Talk:Vasojevići

Xhubleta

Gjergji (2004) reports: "This also explains the severity of the measures with which the official circles of Cetinje tried to eliminate the folk costume of several Albanian clans in Montenegro, as one of the means for their denationalisation. Thus, in 1860, the government in Cetinje first issued the order that ornaments and embroideries must be removed from different parts of the costume of the women of the Vasaj tribe (Vasojevic) such as on the xhubleta, aprons, jackets etc. and Montenegrin garments worn instead; then the governor sent men to the Vasaj who "took the multicolour coats from the women's clothes chests so the people would wear the Montenegrin costume. He did the same thing in the neighbouring zones of the Moraça, Ravcaj, Bratonozhiq and other, because there too, a similar women's costume was worn" (121, p.823). Despite the drastic measure, the women of the Vasaj clan retained their folk costume until the beginning of XX century". The džupeleta is not a dress "similar" to xhubleta, it is the Serbianized spelling of the name of the Albanian dress in Serbian language sources. – Βατο (talk) 14:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Βατο, false move on my side so my revert message didn't make it. What I wanted to say is that among the Vasojevići, who don't speak Albanian but Serbian (or Serbo-Croatian or whatever Shtokavian dialect you want), the folk costume is known as džupeleta and oblaja. That it is similar to that of the neihbouring Albanian and other Montenegrin tribes is indicated in the provided source (Menković, 2007), but that does not make this dress unique to Albanians. The Vasojevići women garment has been studied by ethnographers for decades and if you do a little research on Google Books, you will find several other references on the matter. Besides, the etymology that you removed is also mentioned in the article from Menković, and is a known fact. For your information, the same Arabic root gave words in other lanuages, such as the French jupe ("skirt") Krisitor (talk) 14:55, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I replied below. Krisitor (talk) 15:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The xhubleta is an Albanian traditional dress, it is not a Montenegrin dress, Gjergji 2004 is clear enough about that. You can add the Serbian-Montenegrin spelling and the variant name, but you can't remove the description provided by Gjergji. The etymology of the Albanian term xhubleta is irrelevant for this article, regardless of the fact that Menković mentions it in their article. – Βατο (talk) 15:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't remove anything, you did. Besides, you added a POV analysis. Gjergji spelled the name of the tribe "Vasaj", a name that they never used during their entire history. So of course, she also uses the term "xhubleta" instead of the Slavic form used by the tribe. Krisitor (talk) 15:17, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

You even falsified Gjergji 2004 with this edit, because Gjergji does not state that "a similar costume to the Albanian xhubleta" was replaced by Montenegrin costumes, but that the traditional Albanian xhubleta worn by Vasojevići women was replaced by Montenegrin costumes. The quote is above, everyone can read it. – Βατο (talk) 15:22, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Please stop throwing WP:ASPERSIONS at my supposed falsifications and stop throwing useless warnings on my talk page, or I'll have to report you. I haven't falsified anything, in fact I've done a lot over the last year to improve this article, expanding it, especially its History section. What have you done here, apart from promoting a single POV? Please show me the improvements you've made to this article, so I know how you've contributed.

By the way, since you seem to believe in your accusations, I relied on Menković (2007), who accurately studied the female costume of the Vasojevići and compared it with that of neighboring tribes. Krisitor (talk) 15:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The 3rr warning is not useless, because if you make another revert of other editors'contributions you will be reported. Mine is not an "aspersion", you completely changed the meaning of the information provided by Gjergji 2004. – Βατο (talk) 15:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The 3rr warning is not useless, because if you make another revert of other editors'contributions you will be reported As if I didn't know.

Menković is more accurate and reliable than Gjergji on this matter: she studied the costume and compared it to others, including that of Malisor tribes. Whereas Gjergji's statement leads the uninformed reader to believe that the Vasojevići were an Albanian tribe in 1860 ("Vasaj" as she calls it) forcibly assimilated by the Montenegrin government of the time. Except that the Vasojevići never used the term "xhubleta", nor did they call themselves "Vasaj". I'll add another reference regarding the dress. Krisitor (talk) 15:51, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The Vasojevići certainly used the Albanian term /dʒubleta/ for this women's garment, regardless of the spelling. The /dʒubleta/, regardless of the spelling, is an Albanian traditional dress worn by Gheg Albanian women, it is not a traditional Montenegrin dress. Gjergji reports that attempts were made in the 19th century to replace Albanian traditional clothing with Montenegrin clothing, and that the Vasojevići women managed to preserve their dress until the 20th century. – Βατο (talk) 16:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

The Vasojevići certainly used the Albanian term /dʒubleta/ for this women's garment, regardless of the spelling. Absolutely not, they never used this Albanian term, and this is documented by ethnographers of the time (late 19th - early 20th century), notably Vlahović. This was the subject of several subsequent ethnographic studies during the period of the former Yugoslavia. Before the 20th century, the Vasojevići mainly used the Slavic term oblaja, while džupeleta, which has the same Arabic root as xhubleta, was used as a synonym, but mainly in Lijeva Rijeka. Moreover, the dress itself was similar, but not identical, to that of Albanian women from neighbouring tribes. Thus, Gjergji is completely wrong when she uses the Albanian term xhubleta to refer to the folk costume of Vasojevići women, but this is hardly surprising for an academic who graduated in the days of Hoxhaist Albania, a state very hostile to the Slavs who were always depicted as invaders who sometimes assimilated the autochtonous Albanians, supposedly including the "Vasaj". So, despite her truly incredible knowledge of Albanian ethnology, Gjergji could not espace a somewhat biased behaviour toward neighbouring Montenegro, which is reflected in this excerpt from her 2004 book. While she was right that the Montenegrin government from the second half of the 19th century tried to replace various aspects of the Vasojevići's folk costumes, her conclusion that the aim was to suppress the tribe's "Albanianism" is not correct, as the Vasojevići didn't identify with Albanians at all, even though they shared many links with certain tribes of Malesia. The Vasojevići were then known (and still are today) for their strong Serbianism: since the Serbian uprisings of the early 19th century, they have always looked towards Serbia, not Montenegro. This was the main reason why the Cetinje government of the time sought to assimilate the Vasojevići, but it didn't work then, and still doesn't today. Anyway, as I said earlier, I will later add a reference explaining the similarities but also the differences between the oblaja/džupeleta and the xhubleta. Krisitor (talk) 08:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 October 2024

Tribe Vasojevići is Serbian origin and not albanian who manipulated informations for worldwide spreading superiority. I am Simić from tribe Vasojevići, and trought all lineage we dont have albanian words in language, customs or traditional wardrobe. Please change word "albanian" in serbian. Ognjen Simic (talk) 10:22, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2024 (UTC)