Talk:West Azerbaijan province/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Transliteration?

I wonder if someone might add a transliteration of the Persian name for the province? I recognize the first word as "Azerbaijan," but what is the second? It looks like "Furby," which I take it is Farsi for West? Why is this place Azerbaijan Furby, while the other Azerbaijan province, the name of which is transliterated, is given as "Azerbaijan-e Sarqi?" Is the -e a short vowel that is unwritten? --Jpbrenna 02:53, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, probably should be transliterated Firby or Firbi, to avoid confusion with the Furby. (I awlays thought it was spelled "Furbie," but I guess not). --Jpbrenna 03:29, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oops, that was Gharbi, from the Arabic word for "west." I confused فا with غ --Jpbrenna 07:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Ethnicity

The majority of west azarbaijan are Kurds. The historical capital of the Mahabad Repuplik is in this province. The name of this province is only a political name. Here, you can see a map of Prof.Mehrdad Izady and another Iranian news portal calls these cities Kurdish cities.

Sources: Prof. M. Izady, Colombia University, New York, USA. http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/geography/maps/map-02.html

Iran-Newspaper http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3183

"The protests in the Kurdish areas came after the killing of a Kurdish activist by Iranian security forces in the city of Mahabad on July 9. Since then, anti-regime demonstrations have erupted in the mainly Kurdish towns of Sanandaj, Mahabad, Sardasht, Piranshahr, Oshnavieh, Divandareh, Baneh, Sinne, Bokan and Saqiz."

http://www.urmiye.org

Mahabad at Encyclopædia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9050086

West Azarbaijan is not just Mahabad. Urmia alone has 4 times the population of Mahabad. And it is predominantly Azeri.

Also, my maps seem a bit different from yours. On my maps, not all of W. Azarbaijan is covered by Kurdish areas. It seems more like a 50/50 split.[1][2]

You cant ignore the Azaris. If you do, you will only be intensifying ethnic wars (and losing more ground), because Iran belongs to EVERYONE. Not just Turks or Kurds or whoever.

It is my observation that those who have been pressing for ethnic independence in Kordestan, or Azarbaijan, or Ahvaz, have no ties to Iran (and are foreigners).

Havent you heard? --> همه جای ایران سرای من است

--Zereshk 22:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes every one knows that calling for your rights and divulging the truth in countries

like Iran and former Iraq is often related to foreingners as USA, Europe and Israel (as iranian goverment call them The Big Satans!). I do agree with your new opinion that "The majority of west azarbaijan is split between Kurds and Azeris."

In fact a large number of Urmia populations are kurds who can speak "azeri turkish" but they are not azeri turks! as I do! and Urmia is not only a city and we should not ignore rural regions who mostly are kurds.

Mahabad, Bukan, Piranshahr (in kurdidh :xanê), Sardasht, Oshnovie (in kurdish Shno), are kurdish-inhabited cities.

Shahindej, Naqade, Salmas, Takab, Urmia, have got significant kurdish population (beetwin 40%-70%).

In adition, in other cities of the provnce you can find kurdish people but they are in minority. beetwin (10%-30%).

Thank you for your last editing. I almost agree with it.

November 27th demographic edits

There were several edits made today that I've tried to pare down by removing wording that I felt was overly POV, and information that was either unsupported by references, or didn't seem to be at place in an article that should be about the province in general (with city-specific information ideally going to the related articles for each city). The diff can be seen here - hopefully someone who knows more about the area can improve on my changes. Cheers. --PeruvianLlama^(spit) 00:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

There has been a Turkish/Kurdish war going on here. Nobody has given any references for what they post. And everyone keeps reverting the other. So I gave up. Let them fight forever.

However, I must say that when visiting Urmia, the population was predominantly Azeri without question. It wasnt even split. It was almost entirely Azeri. (Im referring to the current edit claiming otherwise).

That's all from me for this page.--Zereshk 04:47, 6 December 2005

(UTC)

I don't know from where you get that kind of 70 %-30 % figures, but it is generally known that West Azerbaijan is a majority Turkish province with Kurdish populated areas. I have not removed any of the external links. All of those links given in demographics section are loosly drawn maps and two are from Kurdish sites. There are plenty of websites belonging todifferent ethnic groups claiming as much land as they can, or actually want. Furthermore, since when maps are used to calculate demographic data? None of the maps say, that kind of precise 70 %-30% figures and they don't even show who is the majority. Even if one accepts the accuracy of those maps showing which ethnicity lives where, it has no clue to the actual number of ethnicities. Using that kind of maps one can say that Inuits make 1/3 of the population in Canada, for example. It is known that Azerbaijani Turks make the majority of West Azerbaijan province in Iran. How are the estimated percanteges, I don't know right now, when I do, I will make necessary edits. Thanks. --TimBits 02:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The population of the kurds as well as their lands in Iran has always been ignored or playded down by central regimes because of their ethnicity and religion and political reasons. and here in this province, (West Azerbaijan) while the kurds are majority of the inhabitants of the area, maybe the name of the province lead some ppl to mistake about the demograpy of the province. Diyako 11:30, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

All non-Persian ethnicities were played down for that matter, and especially the Turks because, unlike Kurds they have the potential of rivaling Persians for dominance. And until you come up with something more specific, the name itself can be a reason to consider Western Azerbaijan a majority Turkish province. Thanks. --TimBits 11:42, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

You are not right. this is the kurds who have the potnecial to do something and there are plenty of sources which you can read for exemple here: the Kurds...

Remember the Kurds are sunni while turks and the central regime are shiite (and the govermnt is religious). and kurds have fought against central regime and have got many armed organisation while turks lead the government! Do NOT forget Ali Khamenei, khalkhali, ayatollah Hasani... and thousands... (and there is no kurdish individual among them)Diyako 12:26, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Diyako,

That is exactly the reason why Kurds do not face the same difficulties as Turks in Iran. As you have given the examples, it is clear that Turks are reprsented in high posts and therefore are potentially more able to rival for leadership of the country. On the other hand, whatever the Kurds do, it will have a marginal importance in any case. But, that is not the issue here with this article. The issue is who comprises the majority in Western Azerbaijan province of Iran. I have to say that I have been dissapointed in you as a fellow Wikipedian. You have been overzealous with this issue and want to have it your way, no matter what. Let's be reasonable, ok? You have called me a racist, and said that I do not accept the existence of Kurds. I wonder if you really read the article before jumping to a revert. The version I had posted before you changed, said that Kurds and Turks together comprise the majority. Despite that I do not agree with that, I have decided that before one comes up with a more detailed and reliable information this version can stay. But you seem to think that anyone who does not accept the clear majority of Kurds is denying their existence. I don't know what kind of inferiority complex it is, but in any case it is far from being reasonable. I am asking this question again: other than the loosely drawn and questionable maps, what is the basis of the information that Kurds are the majority in Western Azerbaijan? Other than that, what is the method to guess actual population data from the maps? Do you suppose that all areas of a certain place have the same population density per sq. km? That is simply nonsence. For your information, I will add other maps from the same sources that you gave. If you are interested in truth, you will not remove those. Thanks. --TimBits 11:28, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

And remember CIA and its sources are Not pro-kurdish. Thank you Diyako 12:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Except for some uninformed individuals, the Iranian Kurds have never had a desire to secede from Iran. The latter is the voice of non-Iranian Kurds mostly living in the west.

The reason has to do with the schism between Iranian and Ottoman Kurdestan at the time of Shah Ismail (War of Chaldoran) four centuries ago, the result being that Iranian Kurdestan became a semi-independent state ruled by Ardalans. Hence the Iranian Kurds were as free as one could be, and had no interest to join the other parts of Kurdestan. They are as separate as Austria and Germany. Turkish Kurds and Iranian Kurds share a language and culture, just like many Spanish-speaking Latin American countries, or the Arab states . So they watch the same movies without sub-title, but that is where the commonalty ends. The Kurds of Iran have a lot of stake in Iran and they would never give Iran up.

Keep dreaming if you think otherwise. You will only be fooling yourself. The Kurds have been part of the Iranian identity for thousands of years. You cant erase that so easily.

Things like civil rights have nothing to do with separation or Greater Kurdestan or Greater Azerbaijan, Greater Armenia, Greater Assyria, etc. These are rights that all Iranian minorities demand. It is a simple matter of recognition of cultural and political needs of different nationalities and ethnic groups of Iran.--Zereshk 18:10, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

This is your opinion that kurds will remain with iranian faschistic regimes or not........." Except for some uninformed individuals, the Iranian Kurds have never had a desire to secede from Iran. The latter is the voice of non-Iranian Kurds mostly living in the west......"!!!! I do not talk about Kurdish question on this discussion page! I just mentioned existence of a hard opression and discrimination on the kurds in Iran and that there are many reasons to be ignored by central regime of Iran. Yes things like civil and cultural rights has nothing to do with separation but central regme of iran does not think so! and their only reply to any rights demanded by the kurds is killing kurds! please do not mix up different questions about kurds.Diyako 19:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

And so is your view pure opinion. What makes you think the Kurds deserve any better reason for secession than the Azeris, Arabs, Gilakis, and other 75 ethnic minorities of Iran? All have their rights usurped. All. Not just the Kurds. Most of the prisoners in evin are not even Kurds. They are in fact Persian.

We will see if your wish of secession will ever come true. You cannot rob the Kurds of their historically unquestionable Iranian identity, no matter how hard you try.--Zereshk 20:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

1. I just want to say that Kurds are one of the first victims of discrimination in Iran. as well as arabs and Balouchs. I am very hapy that you accept discrimination on Kurds and Arabas.
2. ...I do not rob it and it does NOT matter that their fathers in 3000 thousand years ago what have done or not.
3. You are trying to call me separatist; as Iranian government does, facing kurds demanding their rights; In fact we kurds have been known for separation by ppl like you who ever had wished to ignore and fool us by calling us as the ppl who have been historically iranian or such poor opinins...!
4. If you are inrterested to talk about kurdish question I suggest you to visit paltak rooms where there are many kurds discussing it!! (and not wasting my time!) Thank you.Diyako 20:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Edit war

POV tag instated

The page has turned into a springboard for "Kurdish Republic" POV edits.

1. Diyako keeps putting a map of Iran that supports his POV (that all of the province is populated by Kurds). He ignores three other maps that show it to be split or nearly split, as it really is. [3][4][5]
2. Diyako keeps refering to Kurdish websites as standard references.

These problems need to be settled. The tag will stay up until I am satisfied.--Zereshk 04:52, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I have not ignored those maps becauase they really DO show the Greater Kurdish lands (The Greater Kurdistan) which ever have been ignored by ppl like you but the only credible map which show West Azerbaijan borders and ethnic distribution is the one which I have put on the article if you want and I like and agree with showing other maps too.

Diyako refers to sources provided by CIA, Western universities and other credible ones which are neutral (not pro-iranian and not pro- kurdish.). Definitedly there are other sources which claim this province is entilrely kurdish but I have not put them on the article!)

Thank YouDiyako Talk + 08:58, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

This is wrong I have tried to contact him but his email is not functioning. We are writting a better encylopedia than others not just copying other ones mistakes. Diyako Talk + 13:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi,

Statistics given by KHRP are not credible for exemple it claims that:

"East and West Azerbaijan have an area of 38,850 sq km (15,000 sq mi) and a population of 1,971,677 (1986); its capital is Orumiyeh. The population is Azeri, with a Kurdish minority." (!!)

While only West Azerbaijan province of Iran has an area more than 39,000 sq km by atself!!

The source cited by you cliams that the population of this province is 1,971,677 (20 years ago!!) it is not also correct so I do not believe such a source.

Do not forget the kurdish population is terriblly growing [6] in addition to this they mainly imigrate to cities such as Urmia because there is a better walfare in comparison to their economically poor reagion.

Thank You Diyako Talk + 15:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Edit War

Strongly suggest a cooling off period here - this keeps turning up on my RC patrol, and the edit war is definitely not constructive. I'm requesting page protection. CarbonCopy 18:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

This TimBits thinks can do something with ~some expired and incredible sources. Diyako Talk + 18:53, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to ask both of you - Diyako and TimBits - to read the WP:NPOV and dispute resolution process and try to find a way to resolve your disagreements without editing back and forth. It is possible to present alternative viewpoints fairly within the same article. You may want to also take note of the Three Revert Rule because I think you both could end up subject to the provisions if the edit war continues. CarbonCopy 19:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Diyako, Let's be reasonable. I have given sources. You have not provided even an expired and incredible(?) source. You think it is the way to do things here? The document written by H.C. Lawrence Smith and the site Encyclopedia of Orient are current. Just because you don't like it, does not mean that it is wrong. The other documents by a Kurdish group allagedly has old figures. But even if it is like that, it does not change anything. If the population increases, then both Turks and Kurds increase. The ratio would still be the same, more or less, because both groups have similar rates. You say: Do not forget the kurdish population is terriblly growing. I don't know what kind of an argument that is and I leave it to you. Accept the reason. You can not take it forever. I will stop editing for now, only to calm things dawn. I will, push this until a truly neutral and correct article emerges. And don't get me wrong, this all about the article. I don't know you, therefore have nothing against your personality. You on the other hand have called me names. It's ok. I understand. No hard feelings. --TimBits 19:24, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

There are many sources regarding kurds are not minority as you at first wanted to put it in the article. In governmental (official) sources, in gehography book of the West Azerbaijan which is special to students of the province, there is no referring that kurds are minority in this province despite of many pressures which the Kurds are facing by the government. There is significant cultural differences between the kurds and the turks in this province, this is what I meant terribilly growing population (regarding number of family members in the kurdish families and its significant effect on the population of the province).

I do not ignore your sources, I think every credible sources provided by us (and other users) must be added.

Thank YouDiyako Talk + 19:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Diyako,

Stop messing with the page!

Why do you keep inserting a map that is not related, when there is already one there?

I have notified administrators to monitor this page.--Zereshk 22:16, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

1. The map which you are trying to remove is the first one which has been on the article.
2. The map which you are trying to remove is a credible map about Iran (and NOT caucasus) and shows the west azerbaijan provinces border.Diyako Talk + 22:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I've protected the article for the time being. (3RR investigations may occur soon.) If it is felt that the edit war has sufficiently cooled down, unprotection can be requested. --Wikiacc (talk) 22:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Responding to request for comment

Did a little neutral proofreading of the article text. If leading sources actually do conflict about the majority ethnic group of the province, then I suggest making a separate article section to discuss the difference in NPOV terms: state each position clearly with citations and offer explanations of the significance and possible reasons for the conflict. Best wishes. Durova 22:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The name of the third map has changed!!!!!!!!!!

It is about caucasus and not west azerbaijan provine!!!!! you have changed it!!!! What does it meen??!! Diyako Talk + 22:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The map is supposed to be about Azarbaijan. Not about "Greater Kurdistan" or "Greater Azarbaijan" or Ethnic minorities in Iran. Hence I cropped the old map so that the new map only shows what is relevant to the article: West Azarbaijan province.--Zereshk 22:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

It is about caucasus not Iran it is and does not the west azerbaijan borders.

Remember you changed it name!!! Diyako Talk + 22:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The page's name is not The caucasus. It is Western Azarbaijan. And the map should be about that. Not anything else.--Zereshk 23:12, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The map cited by you (although I do not say must be removed) is about caucasus region and the article is not about caucasus region is about an Iranian province that lies soutern of Caucasus and the provinces border is not shown the there... While the other one (which is credible but you do not like it) shows West Azerbaijan province borders clearly. West Azerbaijan province borders clearly,

1. Incorrect. The map I put on the page and which you keep erasing is not about the Caucasus. It only shows Azarbaijan (both west and east). The one youre talking about is here. Your map shows all of Iran, which is unrelated.
2. Citing Kurdish sources as fact everywhere in the article while ignoring other sources is POV. This article is not about Kurdistan. It is about West Azarbaijan.
3. The majority of Urmia are not Kurds. This is a fallacy. Ive been there.
4. The Kurdistan Democratic Party of Iran does not support secession from Iran (as it is said on the KDP link). So stop vandalizing the page with your propaganda, and stop down playing the Azari minority of the province.--Zereshk 23:49, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

WHO YOU THINK OTHER PEOPLE ARE??

MR/MRS ZERESHK:

1. I HAVE NOT REMOVED YOUR MAP. YOU KEEP REMOVING MINE. UNDERRSTAND ???
2. THE MAP CITED BY ME SHOWS THE BORDERS OF WEST AZERBAIJAN OF IRAN UNDERSTAND???? AND IS QUITE RELATED. IT IS ABOUT IRAN AND THERE ETHNITICAL GROUPS AND PROVINCES. AND YOUR MAP IS ABOUT AZERI TURKS IN CAUCAUSUS NOT WESTERN AZERBAIJAN PROVINCE OF IRAN, YES PROVINCE.
3. I HAVE BEEN IN URMIA SO MANY TIMES I HAVE FAMILY AND CLOSE FRIENDS THERE. MORE THAN THAUSAND TIMES I HAVE BEEN IN URMIA AND THE MOST POPULATION IS KURDISH, KURDISH. UNDERSTAND????
4. THE KURDISH DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF IRAN IS ANOTHER MATTER AND I AM GOING TO DISCUSS IT LATER, AFTER YOU UNDERSTANF THE MATTER AND WHAT IS THE TRUTH.~

Diyako Talk + 00:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Please be civil. Thanks, --Wikiacc (talk) 01:49, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I think now you can understand what is the matter Diyako Talk + 23:24, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank the administators to protect the page. Diyako Talk + 22:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Mr Diyako

Your sources such as this one are not neutral. in this site ,claimed to be site of urmia city, u can see the contents of site in Kurdish, Persian , Assyrian and even Finish but NOT in Azeri!!! are azeri people in urmia less than assyrians?!!!

we know kurds of urmia are mostly from southern cities of west azerbaijan. provincial status of iran is not based on ethnic groups. and kurdestan is not an exception. Bijar was a turkish city and ghorve too. the name Saggez is a turkish name meaning "eight".

I have kurd friends (but they r not racist as u). one of them is from Ghorva , he says that his grandpa has migrated from Sanandej to Ghorva 60 years ago, when kurds in ghorva are less than 1000 people. kurds are migrant people, and now a days they are moving from kurish cities to turk populated cities. but you can't claim that these migrants are major in these cities.

Mahabad , Bukan, Piranshahr, Oshno and Sardasht Are Kurd cities, but kurd are minor in other cities. I'm an azeri, with my own tendencies, but I never say that tehran is a turk city(tehran has about 50-60% ethnic turks) because tehran is originally a persian city.

I wish you real human rights, but you can't ignore rights of other ppl.

--Dr.Hamed 21:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

• Hi

1. Think about what your words mean then write them! as in here to Zereshk: "...And about west azerbaijan. Kurds have a large population in this area, but kurd are not the major. only 20-30% of W.Az are kurds. although their polulation is growing and methastatic :) urmia has less than 5% kurds in 1340 but now they are about 25%; most of them are orginally from southern cities as well as kurdestan province. diyako is a vandalist and ultra racist person. he has some wonderful ideas such as 30% kurd population of iran..."
2. I have NOT cited [7] as a source but as a link in the section of External links.
3. yes as you see there is no materials in azeri turkish in that website but it can NOT be a reason that they are racists or...
4. Noone cliams Azeri people are less than assyrians.
5. Kurds of urmia mostly are from the Urmia and western and northen partts of Urmia and then from southern cities.
6. I am NOT a racist. (maybe in future you will know me better).
7. We do NOT discus about who are migrant or not, as well as we do NOT discuss that whose region or whose province it is (I think the owners of a city are all of its inhabitants not a specific ethnic or religious group.
8. we discuss the population.
9. I never claimed and never cliam "...Kurds compromise 30% of population of Iran..." (and nor the turks)
10. I never wish other peoples rights be ignored because I have been one of the first victims of discrimination.
11. Saqez (Sakiz) does NOT mean EIGHT in Turkish. it means chewing - gum (in fact herbaceous gum).

I think as a Kurdish my Turkish knowlegde is better than yours!))::

• Thank You. Diyako Talk + 22:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

You think your turkish is better than me!!! ok, ok... then I should explain some thing about kurdish accent, if a kurd wants to pronaunce the word Saggiz, he says saggez, and saggiz means EIGHT.

I didn't ignore your rights too, I have kurd friends and I respect their cultural and political rights, but you shouldn't be so extermist.

Ignoring Turk population of W.Az. doesn't help you.

In your last edit on Urmia you give this data: turks 50%, kurds 50% and 40% christian. we know that most of christians of urmia are armenians not turks nor kurds....then urmia is 140% !!!!!!

Migrants have rights as well as original settelers, but they can't change the history. in most of your articles , you claimed that W.Az cities are originally kurdish!!!

changing the facts ....Does it work? I don't think so.

what happens if kurds establish their own country? 1-Economy of kurdistan will be worse. United Iran has oil and more, but kuristan is a province with no significant mines and oil production or factories or Farmlands.

But why kurdistan economy is poor? the central government does not like to develop factories in kurdistan because of several crisis and wars happened in this area.

Please note that: All iran ppl are in poor condition. ok, there is significant difference between Isfahan and sanandaj, but kurds are not innocent in this progress. Most of them have strong desire to establish their own state, then kurdistan is an unstable area for economy.

Please send your answers to my own talk page, if you want to discuss more.

--Dr.Hamed 22:50, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer.

1. Is it srange that my turkish be better than yours?!
2. saqez; the word Saqez here means GUM . And I should explain some thing about saqez. if you study a litle about kurdish language and its pronounciation you will see that it has the ability to pronounce many other languages for exemple Kurdish language, So I mean kurdish speakng people can pronounce the Turkish words saqiz (gum) and sekiz (eight) with no problem (maybe UNLIKE persian speakings) so the way they pronounce it as saqiz has a logic meaning beacause of many trees who produce gum in that region (around city of Saqiz).
3. There are (and have been) enough sources to ptrove Kurds have been in thousand years in this province (area). But in fact this is your claim that is strange!
4. About Kurdish Question I do not think so because kurds do NOT love war, blood and fighting they have been forced to defend themselves because of unjust condition and situation in which they are. In fact this is the faschist goverments and regimes of the Middle East who are not innocent not this oppressed ethnic group (as well as other ones).
5. I see all of iranians are in poor comditions.
6. About political topics I do not like to discuss in Wikipedia.

Thank You Diyako Talk + 23:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

• Sekkiz is a Turkey Turkish word but in azeri we say Saggiz.
• I think both kurds and turks as well as other minorities in iran should prove their rights, but they shouldn't fight against each other. W.Az has a significant kurd minority, and they must have their cultural rights. Ignoring other ppl doesnot help u.
• Every realist kurd knows that kurd population in most central and northern cities of W.Az is less than turks. anyway turks and kurds live together in these cities and discussing about which ethnic group is major, doesnt improve their condition.

--Dr.Hamed 23:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

1. Sekiz (and not sekkiz) yes it is a turkish word and in azeri it is saggez BUT the name of the city is Saqez (from the turkish word sakiz or in some pronociation Saqiz) which means GUM. If the name was saggez (the number 8) so people could pronouce (gg). Also we should remember many people think the name is derived from the name sakkais the name of an ancient people who once lived there!!
2. Ignoring other people helps noone.
3. In west Azerbaijan province, not only in towns, we should NOT ignore Townships and RURAL as well as remote areas which their population is mostly Kurdish!
4. It does not change standards of living for the kurds (nor the Turks) in this province. It has no political benefits, not cultural, not ... anything. But we have got a true and accurate statistics of one province of one country in this world!! only this! nothing else.

Thank You Diyako Talk + 00:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

As long as this anti-Azari attitude of Diayko in suppressing the article exists, the page should remain locked. Some one who believes that 70% of the province are Kurds has some serious bias issues. --Zereshk 01:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

As long as this anti-Kurdish attitude of Zereshk in suppressing the article exists, the page should remain locked. Some one who believes that 70% of the province are Turks has some serious bias issues!!!

Diyako Talk + 02:29, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Please provide a reference where I said that "Azeris had a 70% majority".--Zereshk 02:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Here in this version

Diyako Talk + 02:40, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

For the record

I'd like to draw attention to Diyako's false claims (i.e. lies):

The version he just reported above (02:40, 12 December 2005) was not edited by me: [8]. It was edited by Dr Hamed:[9]

However Diyako did write that 70% of the province were Kurds here, which is an incredibly POV statement, with no sources.--Zereshk 03:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• You could change it. So you think the Turks are less than this figure? good.
• I say the Kurds are about 70% (and may more) again and again. One day you bilieve me.

Thank you Diyako Talk + 03:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not care about what you "say". This is an encyclopedia. Not a forum.--Zereshk 03:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

In addition, your 70% estimate is uncited and original research, both of which are strongly discouraged in Wikipedia (prohibited in most cases). --Wikiacc (talk) 20:09, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

For Exemple here we can estimate. Kurds are Not a significant minority, more than this. Thank You Diyako Talk + 20:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC) Diyako Talk + 21:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Diyako

Thanks Diyako for your referrence named For Exemple here we can estimate.

you can see that kurdish cities growing faster at the rate of %6.For example Bukan in 1990 has population 83.000 in 2005 225.000,this is very good.It means that kurds prefer their cities in stead of others' cities.From here I hope you can easily realize except southern part of Western Azerbaijan,this province is predominantly turkish.Including Urmia.I make a small calculation for your interpretation:

for 2005: Kurdish cities having total population:560.000 Azeri cities having total population:1.270.000 so here for cities total population:1.830.000 so from here you can make simple ratio and 30 percent kurds and 70 percent Turks in western azerbaijan.But you can argue that rural areas are predominantly kurds please look at this map. http://www.geocities.com/azarbaijanim/south-azerbaijan.gif And this ratio is valid for countryside population.Kurdish villages are smaller than Turkish counterparts and azeris have more towns with respect to kurds.Also many azeris have moved Tehran.This is why Turkish cities grow slower than kurdish cities. when kurds stay their lands,azeris move into Iran interiors.Thus ratio of kurds is increasing.However I argue that %75 of western azerbaijan population is Turkish.Above calculations made on your referrence and I behaved a bit pro_kurdist.So accept this fact Urmia is predominantly Turkish because kurds stay in their lands,please look at your referrence.CIA put the number of kurds around 5 million in Iran,so you are not as many as you think or you hope.Turks are outnumbered with respect to kurds in Iran.

According to a recent research accomplished by Vezarate Keshvar, Piranshahr i the biggest city in the province even bigger than Urima, Piranshahr itself was a part of Urmia when it gained township status.