Talk:Yoga and Buddhism

Clean up

The article currently is just a repetition of Yoga#Yoga and Buddhism, cites only one book to present one point of view, does not discuss the debates about differences between different systems of yoga, and between yoga and other traditions. --Knverma 11:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The title suggests that this is some comparative study of two distinct traditions. Instead, some minor points are being used to somehow prove that Yoga had some influence on Buddhism. For example, that both Yoga and Buddhism talk about moral precepts, that in the west they teach Yoga together with Zen, etc. This looks like a deliberate attempt at inserting some POV. No clear distinction is being made between "Buddhist Yoga" and "Hindu Yoga". Clearly one is not going to write an article to say that "the influence of Buddhist Yoga pervades the whole of Buddhism".

I will mark the article for deletion, unless someone is able to improve it. --Knverma 11:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Good points, Knverma. I had much the same reaction to this article.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 16:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the article is quite misleading as Yoga strictly speaking only means 'practice', the text reads though as if Yoga only means the practice that Patanjali developed/described in India. I'd suggest to mark it for deletion (again)! rudy 15:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This is part of a slew of articles trying to minimize the importance of the specifically Buddhist approach to meditation and meditative practices. We should delete and merge into Buddhism and Hinduism. I suspect that there may be more misrepresentations of the one source they're using as well. Arrow740 07:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I am redirecting the article to Buddhism and Hinduism. Other suggestions are welcome. --Knverma 07:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Great idea!rudy 23:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Tagging

The following discussion is copied from my talk page and continued here. --Knverma 22:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Your conduct is becoming increasingly disruptive. Do not attach incorrect tags in articles. _{Freedom skies| talk}  21:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The tags reflect concerns expressed by certain editors. Please discuss on talk page before removing them. Thanks. --Knverma 21:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The tags are incorrect and undermine the peer reviewed work (by factual accuracy). Reliable, mainstream literature must be used to back up assertions, not tag vandalism. _{Freedom skies| talk}  22:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

There are concerns other than sourcing. For benefit of all, please discuss on talk pages of articles instead of here. --Knverma 22:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

There are concerns other than sourcing highlights your disregard for statements based on peer reviewed work. You have been consistently engaging in tag warring and placing improper tags in various articles. I suggest you stop placing incorrect tags with persistence and Chinese bias. _{Freedom skies| talk}  22:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, asking for removal of sourced text is not going to be appropriate. I would also suggest not writing "cleanup" where excellent citations are provided and spell checks completed. That is considered vandalism. _{Freedom skies| talk}  22:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I meant that sourcing is just one of the concerns, see comments in previous section. --Knverma 22:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The comments are dated and are prior to the expansion and academic treatment. Also, most of your statements in the comments are incorrect. _{Freedom skies| talk}  22:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The comments are mine (Nat's comment is recent), and I still stand by my comments. If my statements are incorrect then you can point them out before removing tags. --Knverma 22:35, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

---

Let me restate my concerns.

The title suggests that this is some comparative study of two distinct traditions. Instead, some minor points are being used to somehow prove that Yoga had some influence on Buddhism. For example, that both Yoga and Buddhism talk about moral precepts, that in the west they teach Yoga together with Zen, etc. This looks like a deliberate attempt at inserting some POV. No clear distinction is being made between "Buddhist Yoga" and "Hindu Yoga". Clearly one is not going to write an article to say that "the influence of Buddhist Yoga pervades the whole of Buddhism".

Please give some brief explanations. A list of links is not very helpful to understand what you want to prove. --Knverma 22:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

---

The article currently is just a repetition of Yoga#Yoga and Buddhism

That is incorrect. Yoga#Yoga and Buddhism and Yoga and Buddhism are different in content, images, sources and language.

cites only one book to present one point of view

That is incorrect. The most reliable sources from the most reliable authors have been cited.

Instead, some minor points are being used to somehow prove that Yoga had some influence on Buddhism.

That is incorrect as per this.

I will mark the article for deletion, unless someone is able to improve it.

From this version to this one.

Now stop tag vandalism.

As long as multiple, reliable citations are provided in an article assertions of tagging due to This looks like a deliberate attempt at inserting some POV is considered vandalism, especially given the nature of the tags.
Buddhist and Hindu Yoga are forms of Yoga.

Read the content in the links before you revert again.

_{Freedom skies| talk}  23:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

If Hindu and Buddhist Yoga are forms of Yoga, that should be stated in the article, not just on talk page. The article should start with definition of the words "Yoga" and "Buddhism" before continuing with a comparison. This is especially true when it is not clear which form of Yoga is being talked about. --Knverma 23:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Both Dharmic religions have incorporated Yoga into their doctrine.

Citation used in the article

As a system of practice, Yoga has from the beginning been one of the most influential features of Hinduism. Yoga exerted a powerful attraction upon Hindus because of the wonders attributed to it and because it gives countenance to the performance of austerities, to which Hindus are so strongly inclined. The strong influence of Yoga can also be seen in Buddhism, which is notable for its austerities, spiritual exercises, and trance states. As knowledge of Yoga spread, it fascinated and won followers among Westerners. Among more recent students of Yoga are the British writers Major Francis Yeats-Brown (1886-1944), Aldous Huxley, and Christopher Isherwood; the Romanian-born writer on religion Mircea Eliade; and the British violinist Yehudi Menuhin. In recent years Yoga exercises have been recommended by some physical fitness experts as a means of cleansing the body of impurities, of reducing weight, of toning up the nerves and muscles, and, generally, of improving health and prolonging life. -- "Yoga," Microsoft® Encarta Online Encyclopedia 2007. 1997-2007 Microsoft Corporation.

Additional citations

yoga, general term for spiritual disciplines in Hinduism , Buddhism , and throughout S Asia that are directed toward attaining higher consciousness and liberation from ignorance, suffering, and rebirth. More specifically it is also the name of one of the six orthodox systems of Hindu philosophy . Both Vedic and Buddhist literature discuss the doctrines of wandering ascetics in ancient India who practiced various kinds of austerities and meditation. -- The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Columbia University Press

Samadhi,State of intense concentration or absorption of consciousness, the product of meditation. In Hinduism, it is achieved through Yoga, in which the consciousness is absorbed in the object of meditation. In Buddhism, samadhi is the result of mind-development as distinct from insight-development ( vipassana), and is attainable by non-Buddhists as well as Buddhists. In Zen Buddhism, samadhi allows the meditator to overcome dualistic subject-object awareness through unity with the object of meditation. -- Britannica Concise Encyclopedia.

nirvana , in Buddhism , Jainism , and Hinduism , a state of supreme liberation and bliss, contrasted to samsara or bondage in the repeating cycle of death and rebirth. The word in Sanskrit refers to the going out of a flame once its fuel has been consumed; it thus suggests both the end of suffering and the cessation of desires that perpetuate bondage. Epithets of nirvana in Buddhism include "the free," "the immortal," and "the unconditioned." Nirvana is attainable in life, and the death of one who has attained it is termed parinirvana, or complete nirvana. This has often been interpreted as annihilation, but in fact the Buddhist scriptures say that the state of the enlightened man beyond death cannot be described. Nirvana in the different Indian traditions is achieved by moral discipline and the practice of yoga leading to the extinction of all attachment and ignorance. -- The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Columbia University Press.

Samadhi: Hinduism & Buddhism a state of intense concentration achieved through meditation. In Hindu yoga this is regarded as the final stage, at which union with the divine is reached (before or at death). -- The Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English

_{Freedom skies| talk}  00:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Which Yoga

All the citations used in the article, do they use the same definition of Yoga? Do they talk about Hindu Yoga or certain elements of Yoga which are common in Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism? --Knverma 06:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

So, are you saying that you did not verify the works before you attached the tags ? Your knowledge about the subject is evident and furthermore your attaching of factual accuracy tags without verification or even reading the article is a breach of Wikipedia:Vandalism. _{Freedom skies| talk}  12:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

If you have more knowledge then I am asking for that to be reflected in the article. Wikipedia is not for experts, the responsibility lies on the editor to justify his edits. Whatever be your or my knowledge, the article currently doesn't clarify which kind of Yoga is being talked about where. The first line of an article is suposed to define the topic. In this case, the variant of Yoga being talked about should be clarified. --Knverma 12:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The article has ample clarification and the the variant of Yoga being talked about should be clarified line exposes your lack of understanding about the topic. Also, your involvement in disruptive revert tag warring and disputing introduction based on reliable sources highlights a POV of removing material no matter how well sourced while not verifying citations or even reading the article. _{Freedom skies| talk}  13:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Freedomskies, please be civil. The problematic thing about this article is that it is not clear what is meant by "yoga". Yogic practices are fundamental to Buddhism—that's true; however, the article quickly begins talking about Hinduism (for instance, mooting "deep structural similarities between the conceptions of meditative practices in the two traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism"). Since yoga is fundamental to Buddhism, where does Hinduism come in? If we are going to talk about the relationship between Buddhism and Hindu Yoga specifically, then we must be careful to screen out any references to native Buddhist yogic practices.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 15:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

There are many common features in Dharmic religions and Yoga is one of them. In many cases the nature and the terminology is similar. The word Hinduism appears once in the article and the lines read "Many scholars have noted that the concepts dhyana and samadhi demonstrate deep structural similarities between the conceptions of meditative practices in the two traditions of Hinduism and Buddhism." implying just that, two traditions with yogic meditative practices. _{Freedom skies| talk}  15:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)