Talk:Voiceless dental and alveolar plosives

Using default font entity code considered potentially ugly

Please see Talk:Voiced bilabial plosive --James S. 19:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Occurrence of aspirated vs. non-aspirated /t/

"When /t/ occurs at the beginning of a word or a stressed syllable, like in try, senatorial, or today, then it is always aspirated." -- This is a bit oversimplified and inaccurate. As seen at Glottal_stop#In_English, in some dialects glottal stop can be found as the allophone of /t/ in some initial positions; in my idiolect at least, "today" in "Where did you go today?" can start with the flap allophone of /t/ (but if "today" is emphasized, it's usually aspirated).

"When /t/ occurs in a consonant cluster following [s], like in stop, strain, or register, then it is always unaspirated." -- Also not exactly true, in my experience. Words like "mistreatment" seem to often be pronounced with an aspirated /t/. Morpheme boundaries may have some influence here; I'm not sure if this is original research or not. 24.159.255.29 03:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Flap R

Should the American English practice of replacing t's with flap r's be included in the English section?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.165.87.237 (talk • contribs)

See the new style guidelines. There shouldn't even be an English section. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 09:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

T in French

I switched the french example of T on the dental T article, as french in T is obviously dental, you can also see it in the French phonology article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.2.72.57 (talk) 09:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

According to the source, French /t/ is alveolar. French phonology doesn't say either way (the consonant table has a single column for both dental and alveolar sounds). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

It isn't, is dental, I'm half french and I know it very well, if you know french, you can check the article in the French Wikipedia of this article, and it reports it as well "http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/API_t", and it clearly says "Le français possède le /t/. Cependant, contrairement à plusieurs langues, le /t/ français est dental [t̪].", it means that French has the T but contrary to other languages it's dental, then it's clearly all wrong, and also the french D is dental,it's a characteristic of Romance languages not found on Germanic ones as english or german, then trust me ;) 79.2.72.57 (talk) 09:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

What we want is proper sources on the matter. While the source used her, JIPA, is pretty good, it can get minor things like this wrong from time to time, so I'll see if I can't find other sources that weigh in. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:18, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

More proper source than a half french speaker? Ask some other french peoples they'll say exactly what I said, French T and D are the same as Italian and Spanish, then dental, and they sound slightly different from the english T and D, please is important for learners to know that, and as Wikipedia is a good source people must now that 79.2.72.57 (talk) 09:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

It is definitely dental, as it correctly points out August André in his Traité de prononciation française, p. 48. But alveolar allophones of dental stops may exist, especially before /ʃ, ʒ/ (Luciano Canepari, Manual of Pronunciation).--Carnby (talk) 14:01, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Hawai'ian

I thought Hawaiian uses k's in place of t's (where you would normally find t's in other Polynesian languages). Compare Hawaiian "kanaka" with Maaori "tangata" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.68.216 (talk) 03:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

You're right. I've changed the article accordingly. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Why is there NO ENGLISH EXAMPLE OF OCCURENCE ?

Why is there NO ENGLISH EXAMPLE OF OCCURENCE ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.251.232.110 (talk • contribs)

There is. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 19:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Present in nearly every language

I think this statement "Present in nearly every language, the voiceless unaspirated alveolar stop is one of the most common phones cross-linguistically", although referenced, is wrong: I'm a linguist and I know the voiceless dental stop is much more common in the languages of the world. Probably this misconception is due to the fact that two important languages such as English and German have alveolar stops (actually in Standard German they are dental-alveolar and regional pronunciations may vary), but, for example, I seriously doubt that French, Modern Greek and Norwegian have an alveolar stop.--Carnby (talk) 13:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

That's good to know. I suspect that the claim is more in regards to a class of coronal stops that include dental and alveolar articulations (something there isn't apparently a term for). There's actually a discussion at WT:WikiProject Linguistics regarding a potential merger of dental and alveolar consonant pages like this one. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 14:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I've read on an Italian reference books about phonetics (Luciano Canepari, Manual of Pronunciation) that French has two alveolar stops as allophones of /t, d/ (which are usually dental) before /ʃ, ʒ/; so the sounds exist, but they're not the "normal" French pronunciation. I don't think a merge of dental and alveolar stops would be a good idea, since the sounds are quite different, even if many phoneticians seem not to distinguish well between them.--Carnby (talk) 15:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

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Alveolar allophone in Finnish

I'm a native speaker and I certainly don't have an alveolar stop after r. Τέσσερα (talk) 13:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I changed it to after /s/ since this can be actually sourced, but I'm inclined to delete the whole thing as I feel that Finnish /t/ should always be laminal even if it has an alveolar allophone. Stockhausenfan (talk) 22:40, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Why only almost?

Why not ot all languages? א. א. אינסטלציה (talk) 08:45, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Right. I cannot imagine either any language that does not have the sound t. The writer who wrote "almost" should give an example of a language without t. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:C11E:800:C53C:724C:E8DC:3F6A (talk) 10:39, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Examples are given in the second paragraph (though marked as citation needed). Nardog (talk) 10:43, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Where is the pic for t?

It should be absolutely mandatory - well, at least desirable - to show for each sound the articulation picture - as it is given e.g. for ʃ. - The German article has the picture for t but not for ʃ. This, the English article, has the picture for ʃ but not for t. - Ridiculous. And I have not even checked for other sounds <as the above are the ones that interested me now>. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:C11E:800:C53C:724C:E8DC:3F6A (talk) 10:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Voiceless Alveolar Stop Voice Sample?

I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks this, but the audio sample for the alveolar stop/plosive in the top of this article (and even the alveolar sample in Voiced dental and alveolar plosives) sounds too similar to the dental stop in my opinion (I haven't heard any English speaker pronounce the alveolar stop like that). I feel this because if you compare that with the voice sample further below in the alveolar table in the English "tick", they sound quite different to one another, with the audio sample for "tick" sounding closer to an alveolar stop to my ears and the one at the top sounding very much like a dental stop. I had raised this topic two years ago at the Voiced dental and alveolar plosives talk page but since there was no response there, I thought I'd raise it here as well (meant to do this earlier but I kept forgetting to do it). Does anyone else feel that way? Broman178 (talk) 10:12, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I think there's been a mistake. Voiced_alveolar_plosive.ogg sounds like [d̪] and Voiceless_alveolar_plosive.ogg sounds like [t̪] to me too. Ben MacTavish (talk) 13:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, contrary to popular belief, the IPA letters in the alveolar column have no canonical active place. So it's technically not incorrect to illustrate ⟨t⟩ with an articulation of [t̻]. Nardog (talk) 01:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)