Talk:Venkateswara/Archive 1

Archive 1

Merger

The content below is copied from Talk:Lord Venkateswara. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 04:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I doubt the accuracy of the number of visitors and most-visited status of this temple. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 21:34, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

according to the TTD, Balaji receives over 50K per day. On festival days of course the number would be much higher.

I merged this w Venkateshwara. Please discuss @ Talk:Venkateshwara, and find a compromise so that the dispute can be removed. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 04:19, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Dispute

I am removing the accuracy dispute header. Please help make the needed changes if you insit on replacing it. ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 20:18, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I can help cleanup this article --Vyzasatya 23:58, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Reassess as Start

Needs a CLEANUP. Issues:

• WP:UNDUE glorification of the Diety. Not encyclopedic, more like devotee literature
• No References. WP:OR like "Adi Sankaracharya came to Tirumala and placed Sri chakra at the lotus feet of Lord Venkateshwara and sung the famous song "Bhaja Govindam". So Lord Venkateshwara is the supreme God of this Kali yuga".
• Infobox needed
• Lead not as WP:LEAD
• WP:MOS violations like use of "God" (not 'god'); bolding of BALAJI, GOD etc.

Thus not worthy of the "commonly the highest article grade that is assigned outside a more formal review process".--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:36, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Legend of Tirumala can be provided in legends. The legend be written in summary style. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

By any chance, are you coming from an ISKON/Gaudiya stance in regard to this issue? Venkatesha is one of the most revered forms of God in India. Scripturally, it says that Venkateswara is the present incarnation of Vishnu or Narayana. Scripturally, Sadhu-wise and tradition, before the schisms from the Sri Sampradayam of 12th through 16th centuries,all say that Narayana is God or Brahman. If you would like, I can give you websites and email addresses of Actual vedically trainned, school trainned Sri Sampradayam pandits and others who can prove this point. --zeuspitar Govinda Ramanuja dasa(talk) 11:53, 04 March 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality issues

The article at severe times says Venkateswara is "supreme god". This against the WP:NEUTRAL policy.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 06:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Redtigerxyz, you wrote some time back the following on the discussion page of Venkateswara:

"The article at severe times says Venkateswara is "supreme god". This against the WP:NEUTRAL policy" According to the original principles of the Sri Sampradayam, to various supported puranic text and Sadhus; Venkateswara is the form of Vishnu for this age of kali as mention in many Sastras. Since He is Vishnu or Narayana...He is the "Supreme God", who is also mention in the original Vedas, main Upanishads, sattvic Puranas, the laws of Manu,by the original Vaishnava saints-the Alwars,by Ramanujacharya as the First and "Supreme God". That is Sastra, Sadhu and Dharma (Scriptures, holy men and tradition). That is what this article-writer is trying to say. In the philosophical context of the Religion; it is not against the WP:NEUTRALpolicy. I also see that you have helped with ISKON articles. And, I know that alot of ISKON people do not know about Venkatesha, because of the belief of Sri Krishna and Caitanya Maha-Prabhu. The awareness, knowledge and scripturally back premise that Venkateswara is God to be Worship by all in the kali yuga is unrefuted by the alwars, Yamunacharya, Ramanujacharya, Vedanta desika, and but Scripture, which is the most important. If you like, I can send you some websites and the names and email address of Sri Sampradayam Scholars that can prove what I said to be truth and absolute FACT.Zeuspitar Govinda Ramanuja dasa(talk) 19:41, 03 March 2008 (UTC)

The article sounds like devotee literature repeating Venkateswara is "supreme god". In Hinduism, other gods like Shiva, Shakti, Ganesha, Surya are considered supreme gods in their resp. cults. (Shaivism, Shaktism, Ganapatya, Saura). In Vaishnavas, Vishnu is supreme, and not just the form of Venkateswara. In Shiva, it is written as " Within Shaivism he is viewed as the supreme deity, where as in other branches of Hinduism such as the Smarta tradition he is worshipped as one of five manifestations of the divine.", not just he is supreme God thus being NEUTRAL. About ISKCON, Somebody said "If we can,...can we work together with ONLY Rudra and redtigerxyz to do this...go through all the articles and make them non-bias....Govinda Ramanuja dasaUSA (talk) 09:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)" on Talk:Bhagavad Gita. I have no connection to ISKCON and i do not know about their philosphy.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 11:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Redtigerxyz, Hey... I hope that I didnt come off too hash or too fanatical,if I did, I am very, very sorry. All night I was thinking about this, and...I need to stop it. I hope every thing is o.k. with you .Zeuspitar Govinda Ramanuja dasa(talk) 10:00, 04 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the "Supreme God" reference should probably be changed to avoid confusion, but perhaps (in the interest of WP:NPOV) a note should be added somewhere for the sects of Vaishnavism that do believe Venkateshwara is the Supreme God, preferably with a sourced link. While He is a form of Vishnu, nearly all Vaishnava sects believe that Vishnu is the source of all of His forms, and so to avoid confusion the note should be made. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 23:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The Covered Eyes

In the lonely planet guide it says that Lord Venkateshwar's eyes are covered because they would scorch the universe otherwise. Any substantiation for this claim in scripture or folklore? It would make a nice addition to the article and draw some of the focus off of the temple. AaronCarson (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of that one before - in scripture or folklore. AFAIK (and through research) there is no such scriptural reference, and although there might be one in folklore (haven't heard of it and can't find one yet) I will say that it's not the first time I've seen incorrect claims or 'facts' made in Lonely Planet travel guides. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 15:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Recent Changes Made by Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA

While I like some of the changes made to the article, I do not think that I agree with all of them. (See here for a comparison of the article from before Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA made changes to what is there currently.) Parts of it still don't comply with WP:MOS, and more importantly, large portions of the article have been removed. I think we should keep some of the changes, but restore parts of the original article. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 15:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Study the comparison, almost no info is removed, its just re-organized. Kudos Zeuspitar.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey, guys, I am very thankful that we can help each other, comprimise with one another to improve articles. It actually quite nice. Please Shruti and everyone, let know what is wrong and I'll change them. Shruti, please help me to change what you think I did wrong. Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 17:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The changes are pretty good for the most part - not much info was removed. Actually now that I look back at it I think they are fine - what needs to be focused on now is expansion and citing sources. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 00:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

UNDUE

REmoved: "Beliefs: To the majority of Vaishnavas; Vishnu or Narayana is considered and worshipped as the one supreme God or Brahman. Even though Vishnu incarnates in various forms or avataras at different times and purposes, He is still considered one and indivisible. His better known past avataras or incarnations have been Narasimha, Parashurama, Rama, and Krishna. According to Sastra or the Vedic scriptures; for this specific age called the Kali yuga, He has come in the form of Venkateshwara. To Vaishnavas, since He is Vishnu-incarnated, Venkateshwara is considered the supreme one God. " WP:UNDUE to beliefs about Vishnu, nothing really about Venkateswara form. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Now thinking about it, I agree with you. Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 15:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

The improvements on the page

Dear everyone, Hey, I really think that the changes that everyone has made to the Venkatesh. page are wonderful. It looks alot better than before. It's more stream lined, cleaner, and more user-friendly. I am very glad to have worked with you all in making this much better page than it was before. And, I am very thankful to have done this seva/kainkarya/devotional service to Vishnu and the public.Love and Namaskar. Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 15:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

Instead of the parenthesized breakup of the word at the top, I have rewritten it in an "Etymology" section in sentence form. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 02:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The meaning of the word Venkata being `destroyer of sins' is incorrect. Student's Sanskrit English Dictionary by Vaman Shivram Apte (Motilal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt. Ltd.) provides the meaning of Venkata (वेंकट:) to be the name of a mountain. There is no dictionary that translates ven (वें) to mean sin and kata (कट) to mean destroyer. If there is such a translation, please provide, else the existing translation will be deleted soon. Rishiyur1 (talk) 20:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Needs many more academic/scholarly sources

Please use more academic sources. Compare this article to the article here which is wholly better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vithoba . Thigle (talk) 22:09, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

File:Sri Srinivas.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Discussion at Talk:Tirumala Venkateswara Temple

You are invited to join the discussion at [[Talk:Tirumala Venkateswara Temple]]. Pavan 04:52, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Please participate in the RFC discussion of whether Thondaiman has built the Tirumala Temple. Pavan 04:52, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Venketashwara Etymology

WHy is there a non reliable source mentioned. Also the article itselelf states " I believe ......" , which means the referred article is a original research. unsourced articles in this page. This page needs improvement and semi protection !Eshwar.om (talk) 11:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Content of the article

The title Venkateshwara implies that this article will deal with Venkateshwara (Hindu GOD). But most of the content seems to be about the famous Tirupati temple dedicated to Venkateshwara. Depending on what we want to make this article we might needs to move some content from here to the temple article --Vyzasatya 19:27, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

All these related articles need heavy reshuffling of content and reorgnization

• Tirumala
• Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams
• Tirupati

--Vyzasatya 09:43, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

The History section seems like a summary of the Legend section ("It is said that Lord Kubera ..." etc.). No dates and no historical grounding. What's appropriate here are historical facts whose date and legitimacy are reasonably well established. First references to Ventakateswara or Srinivasa. Mentions in literature that can be dated. With citations. Right now this section is a joke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.19.23 (talk) 16:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Quality of the write-up

This article does not measure up to the quality of Wikipedia articles. The style and grammar should be revised. Please change the categorization of this article to include Jainism as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.116.156.130 (talk) 06:01, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Removing content from Origin of shrine section

The content which is cited says about the boundaries of Tamil land. But it never says anything about the existence of temple at all. aggi007(talk) 12:32, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Venkateswara

"Kruthethu Naarasimho Bhoo Trethayaam Raghunandana

Dwapare Vasudevascha Kalau Venkatanayaka! ||"

Translation: In Kritha Yuga, Lord Narasimha, In Treta Yuga Lord Sri Rama, In Dwapara Yuga Lord Sri Krishna, and in Kaliyuga Lord Sri Venkateswara are called as Prathyaksha Dhaivams (Deities).

VARAHA PURANA: Sri Venkatesa mahatyam (History & glories of Lord Venkatesha & Tirumala) is mentioned in Varaha Purana. According to the Varaha Purana, Adi Varaha manifested Himself on the western bank of the Swami Pushkarini, while Sriman-Narayan as Venkateswara came to reside on the southern bank of the Swami Pushkarini.

"Venkatesha Ashtottara namavali" which is 108 names of Lord Venkatesha is also mentioned in Varaha Purana (this is different from 108 names mentioned in Brahmanda Purana), which is recited in Tirumala temple during morning worship after second bell.

"SrI: VenkatEsAth ParO dEvo nAsthyanya: SaraNam bhuvi VenkatEsa SamO dEvo nAsthi nAsthi maheetaLE" --VarAha PurANam, First Canto, chapter 61

Meaning:There is no other God like Venkatesa(sriman Narayan) to seek refuge for protection and there is no other God equal to Lord Venkateshwara(sriman Narayan).

"Venkatadri Samam Sthanam Brahmande Nasthi Kinchana

Venkatesa Samo Devo NaBhootho NaBhavishyathi" ||

-- Aditya Purana & Bhavishya Purana

SKANDA PURANA:

In Skanda Purana under "Vaishnava Khanda" glories of Lord Venkatesha & Tirumala-hill is mentioned with title "Venkatachalamahatmya (bhoomi-varaha-Khanda)".

Eu- logizing Lord Venkateshwara, Suta Maharshi (Suta Gowami) says -

"A man, who has the good fortune of seeing the divine appearance of Lord Srinivasa(sriman Narayan) even for a moment, attains salvation."

Skanda Puran also mentioned Sri Venkatesa Stotra(prayer) by Sage Padmanabha. This stotram(Prayer) has 6 stanzas only first stanza is mentioned below and remaining will be mentioned in the next post.

"1.Namo devasdhi devaaya, sarngine ,

Nararayanadhri vasaya , srinivasaya they nama.||"

Translation: Salutations to the God of Gods who holds the Sarnga bow,

Salutation to Srinivasa who lives on the Narayana mountain.

Let us salute this Lord on the top of Saptha Giri now:

NaarAyaNaadhri-nivAsAya SrInivAsaya tE nama:

SeshAchala nivAsAya SrInivAsAya tE nama:

Siva-BrahmAdhi vandhyAya SrInivAsAya tE nama:

PraNathArTi-vinAsAya SrInivAsAya tE nama:

Dhushta rAkshasa samharthrE SrInivAsAya tE anama:

BhakthAnAm pApa samharthrE SrInivAsAya tE anma:

--Excerpts from SkAndha PurANam

Translation: Here the Salutations is to the destroyer of all Paapams (Venkatam), who is worshipped by Siva and Brahma and who resides on top of the NaarAyaNadhri and SeshAdhri.

BHAVISHYOTTARA PURANA:

Lord's Form or Posture in Tirumala Temple:

Bhavishyottara Purana describe the Lord's bewitching postures. Details are as follows: The Lord's lower arms are held in a unique pose. The right arm is held in the "Vara Mudra", with the fingers pointing to His lotus feet, telling us that it is they (His tiruvadi) that form both our everlasting refuge and also the strategy to attain the same. Since this posture indicates the granting of the ultimate boon ("Varam") of His tiruvadi, it is known as "Vara Mudra".

The lower left hand is held at the hip, slightly bent inwards, assuring us not to be terrified of the unfathomable ocean of Samsaara, which would only be hip-deep to those who perform Sharanagati at His lotus feet, as indicated by His right palm. The following slokas from the Bhavishyottara Purana describe the Lord's bewitching postures and their purport-

"darsayan paaNinaikena dakshiNena Vrishaakapi: Pada padmam gatim cha paramaam nrinaam kati nyasta kareNaapi nija paadaabja gaaminaam nrunaam bhava payo raasim kati daghnam pradarsayan viraajate Venkatesha: sampratyapi ramaapati: ||".

Thus Srinivasa's postures are indicative of the incomparable combination of His Paratvam and Soulabhyam, both of which are required for the protection of mortals, for, Supremacy without accompanying mercy and related traits would make for a tyrant, while mere accessibility without requisite Supremacy would render the Lord well-meaning but impotent and incapable of protecting us. It is this winning combination of complementary and supplementary virtues which makes Srinivasa unique and matchless.

It is also noteworthy that the Lord of Tiruvenkatam points to His tiruvadi with His open right palm, symbolically indicating the Bhagavat Gita dictum to surrender to Him--"Maam Ekam sharanam vraja!", thereby confirming that this Lord is indeed Sri Krishna (Venkata Krishna) of the kaliyuga.

BhavishyOttara Puraana: The BhavishyOttara Puraana furnishes the example of a brahmin called Maadhava, who had slipped from being a pious and devout paragon of virtues, to a condemnable existence with all sorts of unbecoming conduct. The moment this Madhava accidentally he touched the Venkatachala Hills, all the sins residing in his him burnt themselves out and exited from his body with a great noise and flame, proving to the astounded onlookers the efficacy of the Hills and of its presiding deity in destroying accumulated misdeeds, just as the fire annihilates rubbish.

Bhavishyottara Purana considers Tiruvenkatamudayaan verily as Sri Krishna Himself and equates the ant hill from which the Lord emerged to be Sri Devaki, the Tamarind tree atop it to be Sri Vasudeva, Sri Balarama, avataara of Sri Adisesha, as Seshaachalam, the hallowed hilly terrain of Tirumala as Mathura, the Swami Pushkarini asYamuna nathi and the varied fauna and flora of the hills, which spend their lives in the service of the Lord, as the Gopa kanyaas.

It is also noteworthy that the Lord of Tiruvenkatam points to His tiruvadi with His open right palm, symbolically indicating the Bhagavat Gita dictum to surrender to Him--"Maam Ekam sharanam vraja!", thereby confirming that this Lord is indeed Sri Krishna (Venkata Krishnan) of the kaliyuga.

ADITYA PURANA(MAHA UPA PURANA):

Aditya Purana contains SrI vEmkaTESa mAhAtmyam (Glories of Lord Sri Venkatesha & Tirumala).

Sage SrI VedavyAsa encapsulated, the proclaimed mahima, in another masterpiece, called SrI vEmkaTESa mAhAtmyam as part of AdityapurANAmtargata prabamdham.

The great sage sUta maharshi described the mAhAtmyam of the Lord to the sages Saunaka munis as per their request on the shores of the holy river Ganga (at a place called naimikAraNyam - several anecdotes were mentioned in the purANAs about the sthala mahima of the place).

Appropriately, the place of narration of VEmkaTESa mAhAtmyam by the great sage sUta also adds dignity, sanctity and splendor due to the sthala mahima. The place, time and the narrator are significant factors to implant, nurture and enhance the devotion in the minds of the audience.

one of the verses of Aditya puran:

"Venkatadri Samam Sthanam Brahmande Nasthi Kinchana

Venkatesa Samo Devo NaBhootho NaBhavishyathi" ||

Sloka Meaning: In the Universe there is no sacred place equivalent to Venkatadri (Tirumala) and there is no God equivalent to Lord Venkateswara neither in the past nor in the future going to be. This sloka is mentioned in Varaha Purana and also in Aditya Purana by Sri Vedavyasa & this sloka was told by Suta maharshi to sages named Saunaka munis in a place called Naimisharanya.

MARKANDEYA PURAN:

Markandeya purana mentions "Sri Venkateshwara Vajra Kavacha Sthothram" by sage Markandeya. This stotram(Prayer) contains 5 stanzas only first stanza is mentioned below and remaining will be mentioned in the next post.

"Narayanam Parabrahma,

sarvakaarana kaaranam

Prapadye Venkatesakhyaam,

Tadeva kavacham mama. ||".....

Translation: I bow and salute that Venkatesa, Who is lord Narayana himself, Who is the divine Lord of all, And who is the cause of all causes, And chant his armour for myself.

MaarkaNDEya Puran, Second Chapter verses of Theertha KaaNDam:

Jaya Deva! JagannATa ! SarvalOkaika Vanditha

Jaya VenkatasailEsa ! KaruNAkara ! Paahi na:

KrupAnidhE! Namas-thubhyam VaradAya NamO nama:

VenkatAdhIsa! VISVESA! Satha KruthvO namO nama:

(meaning): Hail to Thee Oh Lord of the Universe worshipped by all the beings of Your universe! Hail to Thee Oh Lord of Venkatam hills! Oh Most Merciful One! Please protect us.

Oh the treasure house of Daya! Oh matchless boon-granter!

Our salutations to You ! Oh VISVESA! Our repeated salutations

to You!

PADMA PURANA:

Padam Purana contains"Sri Venkatesha Sahasra Nam" which is 1008 names of Lord Sri Venkatesha (Sri Venkatesha Sahasra Nama is different from Vishnu sahasranama. Pradma Purana, Uttara Khanda section contains Vishnu sahasranama) .

According to Padma Purana, Sri Venkateswara is the incarnation of supreme Lord Vishnu in Kalyug. His consort Padmavathi(Alamelumanga) is none other than Goddess Mahalaxmi herself.

The Padma Purana gives a vivid description of the advent of the Goddess and subsequent wedding with Lord Srinivasa.

BRAHMA PURANA:

According to the Brahma Purana, Lord Vishnu wanted a change from Vaikuntha, so he inquired from Narada Muni about a place on earth for diversion and sport. Narada suggested Sesachalam (the head of Ananta Sesa on this Earth).

VAMANA PURANA: The Vamana Purana extolls the glory of the Vimana of Tirumala Venkateshwara Temple in the following verse:

"Vimanam sarva paapagnam sarva lokeshu vishrutam apraakritam anaadyantam Vaikunttat aagatam mahat ||"

This very Vimanam, which is renowned in all worlds, is extra-terrestrial and without a beginning and an end, is capable of comprehensively destroying all our sins, says the sloka.

The word Vimanam can be broken into "Visishta maanam", meaning the most exalted of all authority (Pramaanam), since it reveals to us the most magnificent of all things to be known (Prameyam), viz., the Lord.

VEDAS: Sri Vaishna sampraday(Sri Vaishnavate tradition) opines that the Rig Veda verse X.155.1 makes an indirect reference to the temple. One such translation goes as: “The person, devoid of wealth and vision, is implored to go to the hill which burns up all evil (vikata for Venkata) and drives away all obstacles to peace and prosperity. The call of the rishi Sirimbitha has obviously not gone in vain".Ahtunowhiho (talk) 14:52, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Vandalism or legit?

I saw this:

"All mantras originated here, I got venkaTESa mantram from infancy itself. Narada chanted nArAyaNa mantram, prahlAda got nArasimha mantram vibheeshaNa lovingly took up rAma mantram, I got venkaTESa mantram."

In English text it looks like vandalism to me. Please revert if I got it wrong. Manytexts (talk) 04:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

The "lord" should be removed .

The world "lord" before "venkateswara" should be removed ,because in the article "Jagannath" , there is no "lord" before the name, in the article "Rangannatha", there is no "lord" before the name. Even in the article"Jesus", there is no "lord" before the name. So, as my concern, the word "lord" should be removed from "Venkateswara" , if not, then the word "lord" should be added before to all the other articles I have mentioned abhove. Justice should be done. Thank you Pratimatripathy (talk) 11:46, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Venkateswara

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Venkateswara's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Tirumalatemple":

• From Ananda Nilayam: Dr N Ramesan (1981). The Tirumala Temple. Tirumala: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams.
• From History of Tirumala Venkateswara Temple: Dr. N.Ramesan (1981). The Tirumala Temple. Tirumala: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams.
• From Sri Malayappa Swami: Ramesan, N (1981). The Tirumala Temple. Tirumala: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams.
• From Tirumala Rama Idol: Dr N Ramesan (1981). The Tirumala Temple. Tirumala: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams. ISBN 81-85427-95-X.
• From Koluvu Srinivasa: Ramesan, Dr N (1981). The Tirumala Temple. Tirumala: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams.
• From Tirumala Dhruva Bera: Ramesan, Dr. N. (1981). The Tirumala Temple. Tirumala: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams.
• From Deities in Tirumala Venkateswara Temple: Ramesan, Dr N (1981). The Tirumala Temple. Tirumala: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams. ISBN 978-81-85427-95-9.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 13:36, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Biblical references

I have removed the references to Baal as a name for Venkateshwara and other related conjecture. There is no basis for any of this and it serves to obfuscate rather than illuminate. If anyone wishes to reinsert please at least make clear that such discussion is merely speculation.

Rename article as Venkateshvara

I propose that the article be renamed as, "Venkateshvara" in order to standardise the spelling. If you agree, please make your consent known below so that we can act on this change. Chronikhiles (talk) 09:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Ok 2401:4900:8093:1944:5F68:1CDC:98A3:5BB3 (talk) 13:10, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Chronikhiles I agree based on WP:CRITERIA and WP:CONSISTENT. I'm seeing it spelled both ways in reliable English sources [1] [2] [3], so opting for consistency to match the standardized spelling with other similar article titles would make sense. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

What other articles are you all taking about? — DaxServer (t · m · c) 20:06, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm referring to other names of articles that are also spelled both ways such as Alvars or Alwars, Sarasvati River or Saraswati River, Bhuvaneshvari or Bhuvaneshwari, Ishvara or Ishwara, Svarga or Swarga and etc. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 02:25, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Same rationale as @Eucalyptusmint. I would like to ask @Rasnaboy and @Dāsānudāsa for their opinion on this. Chronikhiles (talk) 03:15, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Support whatever is consistent, so wouldn't oppose a move to Venkateshvara. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 08:34, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

"W" spellings are what I think I've come across frequently so far for these terms (such as "Venkateshwara", "Saraswathi", "Bhuvaneshwari", "Ishwara" etc.). However, I admit that I'm not speaking statistically but only based on my superficial observations. That said, I would like to go by consistency and I agree with the proposed change. Rasnaboy (talk) 09:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

"Saraswati" alone has so many variations. We've got Saraswati, but Sarasvati River, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Jayendra Saraswathi, etc. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed and perhaps more of a reason to adopt a consistent style of spelling, whether "V" or "W", for such entries since we are building an encyclopedia. Also, the last two that you mentioned look like names of people, so I feel that it wouldn't be applicable to them since they are official names. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:21, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I believe WP:CONSISTENT and WP:COMMONNAME conflict when it comes to this conversation. @DougWeller @Materialscientist Could you help us arrive at a consensus moving forward? Chronikhiles (talk) 05:50, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Just on the last point, their 'official' names are in Bengali and Tamil, respectively. We are transcribing them to the Roman alphabet, which can be done in numerous ways, and you often see "Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati", with a W, for example. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 11:18, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

@Dāsānudāsa Thanks for that clarification, I was mistaken, I see that their official names are different than their given names and was actually referring to their given names in my comment. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:20, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

@Hellomesu You are correct that Venkateswara is the WP:COMMONNAME, but the discussion we had regarding the name change achieved consensus according to WP:CONSISTENT. The fact of the matter is that the W sound does not exist in Sanskrit, which is what encouraged me to initiate this discussion in the first place. I do believe that accuracy is important in an encyclopedia. Chronikhiles (talk) 01:50, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@Chronikhiles I'm a life long devotee of Venkateswara. This is the first time in my life someone is using "Venkateshvara" rather than "Venkateswara". Upon searching the internet, "Venkateshvara" is a rarity. Even Google search autocorrects to "Venkateswara". The Tirupati temple website (https://www.tirumala.org/srk1.aspx) and nearly all the hindu temples use "W" rather than "V". Using V insteading of W just leads to more confusion. Hence, I feel we should just leave it as "W" and not use "V". Hellomesu (talk) 01:39, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@Chronikhiles based on everyone's comments so far, to me, it seems that we are all in agreement that we support whichever option is the most consistent. I noticed that you've also proposed a similar change (standardizing name) to the Padmavathi article. Since this has implication to other articles as well it might be beneficial to get others' opinions as well through something like a RfC. Am also open to other ideas, what do you all think? Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

@Eucalyptusmint Got it, I was just waiting to see if others would like to chip in as well. Regarding the Padmavathi article, I later found that Padmavati exists as a disambiguation page. I was unsure as to how to proceed in that regard. Would Padmavati (goddess) be an appropriate title? Chronikhiles (talk) 04:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

To everyone involved: Since Venkateshvara is currently a redirect to Venkateswara, I am unable to move the article myself. I have requested technical assitance towards the same. Chronikhiles (talk) 05:02, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I believe the MOS says to avoid clarifiers in brackets in favour of unique titles, so I think Padmavathi would be preferred to Padmavati (goddess), because the latter requires disambiguation. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 08:14, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

@Dāsānudāsa Noted. Chronikhiles (talk) 11:49, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Chronikhiles. @Dāsānudāsa are you referring to WP:TITLEDAB? Eucalyptusmint (talk) 18:48, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

That's the one! Or WP:NATURAL specifically. "Adding a disambiguating term in parentheses after the ambiguous name is Wikipedia's standard disambiguation technique when none of the other solutions lead to an optimal article title (emphasis mine). Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:06, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Ah okay, I see what you mean. Thanks! Eucalyptusmint (talk) 14:13, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The page name should be Venkateswara as per WP:COMMONNAME. Even TTD, the official management group of Tirupati temple always uses Venkateswara. Reo kwon (talk) 10:53, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi Reo kwon, it's spelled both ways according to reliable sources (I've mentioned them above) and as a result, there was consensus to opt for consistency since there is WP:DIVIDEDUSE of the spelling. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 23:34, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Venkateswara is the standrad spelling. Venkteshvara can be added as a variant spelling. The official source Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanam overwhelmingly uses Venkateswara. In Andhra Pradesh, where the temple is located, English language sources predominantly use Venkateswara. People should note that it is not a pure Sanskrit name, but rather a Sanskritized Telugu/Tamil name. We use the spelling Rameswaram as the page title for the pilgrimage site, rather than Rameshvaram as per IAST Sanskrit transliteration. Similarly, the name of this article should be Venkateswara as per WP:COMMONNAME, with Venkteshvara listed as an alternative spelling.

And, as regards consistency, most Hindu temples in Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu consistently use w instead of v, and s instead of sh in English spellings of the temples and Gods. Some of the most famous and prominent temples include Srikalahasteeswara temple, Bhimeswara Temple, Draksharamam, Ksheera Ramalingeswara Temple, Someswara Temple, Kumararama Bhimeswara, Samarlakota, Amareswara Temple, Amaravati, Bugga Ramalingeswara temple, Pallikondeswara Temple, Surutapalli, Kukkuteswara Temple, Jaladheeswara Temple, Sangameswara Temple, Someswara Swamy Temple, Appikonda and many more.

And, there are thousands of Venkateswara temples in every nook and corner of Andhra. And the vast majority of them overwhelmingly and consistently use Venkateswara as the standard spelling. Some of the most famous ones include Venkateswara Temple, Dwaraka Tirumala, Venkateswara Temple, Tenali, Narapura Venkateswara Temple, Jammalamadugu, Prasanna Venkateswara Temple, Appalayagunta, Kalyana Venkateswara Temple, Narayanavanam. Even major temples outside India consistently use Venkateswara. For example, Sri Venkateswara Temple, Pittsburgh, Sri Venkateswara Temple (New Jersey), Sri Venkateswara Swami (Balaji) Temple in Greater Chicago, Sri Venkateswara Temple of North Carolina, Sri Venkateswara Temple of Central Ohio, Sri Venkateswara Lotus Temple, Fairfax, Sri Venkateswara Temple of Austin, Sri Venkateswara Swamy Temple of Colorado, Lakshmi Venkateswara Temple, Seattle, VEDA Sri Venkateswara Temple, Sri Venkateswara (Balaji) Temple, Minnesota, Sri Dasavathara Venkateswara Swami Temple Columbia, Malibu Sri Venkateswara Hindu Temple California, Sri Venkateswara Temple Of Texas, Shri Venkateswara (Balaji) Temple of UK, Shri Venkateswara Balaji Temple in Tividale, UK, Sri Venkateswara Temple (SVT) Sydney, Sri Venkateswara Hindu Temple Hamilton, Sri Venkateswara Swamy Temple of Wellington, Sri Prasanna Venkateswara Temple - Mauritius.

As can be seen from the numerous examples above, Venkateswara is by far the most common and consistent spelling of the deity. I can provide further examples of hundreds of temples in towns and villages of Andhra where Venkateswara is the common spelling as per English-language sources like newspapers, directories, district gazetteers, travel guides, Google Maps location info, etc. The page has been hastily moved and without significant discussion. By moving it to Venkateshvara, the page has been made inconsistent with dozens of other famous temples of the deity and also with the page names of the most other famous temples in Andhra. It should be moved back to Venkateswara as per the overwhelming evidence that Venkateswara is not only the official but also the most common and consistent selling as per diverse English-language sources across the globe. Reo kwon (talk) 09:45, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I can see the point you're trying to make, however the names you've listed are names of temples which are official names of places. This discussion is about the deity whose name is spelled two different ways in reliable english and academic sources and therefore there's WP:DIVIDEDUSE. So to say that Venkateswara is the official spelling isn't entirely true otherwise we would see this reflected in WP:RS where only that version of the spelling is consistently used. But it's not, as can be seen in this source by oxford university press where it's spelled with a v and in this one by routledge where it's spelled with a w. Additionally, the previous consensus was reached based on WP:CONSISTENT (which I'd encourage you to take a peek at when you have a moment because it doesn't have to do with how names are spelled locally). And while I still support the move based on that policy, am open to hear others' thoughts as well. Thanks. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:51, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

however the names you've listed are names of temples which are official names of places.

Who do you think these temples are named after? Jesus, Shiva, Zoroaster, Buddha, Moses, Indra, Varuna, Agni, Poleramma? I wrote a very, very elaborate comment documenting over 40 cases of the world's largest temples dedicated to the deity all consistently and overwhelmingly referring to the deity as Venkateswara. Reo kwon (talk) 08:39, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree with @Reo kwon that the use of Venkateswara is pretty consistent across the world and is used by the Tirupati temple where Venkateswara is the deity. This discussion is the first place to I heard Venkateshvara. We should use Venkateswara for this page. Hellomesu (talk) 09:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

@UtherSRG Please see the above discussion. I have provided very detailed evidence from 40 of the largest temples of the deity from across the world. All of them consistently and overwhelmingly use the spelling Venkateswara for the deity. Also, note that the spelling with w and s is standard for most Andhra/South Indian deities as I have documented with dozens of examples from famous temples of other Hindu deities from Andhra. By moving the page to Venkateshvara, it has been made inconsistent with dozens of other famous temples of the deity and also with the page names of most other Hindu deities of Andhra/South India.

In light of the above evidence, and the lack of other convincing arguments, as per the WP:CONSISTENT and WP:COMMONNAME policies, please move the page back to the title Venkateswara. Reo kwon (talk) 07:43, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Please open a formal WP:RM discussion. This will allow the discussion to be known by various projects that may have concern over the naming. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:46, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 10 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Even subtracting the suspected canvassed !votes, I still see a consensus to move. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:33, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

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Venkateshvara → Venkateswara – Move RM as suggested by UtherSRG above for wider discussion. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

• Leaning towards Support as WP:COMMONNAME (apart from being the official name as per his chief temple [4])
  • Ngrams
  • Trends
  • Indian newspapers also use Venkateswara Hindustan Times, Times of India, Indian Express as well as BBC
  • Also as per User:Reo kwon's list in the above section.

Will check on Books usage once, before affirming my view. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:06, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Inviting User:Chronikhiles, User:Eucalyptusmint, User:Rasnaboy, User:Dāsānudāsa, User:Hellomesu, UtherSRG - participants in the above discussion.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:11, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject QRpedia, WikiProject Hinduism, WikiProject Mythology, WikiProject India, WikiProject Religion, and WikiProject Nepal have been notified of this discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 20:43, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Oppose I would oppose this change per WP:CONSISTENT. I understand that Venkateshvara is not the WP:COMMONNAME on this encyclopedia, but the present title is consistent with other articles on this website such as Ishvara, Ishvari, and Bhuvaneshvari. Venkateshvara might not be commonly used in newspapers, but it is widely employed in scholarly works on Hinduism (examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5). Chronikhiles ^(talk) 07:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Support for move to Venkateswara since Venkateswara is the name used by main Tirupati temple.[5] and is used by nearly all the temples as the name of the deity. There are a number of scholarly works on Hinduism that use Venkateswara too (examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). Hellomesu (talk) 08:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose for reasons I've already mentioned in the discussions above. Still on the fence about if there is an actual official spelling, because it would otherwise be consistently spelled that way by scholars, i.e. Diana Eck here [6]. On the flip side this isn't the case for the temple's name which is consistently being spelled the same across sources, even if that source spells the deity's name with a v. Also @Hellomesu, this isn't a scholarly source, it's a comic series and interestingly, the third source above, in the google page info in the "About this edition" and "About the work" sections it's spelled Venkatesvara. Also @Redtigerxyz jw/curious Venkateswara is also used as a last name/publisher name, would the Ngrams and Trends include these? Eucalyptusmint (talk) 15:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Strong support. As I have clearly documented Venkateswara is the most apt title for the page as per the WP:CONSISTENT and WP:COMMONNAME policies.

Venkateswara is consistent with the spellings Srikalahasteeswara, Bhimeswara, Ksheera Ramalingeswara, Someswara, Bhimeswara, Amareswara, Ramalingeswara, Pallikondeswara Temple, Kukkuteswara, Jaladheeswara, Sangameswara, Someswara and numerous other names of Hindu deities across South India. Reo kwon (talk) 18:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Very Strong Support for move to Venkateswara since Venkateswara is the name used by main Tirupati temple trust (TTD).[7] and is used by nearly all the temples as the name of the deity. All Hindu deities are named using Swara. There are a number of scholarly works on Hinduism that use Venkateswara too (examples 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). Fostera12 (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Strong Support. Venkateswara is the spelling used by the main temple at Tirupati. It is not only the most visited Hindu temple but also the most visited religious site in the world. Ideally, this should seal the deal. Even if we look at other famous temples of the deity, all of them use Venkateswara pretty consistently (as per above posts). This very clearly establishes that Venkateswara is the WP:COMMONNAME for the deity.

Furthermore, Venkateswara is also widely used in various academic sources. For example, in books: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. In academic journals: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. Nikh Nori (talk) 13:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: Expressing concern that Nikh Nori and Fostera12 have been canvassed to this discussion, diff 1 and diff 2. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 00:52, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  Facts are facts, no canvassing required to prove facts. Thanks. Fostera12 (talk) 04:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  I would have commented the exact same thing if I had come across the page by myself. Venkateswara is the family deity of most Andhra people and changing the name used by tens of millions of devout devotees across the world would mean your position would be contradicted by facts, with or without canvassing. Also, your comment seems ad-hominem presuming that people don't have agency and would simply fall for pleas. Nikh Nori (talk) 13:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.