Talk:War of annihilation

Request re-assessment

The milhist prohect states that a start class article is "typically incomplete and lacks adequate references, structure, and supporting materials". Since this is not my work, merely a translation, I'm assessing it as an outsider and I don't see how that can apply to an article with ten sections and over 30 footnotes. ☆ Bri (talk) 13:23, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

• Bri: You are more likely to get a re-assessment and more detailed information on how to improve the article at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Requests. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:28, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

July 2021 edits

Preserving here by proving this link; my rationale was: "Removing WP:OR". More specifically, the section contained various examples of the use of the term, synthesising a certain narrative. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:10, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

No, this is not synthesis. Those are sourced examples of usage of this term in literature. It is very common and helpful to provide such examples on WP pages. But at least some parts of this possibly were not explicitly described in RS as "wars of annihilation". That indeed would be WP:OR. My very best wishes (talk) 16:01, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Stalin speech

Did Stalin really make his "if they want a war of extermination..." speech in German as is suggested by the long German quote? The speech appears to be notable (Beevor refers to it in his Stalingrad (using Alexander Werth's Russia At War, 1941-1945 as a source), but surely Russian is more credible?Nigel Ish (talk) 19:58, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

According to this - he made the speech at a meeting of the Moscow Soviet of Working Peoples Deputies to celebrate the 24th anniversary of the October Revolution - so a speech to Russians - in Russian, surely.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, he certainly made this speech, and the translation on the page appear to be exact. Here is original in Russian [1], it also appears in many books (also in Russian). Here is link to English translation of the book currently cited on this page [2]. My very best wishes (talk) 01:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think my very best wishes Nigel Ish K.e.coffman Buidhe Bri we should be using a book that the English version is published by a holocaust denier publisher. Theses & Dissertations Press also has published titles such as The hoax of the twentieth century and Auschwitz-Lies. Legends, Lies, and Prejudices on the Holocaust https://openlibrary.org/publishers/Theses_&_Dissertations_Press. I will open a RFC to see if other agree Wikipedia editors agree with me and we remove it.Thelostone41 (talk) 02:03, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

No one suggested to use specifically this book. It just was on the page. We can use other books. What other books which claim this to be a war of annihilation by Stalin would you suggest? I have no idea though what your comment and your link above suppose to mean. What dissertation? I do not think that a PhD thesis would be good source here. What hoax? What denier? What lies? My very best wishes (talk) 02:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

well most reliable sources on this subject don't say that Stalin was trying to do the same that Hitler was trying to do. The English version of the book is published by (Theses & Dissertations Press) they have put titles out such as The hoax of the twentieth century and Auschwitz-Lies. Legends, Lies, and Prejudices on the Holocaust.Thelostone41 (talk) 02:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, as was worded on the page by someone long time ago, Stalin certainly was NOT trying to do the same thing that Hitler was trying to do. Where did you get such idea? According to quotation on the page, he suggested "to destroy all invading Germans" (sure, that was right course of action, do not you agree?), and that is exact citation of Stalin from Russian. It was taken from the book, but it does not matter as far as this is correct quotation. My very best wishes (talk) 02:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

It is a correct quotation but the book is pushing fringe views, and the English version is published by (Theses & Dissertations Press) that is why I opened the RFC.Thelostone41 (talk) 03:22, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

You said the author of the book was a Holocaust denier. At one point, I checked sources about this author, but did not find any RS explicitly claiming him to be a "Holocaust denier" (blogs do not count). Am I missing some sources? Or this is just your personal opinion? My very best wishes (talk) 03:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

If someone's book is put out by a publishing company that puts out Holocaust denier books, it seems like they support that if they are using that company to put out their book.Thelostone41 (talk) 03:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Unlike Russian publisher of the book (AST (publisher)), that one does not look big and solid. But it does not automatically make everyone whose book was published there a Holocaust denier. Neither it makes a book published on 3 languages an unreliable source. My very best wishes (talk) 14:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

According to translations of Stalin's speeches on the Internet, Stalin used the verb "annihilate"; I don't know what the original word used in Russian was, or if Stalin quoted it in German. It appears several times in speeches delivered in June and in Sept 1941, the year of the Nazi invasion. However, in these speeches Stalin was not talking about annihilating an entire populace of civilians in a race war as Hitler was, but rather about using his army to destroy the Nazi Wehrmacht and its attendant death squads "on Russian territory,"(his words) "if they do not surrender"(his words). This is a far cry from what the Nazis were intending, as they proclaimed many times both publicly and to their own soldiers, which was to wage a racial war of conquest with the aim of annihilating both Jews and all Slavic "untermenschen," including all Poles and Ukrainians, down to the last man, woman, and child, in their own dwellings, with no possibility of surrender and to replace them with German farmers and army veterans. Wikipedia's quoting of Stalin's use of this word, as if it was somehow the equivalent of how it was used by Hitler and his generals (who were fully on board with this plan), defies logic and is beside the point, unless to illustrate the Soviets full awareness of the invaders' intentions, if indeed it was used, say, in the original German. Mballen (talk) 05:05, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

RFC on Joachim Hoffmann book Stalin's Annihilation War

Should we be using a book that the English version is published by a holocaust denier publisher (Theses & Dissertations Press) they also have published titles such as (The hoax of the twentieth century) and (Auschwitz-Lies. Legends, Lies, and Prejudices on the Holocaust) https://openlibrary.org/publishers/Theses_&_Dissertations_Press.

The overall out come of this RFC see is I want to see if other people think. Should we excluded the source on the basis I mentioned, also should this particular source be used.Thelostone41 (talk) 13:38, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. Apparently, the book was originally published in German, and then translated to English and Russian [3]. I am familiar only with Russian publisher. This is AST (publisher), pretty much a big mainstream publishing company. This is definitely not a "a holocaust denier publisher". My very best wishes (talk) 03:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment it was originally published in German but for the English Version it was published by, (Theses & Dissertations Press) there are books that are fringe that are published by big mainstream publishing company such as 1421: The Year China Discovered America by Gavin Menzies.Thelostone41 (talk) 03:40, 24 July 2021 (UTC) The filer of this RfC request was a sock-puppet account (blocked now). My very best wishes (talk) 02:35, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

(invited by the bot) Your question is actually two questions:

1. The actual intended one which is: Should the source be excluded on that basis?
2. Should this particular source be used?

Unless you clarify, your results will be invalid. But my answer to #1 is that it should certainly not be excluded simply because the publisher also published other works containing fringe views.North8000 (talk) 12:55, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - just because a book is translated and republished by a publisher that also publishes dubious content does not necessarily mean that the original work (by a different publisher, potentially with different values) is also damned by association. Reliable sources will get republished by all sorts of dodgy publishers.Nigel Ish (talk) 16:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Brought here by the bot. I agree totally with Nigel Ish. In general, it's not unreasonable for us to look at the veracity of the publisher in addition to the qualifications of the author. The gatekeeping interaction of publisher-author is what keeps a book from being self-published so both warrant our attention. However, in this case, the publisher appeared to merely act as a translation service and printing house, with editorial control being exercised by the original German publisher. Chetsford (talk) 03:26, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Also agree with Nigel Ish- If you have an issue with a book that you think is dubious, put it the RS noticeboard and ask for an opinion on whether it is acceptable RS. Deathlibrarian (talk) 13:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

March 2022 edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "needs reliable sources". --K.e.coffman (talk) 07:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Modern example?

Would it be appropriate to add a section on the modern Russian invasion of Ukraine, or other wars of annihilation in general? The focus of this article is a bit unclear as the summary describes war of annihilation as a general type of war, but most of the content is specifically focused on the Nazi concept. 68.55.6.141 (talk) 00:04, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

• A better fitting modern example is found in the Palestine-Israel conflict. The apartheid of blockading Gazans within the Gaza Strip, combined with Israeli settlement of their old homes becomes a slow drip of land grab and replacement. 2605:A601:A629:3300:C419:4C:7397:E641 (talk) 05:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Non-native writer

The text of this article reads as if it was translated, rather poorly, from German or as if it were written by a non-native speaker of English. Some sentences are frankly baffling. Needs a rewrite. 85.247.188.188 (talk) 07:46, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

See up at the top of this page where it says it was translated from German? Anyone is welcome to improve any Wikipedia article, so have at it. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:27, 16 May 2024 (UTC)