Talk:Wappinger

Wappinger proper name for Tribe

Wappinger is the proper name for the Native American Indian tribe formerly occupying the east bank of the Hudson River from northern Westchester to southern Duchess.

The errant term "Wappani" is a virally repeated Internet generated "urban myth"; there is no historical basis for it. It is, alas, someone's idea of the way an Indian tribe name should sound based on watching F-Troop (and its band of down on their luck Hekawis) as a kid, and took off from there.

Anyone who doubts this may do their own historical research: do not just revert the page. Check the facts as they can be known out for yourself first - noting that you'll have to weed through endless viral iterations of "Wappani" on the Internet; you will not, however, find them at legitimate pages documenting the history of Native American Indian tribes.

This is no joke. Do you think the town (river, etc.) in New York are the Town of Wappani, Wappani Falls, the Wappani River, and so on? All of which were named a century and two before the Internet arose. The tribe's name, an English corruption of the Natives' word in their tongue, is Wappinger. Wikiuser100 (talk) 15:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. Do you suppose the 1906 New York historical society was influenced by F-Troop? Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 16:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the cite: it is the first legitimate one I have ever seen using the terminology "Wappani". Though it is from a reputable source, the Native American tribe was referred to overwhelmingly as "Wappinger"; hence the name of the town, creek, etc., predating the NYHS reference. The preponderence of evidence and use lies with "Wappinger". The page move was made in good faith and should stand. Thank you. Wikiuser100 (talk) 16:13, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Those places have those names because the English and Dutch didn't care what the Wappingers called themselves. America is filled with town names based on mispronunciations - it doesn't render the original names obsolete. I'm from the Hudson Valley myself, and I would agree that in current usage "Wappinger" far outweighs "Wappani", but this is a self-referential term so modern usage doesn't necessarily matter.

It also works well for Wikipedia: "Wappani" doesn't need disambiguation, whereas "Wappinger (Native American tribe)" is both unnecessarily long and inaccurate (since the Wappingers were not actually a "tribe"). Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 16:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I do want to stress, however, that I am by no means a New York history expert, and would not argue strenuously against a move if a) consensus supports it, and b) a better title is found. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 16:36, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Wappinger (on its own) is preferred, with an appropriate otheruses link to the disambiguation page. That is what (and all) I tried initially to do but Wikipedia coding would not let me. Hence the new (and suboptimally long) article name. It is agreed the English and Dutch garbled Native American names, but "Wappinger" is the version that came out of it, and stuck...and was employed to name towns, creeks, and other entities honoring the tribe's heritage. That alone is sufficient to cement the appropriate name for the Wikipedia article, as (indicated above) the town is not "Wappani", nor the creek, fault, or anything else. Honestly, "Wappani" is first an ephemera and second an Internet virus, not a consensus name for the tribe and references to it. Wikiuser100 (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that "Wappinger" would be a good location for it, if we can also agree that "Wappani" is more than an Internet hoax. Wappinger currently redirects to a disambiguation page, which isn't necessary since we have a disambiguation note at the top of the page. I can move it, if you find that agreeable. Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 17:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. It may have multiplied virally but you indeed provided one bona fide historial iteration of it (that somehow I did not find when doing considerable private research on the Native American Indian tribes of the eastern Hudson Valley two years ago). I concur that "Wappinger" leading to a page of that name for the Indian tribe with a redirect to the disambiguation page may be sufficient. I'll leave all the technical aspects (so that there are not any broken links) to you. Thank you for your prompt and level headed address of this matter. Wikiuser100 (talk) 17:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Done. Good outcome! Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 17:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Not just done, well done. Cheers. Wikiuser100 (talk) 17:29, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Early use of term "Wappinger"

The term "Wappinger" was used in its full form as early as the 1650s, as contained in this compendium of transcriptions of original Dutch documents beginning in the 1630s: http://www.archive.org/stream/documentsrelativ13newyuoft/documentsrelativ13newyuoft_djvu.txt, with "Wapping" the most popular and "Wappingh" ranking next. Wikiuser100 (talk) 20:42, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the difference is that those documents are of Dutch referring to the Wappingers. Nimham's deed is the Wappingers referring to themselves with that term.

Also, if they're original Dutch documents, why are they in English? Kafziel ^{Complaint Department} 20:59, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Pompton people merge proposal

I came across an orphan, stub, Pompton people, and it appears "Pomptons" is simply a synonym for "Wappinger" as per Sturtevant, William C., gen. ed. Trigger, Bruce G., vol. ed. Handbook of North American Indians: Volume 15, Northeast, page 238. The Access Genealogy article cited doesn't even used the word "Pompton." -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

You couldn't merge the Pomptons and the Wappinger subjects because the Pomptons were a condensed Tribe. Yes there were Wappingers included but the name Pompton (Pumpton/Pamapon)includes local Tribes such as the Ramapough. Chief Catoonah who was the Sachem of the Ramapoos in Connecticut originated from the Ramapo/Pompton Tribe and was forced to move to Connecticut by the Dutch. There is a map of the Ramapoo Village from 1625. This tells us the Ramapo/Pompton Tribe in NJ existed before at least 1600. (before the Wappingers moved to the area). Ramapoughnative (talk) 16:24, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide more secondary sources that say the Pomptons are somehow separate or distinct from the Wappinger — that isn't original research? As I posted above the Access Genealogy source does not mention the word "Pompton," and the Handbook mentions Pompton only once as another name for Wappinger. Angelfire sites don't qualify as secondary published sources, and the Twin Commonwealth site lists "Pompton" as a synonym for "Oping." You have a article for Ramapough Mountain Indians—that's cited and stands on its own merits. Perhaps a merge of Pompton people into the Ramapough article is more appropriate? -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:20, 13 January 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

This is some of my references: about Catoonah originating from Ramapo/Pamapon. This is from the Bearce family history on file in the NY Public Library. http://catalog.nypl.org/iii/encore/search/C%7CSFranklyn+BeArce%7COrightresult%7CU1?lang=eng&suite=pearl

"Capt Thomas Chicken Warrups, son of old Chicken Ist, whos wife was a daughter of Ca-too-na, Pamapon Sachem, of a band of Delawares, who had been forced out of New Jersey by the encroachment of the Dutch, settled in Conn."

The map of Ramapo, Connecticut (Now Ridgefield) on a map dated 1625. Catoonah was the Sachem. http://www.historyofredding.com/HRearlysettlers.htm (scroll down to see map) All of this was before a band of Wappingers were forced out of Connecticut and invited to live in NJ by the Minsi around 1640. I say a band of Wappingers because the Wappingers were also a condensed Tribe, same as the Ramapo of Connecticut and the Ramapo/Pomptons of New Jersey. During the time of the Dutch, chaos ruled and they were shipping Natives out to be slaves in the Caribbeans. Native families were scattering to anywhere it was safe. Ramapoughnative (talk) 21:26, 13 January 2011 (UTC) Also have this.. http://www.dickshovel.com/wap.html "After the war, some groups of Wappinger crossed over to northern New Jersey and settled among the Unami and Munsee where they became known as the Pompton." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramapoughnative (talk • contribs) 01:14, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. You might consider adding these sources to the Pompton people article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 03:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

thanks! I will do..I do think linking the Pomptons to the Wappingers would be a good idea since they are related... your input? Ramapoughnative (talk) 04:00, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Definitely, especially since it's an orphan - you should link it to any related article you can find. -Uyvsdi (talk) 04:59, 14 January 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

"New England" Tribes?

Why mention New England when talking about Native America? There was no "New England" when the natives had their land! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.104.4 (talk) 21:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Here New England is being used as a convenient geographical reference -- that is, to the tribes inhabiting land east of New York. Since the confederacy began in the 17th century, New England actually did already exist. Best, Markvs88 (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

And Native Americans didn't suddenly disappear the second the US was formed. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Relocated content

The following content has been relocated here from a revision as of 13:48, July 28, 2014, which reverted edits by user 67.189.204.150, by User:Bentogoa. Reason: addition of unsourced content (HG)).

Source: Freemasonry and the American Revolution, Sidney Morse, 1924

3000? [comment inserted by OP following existing content where copy was originally posted]

in 1805 general Clinton and Sullivan destroyed 40 Indian towns with in a 40 mile trip, their crops, fruit trees and over 100,000 bushels of corn. This was between Elmira NY and Genesee Valley. This 3000 estimate is propaganda wrong, The Wappingers were a family of the Tawakoni tribe (Taconic or sometimes written Pachami) of the Lenape Indian tribe of the north east. The Wappinger held one mountain range, just as the Nochiapeem, and Woarani held the next. Each family held a town sized area, with in a larger family name that held a state sized area (towakani held southern New York, New Jersey and parts of Pennsylvania with in a larger tribal name that held a regional area(Lenape). The Wappani (wappingers) never held outside of the Fishkill area. They were simply forced outside that area as they joined with other tribal families to fight for survival as community efforts were always the focus not who owns which land. This is a European concept that avoids the Indian Culture. Further more the Dutch India(n) trading company relied on the tribes as their supply company. The East India trading company was in stark competition with the Dutch east and west India trading companies and this often gets confused when the land grab started. It is far too complex to blame these issues completely upon the Dutch. France England and Dutch played huge parts in the demise of the massive (hundreds of thousands) Indian population of southern Hudson valley who were laboring in mines and tending farm fields for centuries. The field stone walls of new England have a huge story to tell.

Other content from same source by same poster has been integrated in its own section at the main article page. Wikiuser100 (talk) 20:50, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Relocated content II

The following content was relocated here from the main page for lacking citation:

In one massacre of woman and children during war of 1812 in what is now Putnam County, New York, on Nimham mountain more than 3000 Nochpeem Indian lives were lost in this Indian town alone. They were buried in a long mound by Stephen Rensselaer III upon his return from defending the US from the French invaders. At this same time Isaac Brock of the English military marched 600 Indians before a French line 3 times (as targets), Stephen Rensselaer led his forces across Niagra, He defeated Brock who was pronounced deceased upon the battle field.

There are no known engagements of the War of 1812 in that area, and the few Wappinger remaining in the aftermath of the French and Indian Wars relocated to Stockbridge, Massachusetts, by the time of the American revolution and shortly after. Wikiuser100 (talk) 21:28, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Death of Daniel Nimham/Battle of Kingsbridge

A full account of the role of the Wappinger and death of their leader, Daniel Nimham, is found below:

It was on the 30th of August, 1778, that Ninham and his warrior band went forth to the field of their last battle. On that day they met with a scouting party of British under Colonel Emerick, and after a fierce engagement were compelled to retreat. On the following morning the whole of the British force at Kings Bridge was ordered out and the larger part was placed in an ambuscade, while Emerick was sent forward to decoy his assailants of the previous day. In the extreme northern part of the annexed portion of the city of New York is a stream that has borne from the earliest times the name of Tippets Brook. The wooded heights and the banks of the stream were the scenes of a most sanguinary conflict. The attempt to draw the Indians into the ambuscade failed, and upon their advance the British troops had scarecly time to fall into rank. The Indians lined the fences and commenced firing upon the forces under Colonel Emerick.

The Queen's Rangers moved rapidly to gain the heights, and Tarleton advanced with the Hussars and his famous Legion of Cavalry. This being reported to Lieutenant-Colonel Simcoe, he directed Major Ross to conduct his corps on the heights, and advancing to the road arrived within ten yards of Ninham and his men. Up to this time they had been intent on the attack upon Colonel Emerick. They now gave a yell and fired on the advancing enemy and wounded five, including Colonel Simcoe.

They were driven from the fence, and Tarleton rushed upon them with his cavalry and pursued them down Cortlandt's Ridge. Here Tarleton himself had a narrow escape. Striking at one of the fugitives, he lost his balance and fell from his horse. Fortunately for him the Indian had no bayonet and his musket was discharged. A captain of a company of American soldiers was taken prisoner with some of his men, and a company under Major Stewart, who afterwards distinguished himself at the storming of Stony Point, left the Indians and fled. The engagement was renewed with the fiercest vigor. The cavalry charged the ridge with overwhelming numbers, but were bravely resisted. As the cavalry rode them down, the Indians seizing their foes, dragged them from their horses, to join them in death. In a swamp, not far from the brook, Ninham made his last stand. When he saw the Grenadiers closing upon him and all hope of successful resistance gone he called out to his people to flee, but as for himself, "I am an aged tree, I will die here." Being attacked by Simcoe he wounded that officer, but was shot and killed by Wright, his orderly Hussar. In this fray the power of the tribe was forever broken. More than forty of the Indians were killed or desperately wounded.

From that time the Wappingers ceased to have a name in history. A few scattered remnants still remained, and as late as 1811, a small band had their dwelling place on a low tract of land by the side of a brook, under a high hill, in the northern part of the town of Kent. Historical and Genealogical Record Dutchess and Putnam Counties New York. Poughkeepsie, New York: Press of the A. V. Haight Co. 1912. pp. 62–79.

Wikiuser100 (talk) 21:18, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Valuable source on background of Wappinger bands

New York City in Indian Possession, Reginald Pelham Bolton 1920

https://books.google.com/books?id=bphEAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=tankiteke&source=bl&ots=64o8W0D7xk&sig=ACfU3U1nhbS1fqsWYjoZqjUW2coZ22yyEg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSpqvUgPbgAhWuiOAKHRikC_oQ6AEwCnoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=carmel&f=false Wikiuser100 (talk) 16:12, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Morse

I note that about five years ago, someone added some truly remarkable material, thus I am remarking: (I did not wish to remove a large portion (note that I did not say significant) w/o at least giving a heads up.) This needs to be either deleted in it's entirety or seriously trimmed. Why is so much space allocated to musings from a book written 95 years ago by an "inventor, geographer and journalist"?

• The 1685 Dutch map of New Netherland (which is posted twice) does not "place the Wappani tribe as one of many family tribes of the Tawakoni (Taconic) that lived in the Fishkill highlands". It does not even call them "Wappani", but "Wappinges"; there is no mention at all of any "Tawakoni";
• The Tawakoni are not Taconic near Fishkill, but a Southern Plains tribe that spoke Wichita, and were recognized as such from the early 18th century;
• The Sullivan Expedition took place not in 1805, but 1799. In either case, it was well after most of the Wappinger had relocated out of their ancestral territory;
• John Sullivan (general) and James Clinton were not British but American officers whom Washington dispatched to deal with a northern frontier conflict of attacks against settlers by Loyalists and their Iroquois allies. -Iroquois not even Algonquian;
• The forty Iroquois villages were located throughout the Finger Lakes region of western New York -no where near the old Wappinger territory;
• The first iron works were established by Philip Livingston in 1743 on the Roeliff Jansen Kill up in Ancram. -the Wappinger were not north of the Roeliff Jansen Kill;

I not sure if all this this is from the original poster or Morse, or the OP's interpretation of Morse, but all this is woefully irrelevant, and needs to come out. If the point is that Morse had some closely held ideas that the Dutch spirited the Guarani up to work some non-existent foundries in Pawling one sentence should suffice. If any reputable scholar supports any such notion that should be so indicted. These ideas, if retained at all, are best moved in Morse's article.Manannan67 (talk) 17:58, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

• cf:

• 
  Michael Keropian's Bronze Sculpture c.2009
• 
  Von Ewald contemporary sketch of a Stockbridge warrior, 1778

Relationship with the Lenape people?

There seem to be contradictory accounts, but we should probably address the nature of the relationship with the Lenape people. Whether the Wappinger might be considered a Lenape subgroup, or having some social affiliation but not being a subgroup, or of being connected only by a shared language. I have also read some sources that put the Wappinger as a group socially midway between the Lenape and Mahican cultures. If there is any modern scholarship on this question, certainly that would be best.--Pharos (talk) 05:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Some sources: [1], [2], [3], [4].--Pharos (talk) 16:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)