Talk:Vestavia Hills High School

Assess

This is good. Its someway between a "start" and a "B". Ive gone for "start" (just!). I would like to see the references done with the ref and references tags. Alumni and importance is only low at present. Come a long way since the proposed delete below. Stilln needs polishing - some pics? Victuallers 21:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

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For a May 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Vestavia Hills High School

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Disagree with vote. Could be cleaned and improved. Let's not discriminate against people adding real content just because we don't think they're "scholarly" enough.--206.107.239.77 15:44, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article should not have been listed for speedy deletion, but I have listed it on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion. Schools are a very contentious issue on Wikipedia. Rje 16:14, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

Concerns about the content of the Mascot section

This is the place to discuss the content of the Mascot section article.  —SMALLJIM  15:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

SmallJim, exactly who are you to allow the sexual content and misinformation on the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Correcting the bias (talk • contribs) 16:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm just someone trying to explain to you what the policies of this website are. As I said on your talk page, WP is not censored: see WP:NOTCENSORED.  —SMALLJIM  16:06, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

However, you could possibly argue that the inclusion of this much information represents giving it undue weight, or that it is unnecessary recentism, but it's up to you to persuade the other interested editors of this.  —SMALLJIM  16:13, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

SmallJim, your banning of correction of the information has a lot of parents very upset that Wiki would allow such misinformation about the image of their children to be posted world wide. Until this issue is resolved, would you at least remove any reference to a mascot? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Correcting the bias (talk • contribs) 18:44, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

The mascot is the most interesting and notable aspect about this school. The issue has been discussed in countless reliable sources. And I'm quite tempted to write an article on the subject as it seems to easily meet WP:GNG. As Jim has said, Wikipedia is not censored. The section could likely be expanded, because I disagree that it gives undue weight, in fact in likely doesn't give due weight to the issue. Though the counter arguments that it is not racist likely could be more fairly represented. Winner 42 Talk to me! 21:39, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more that we should add pro-mascot sources if any of them exist. The entire article has had a reference request tag since 2010 btw...Zigzig20s (talk) 21:55, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Correcting the bias, I was the admin who fully protected the article after a request at RFPP, not Smalljim. The version including the mascot info was just the version that was current when protection was applied. Obvious factual errors (not WP:IDONTLIKETHIS) should be removed but anything else needs to get consensus. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:11, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 July 2015

Please edit to section regarding Mascot. This is disputed, and should not be treated as fact. Also, a quote at the end of the section is extremely inappropriate for the page of an educational institution. Wikipediacook (talk) 17:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Wikipediacook: This is not an advertisement. If you can find other third party references about this mascot, please add them. Everything must be referenced.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:26, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

 Not done Please propose and get consensus for the change 'before using the edit request template. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Who and what is the source for this Mascot section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnnyCarson (talk • contribs) 04:49, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

If you take a look again at that particular section, you see footnote markers, which look like [1], at the end of sentences supported by a citation to a reliable source. If you hover your mouse arrow over a marker, you'll should see information about the source cited. If you click on the marker, it will take you to the sources entry in the "References" section. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:33, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 July 2015

I would like to improve the page by in-lining this reference, from Vestavia Hills, published by Arcadia Publishing. The whole article needs in-lined references throughout.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:51, 15 July 2015 (UTC) Zigzig20s (talk) 18:51, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Zigzig20s: Please state exactly where this cite would go. Others: Is there anything controversial about this request? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:14, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I would add that the land upon which this school was built was given by Polish-born Louis and Minnie Pizitz's son Hortense to the City of Vestavia Hills in the 1960s. I think we could have a "history" section. That would make this article look more encyclopedic and less like an advertisement. I just looked for this school on Google Books, as there is a reference request tag, and this is what I found. You're welcome to add the referenced info yourself though.Zigzig20s (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Zigzig20s, I'm asking because, as the instructions state, "This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request." I (or any other admin) will only make the exact changes requested to a fully protected article. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 22:31, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

You can add it or we can wait. I was just trying to be helpful by adding more references...Zigzig20s (talk) 22:33, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done for now: The request is still unspecific and/or unclear. If you would like to make your proposed changes to Draft:Vestavia Hills High School and then request sync, it might be easier. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:31, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Requesting sync.Zigzig20s (talk) 05:18, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

History

User:NeilN and User:MSGJ: So can we please add the history of the land? There is nothing "controversial" about this. It is purely fact-based. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 07:34, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused. The article came off protection more than 5 months ago. In fact, you have edited it since then. If you have edits to make, just add them yourself. Meters (talk) 07:46, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

OK. I've added a history section now, and inserted the 'controversy' content in the history section, as it is chronological. I've also deleted some unreferenced POV content. I think more needs to be trimmed--for example, do we really need the athletics section?Zigzig20s (talk) 08:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Please read WP:WPSCH/AG. The athletics section is a normal part of high school articles, and the content of the section in this article is appropriate. It needs proper references, but it certainly should not be removed. Meters (talk) 18:53, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Will it ever be referenced though? I would support removing it unless someone is able to reference it, which is doubtful.Zigzig20s (talk) 09:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Why are you so insistent on removing this section? The school has athletics teams as shown by the school website, so the section should not be removed. The listed championships were already referenced, but not properly. I have fixed the problem. Meters (talk) 20:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Mascot controversy (again)

The protection is long since off, and the entire section has just been blanked and restored 3 times in the last few hours. It has had lots of coverage and there are some solid refs in the section. The issue certainly seems worth including. The section can be tweaked, but I see no justification for blanking the entire section.

I moved the section down in the article since it did not seem appropriate to have it as the first section. Meters (talk) 07:08, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Close connection?

An IP address from Birmingham, Alabama may have a close connection. However, they made a good point and suggested two references we used were op eds (which they have deleted). Are there better sources, like history books, journal articles, etc.? I cited one book which explains the history of the land upon which the school was built, but it is harder to find much about the school per se. Should this school even have a Wikipedia page? Is it notable (other than being in one of the wealthiest zipcodes in Alabama)?Zigzig20s (talk) 16:00, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

User:NottNott: See above. What do you think?Zigzig20s (talk) 16:07, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

@Zigzig20s: I don't know anything about the subject matter, I'm just a recent changes patroller. The sources may not be perfect, but they still have merit in supporting statements that the IP is trying to remove. The school passes Wikipedia:Notability_(organizations_and_companies), so shouldn't be deleted. NottNott talk|contrib 16:20, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Notable Alumni

Before adding alumni please ensure that they have reliable sources to show that they are notable and that they attended the school. Normally alumni are not included unless they already have a wikiarticle. Meters (talk) 23:07, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

The recent inclusion of Samuel Crawford has been undone since he does nto have a wikiarticle, and the only source (Twitter) is not a WP:RS. If drum majors are notable then he can be included in this list when a wikiarticle establishing his notability has been accepted. Meters (talk) 23:11, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

That Twitter feed is an official feed so it is acceptable to show that Samuel Crawford is the Bluecoats' 2016 drum major, but it does not establish his notability or his connection to the high school. Meters (talk) 00:09, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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So called National Championships

I reverted am addition today of content claiming this school has won two national championships.

This is ludicrous. There are no national high school sports tournaments in the United States. The bit about baseball is outright fabrication. It's irrelevant what the reference to the school says, as an exceptional claim like national championship needs exceptionally good sources. Self sourcing is not sufficient. The newspaper reference did not in any way shape or form verify this claim. Understandably, as it is not possible to verify something that cannot possibly be true.

The cheer thing is not quite as clear, but there are numerous groups that organize cheer compatitions. It would be fine to say that they won the organizing group's national tournament, while making it clear how many schools were ultimately included in that entire competition. Characterizing it as a national championship, however, is quite inaccurate and is BOOSTERISM.

This is not the place to try to make your school sound good. If you stick to paraphrasing facts found in reliable sources independent of the school, this won't happen. John from Idegon (talk) 04:22, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

After using advanced searches, I discovered that the baseball title was actually an independent organization declaring them champions due to first place in multiple national rankings. Would it or would it not be boosterism to say, "In 1998, the VHHS baseball team was ranked first nationally by multiple organizations." I assume it would be? AdamsBHM021 (talk) 12:43, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Please indent your reply for clarity. No, that wouldn't. Best practice would be "The 1998 baseball team was ranked first in the nation by X"(reference to X), where X is the most reliable and relevant source on high school sports. My suggestion would be either USA Today or The Sporting News as those two sources have been consistently respected as authoritative coverers of high school sports. One sentence, no subsection. Being ranked in a poll should not carry the same weight as winning a tournament, as the former is only a significant opinion and the latter an actual achievement. John from Idegon (talk) 18:08, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

This seems like a reasonable way to include the baseball info, as long as it is from a reasonably authoritative source, as John points out. The supposed cheerleading title has serious pproblems too. The source as is cannot be used. It does not tell us who sanctioned the supposed title, whether it was for local, regional, state or national competition, or even what year the event took place. The home site gave more info about the group, but I'm not convinced that this is really the national cheerleading body. It only has 1800 or so school nationwide. It may well be one of several groups which organize cheerleading competitions, possibly even for profit (as happens in my area). Meters (talk) 20:49, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2018

Under "Athletics" it doesn't have all of the Girls Soccer State Championships. The ladies have won state championships in 2016 and, this year, 2018....in addition to the 2001, 2005, and 2007 that you already have listed.

As a reference, please see this verified wikipedia site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Alabama_High_School_Athletic_Association_championships 68.117.165.89 (talk) 03:13, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done.

1. Follow the instructions
2. Provide reliable published sources
3. Wikipedia is not an acceptable source

John from Idegon (talk) 03:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)