (talk) 21:34, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

His name is listed in the fifth volume of ‘The Dictionary of Martyrs, India’s Freedom Struggle from 1857 to 1947’

However, under the Modi government, the Indian Council of Historical Research considered removing the names of Haji and 386 others from the Dictionary of Martyrs of India's Freedom Struggle for being associated with the Khilafat Movement. But it has not been removed since. Neutralhappy (talk) 15:18, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2021

For adding image Ashiqueash6 (talk) 12:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Please permit Ashiqueash6 (talk) 12:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Cannolis (talk) 18:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

The real intention behind Malabar rebellion.

The Malabar rebellion of 1921 (also known by the names Moplah massacre, Moplah riots, Mappila riots) started as a resistance against the British colonial rule in Malabar region of Kerala. Unfortunately the popular uprising was ended against the destruction of hindu temples, rapping women's and children's, looting the wealth of hindus and mass massacre of hindus. Hrishikesh M. S keshu (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Variyankunnan was a freedom  figher and a revolutionary. In a cablegram he send to "The Friends of Freedom for India"(A US based organization) he specifically says his war was with England and He fights for the Freedom of India. He denies any involvement in forced conversions and accuse the British for orchestrating it for discrediting him. He also punished the british spies who did that.

This was reported by 2 US newspapers on 7th December 1921. Detroit Free Press and The Baltimore Sun.

"A few cases of conversion of our Hindu brethren have been reported to me. But after proper investigation we discovered the real plot. The vandals that were guilty of this crime were members of the British Reserve Police and British Intelligence Department and they joined our forces as patriots to do such filthy work only to discredit our soldiers. There are Christians, Hindus and Moplas amongst these British agents and spies. They have decidedly been put to death.

We are at war with England. We are fighting for the independence of India. And we are doing exactly what the Americans did to free America from British Domination. So anyone giving aid and comfort to the enemy will be severely dealt with, irrespective of social position or religious affiliation.

Let the great people of the great land of Washington postpone judgement untill they have a chance to know the full truth about the present war in Malabar"

Detroit Free Press (USA) 07-December-1921

Variyankunnan's Message to American Organization

Variyankunnan was a freedom  figher and a revolutionary. In a cablegram he send to "The Friends of Freedom for India" (A US based organization) he specifically says his war was with England and He fights for the Freedom of India. He also says that the reported forced conversions are done by British spies masquerading as Moplas to discredit him and they have been put to death.

This was reported by 2 US newspapers on 7th December 1921. Detroit Free Press and The Baltimore Sun.

''"A few cases of conversion of our Hindu brethren have been reported to me. But after proper investigation we discovered the real plot. The vandals that were guilty of this crime were members of the British Reserve Police and British Intelligence Department and they joined our forces as patriots to do such filthy work only to discredit our soldiers. There are Christians, Hindus and Moplas amongst these British agents and spies. They have decidedly been put to death. We are at war with England. We are fighting for the independence of India. And we are doing exactly what the Americans did to free America from British Domination. So anyone giving aid and comfort to the enemy will be severely dealt with, irrespective of social position or religious affiliation. Let the great people of the great land of Washington postpone judgement untill they have a chance to know the full truth about the present war in Malabar'"

Faukka (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

The quoted reference is just one (and made by the subject itself, which makes the neutrality questionable) against many other independent British and Indian references indicating that forced conversions and other atrocities were done by the rioters themselves [[1]]. In addition, the wiki article itself lists the subject as a member of Khilafat movement[[2]] , and not the Indian independence movement. Hence the statement quoted in the letter to US newspapers "We are fighting for the independence of India" is contradicting with the stated aim of the Khilafat movement[[3]]

 Not done

P R Akashan (talk) 21:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

The stated aim of the Khilafat Movement was to get the Ottoman Califate maintained. Neutralhappy (talk) 15:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2021

83.110.99.67 (talk) 06:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Dears , we were find the Great, Variyam kunnan Original pictures , so kindly include that also

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. If you have a picture in mind that is in line with our Wikipedia:Image use policy, include it here and reopen the request Cannolis (talk) 06:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2021 (2)

Request to Add a section titled "Variyankunnan's Message to American Organization".

Variyankunnan send a cablegram to A US based organization known as "The Friends of Freedom for India". He specifically says that his war was with England and He fights for the Freedom of India. He also says that the reported forced conversions are done by British spies masquerading as Moplas to discredit him and they have been put to death. This was reported by 2 US newspapers on 7th December 1921. Detroit Free Press and The Baltimore Sun.

"A few cases of conversion of our Hindu brethren have been reported to me. But after proper investigation we discovered the real plot. The vandals that were guilty of this crime were members of the British Reserve Police and British Intelligence Department and they joined our forces as patriots to do such filthy work only to discredit our soldiers. There are Christians, Hindus and Moplas amongst these British agents and spies. They have decidedly been put to death. We are at war with England. We are fighting for the independence of India. And we are doing exactly what the Americans did to free America from British Domination. So anyone giving aid and comfort to the enemy will be severely dealt with, irrespective of social position or religious affiliation. Let the great people of the great land of Washington postpone judgement until they have a chance to know the full truth about the present war in Malabar"

Faukka (talk) 23:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC) Faukka (talk) 06:34, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —twotwofourtysix^{(My talk page and contributions)} 09:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Please add a separate section titled "Variyankunnan's Message to American Organization". The references are given at the bottom. All the references are from reputed Newspaper archives in US.

Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2021 (3)

Remove "(translated as Islamic religious state)" as this is not in the reference mentioned. Moplah is an ethnicity, not a religion Faukka (talk) 09:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Interesting Geek (talk) 23:27, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Variam kunnan is jihadi

Variam kunnan is jihadi and media one and al Jazeera are trying to paint him into freedom fighter. 115.99.217.53 (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

What is the reference to the authenticity of the Hindu newspaper clipping

The listed news paper clipping (dated as October 18, 1921) from Hindu has no reference/mention about from where it was obtained

 Not done

P R Akashan (talk) 21:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/reports-of-hindu-muslim-strife-in-malabar-baseless/article31918716.ece Here it is. Neutralhappy (talk) 08:14, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

copy editing?

May I suggest trimming the lead (perhaps to Variyankunnathu Kunjahammed Haji (1883 – 20 January 1922) was an Indian independence activist in the Khilafat Movement. Haji, along with his mentor, Ali Musliyar, seized large areas of the Malabar district in the Madras Presidency (now in the Indian state of Kerala) and established a parallel government that lasted for six months. ). I'd do it myself but I don't want to mess up the referencing.--RegentsPark (comment) 17:25, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Capitalisation of titles in citation

I have decided to capitalise the first and last words, all nouns, all verbs (even short ones, like is), all adjectives, and all proper nouns of titles of books, movies, and other works in CITATION and lowercase articles, conjunctions, and prepositions of them in CITATATION as per section numbered 6 in the article : https://www.grammarly.com/blog/capitalization-rules/

(If all of the title is in capital letters) What is your opinion? Neutralhappy (talk) 04:46, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Not a freedom fighter

Government of India declined that he is not a freedom fighter. Then which countries' freedom fighter was he ? Ningalonnichpovuka (talk) 15:18, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

What are the definitions of "Khilafatist", "Khilafat movement member" and "Khilafat volunteer"?

We need to know the definitions of "Khilafatist", "Khilafat movement member" and "Khilafat volunteer". How to distinguish them? Neutralhappy (talk) 13:53, 21 October 2022 (UTC)