- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by Yoninah (talk) 18:37, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
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Abraham Bishop
- ... that Abraham Bishop graduated from Yale University in 1788 at the age of 15? Source: [1]
Created by Watsherm (talk). Self-nominated at 05:43, 29 July 2019 (UTC).
Most obvious things first: The article history's a bit tricky to parse but it is DYK eligible—it was a user draft briefly taken in and out of mainspace on July 13–15 and then re-created July 28. I verified the hook from the source, which is reliable enough for the purpose (Yale alumni mag article by the chief archivist of the university library). There seem to have been copyvio issues in the past based on the history but Earwig doesn't detect anything in its current state. Policy requirements check out; a 15-year-old Yale graduate seems interesting enough. I cleaned up some grammar and style issues I found in the article.
- Before approving this, though, there are a few issues I'd like sorted out. Firstly, the article does not give a source for the important descriptions of Bishop as an "economic populist" and a "civic leader". Secondly—and connected to that—the hook ought to include a brief description of Bishop to help interest potential readers so he isn't just a graduation statistic (e.g. "that Connecticut civic leader Abraham Bishop..."). Finally, there's a minor referencing oddness in the article itself which might need to be sorted out: Why is Georgia Speculation Unveiled in the works list specifically sourced to page 39 of itself? The easiest way to cite a bibliography like this is probably just to list the books themselves in a citation format. I added external links myself to the two that weren't explicitly cited. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 01:01, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- Nizolan, thanks for your work on this article. I'm looking at the issues. That "civic leader"--well, as a general term that seems to be borne out by claims like "Bishop worked to improve and establish importance of education via efforts such as consolidating schools and introducing graded classrooms"--I could replace it with "educationist" but I hate the word. Anyway, I see now that all those terms, including "gentleman farmer", are verified in the Yale article, "A firebrand from the Class of 1778".
You may have guessed that Watsherm was a student and that class is over. He asked about his grades, but I doubt that he'll be coming back here, which is sad--he hasn't yet, so I'll do what I can. I don't know why that page is listed--I am going to guess it's some oddity.
Update: I know what happened. The student was using the ref tool to get a book citation, and it automatically inserted it as a footnote. Hey, at least their Reftools work--I've been doing these by hand for almost a decade. I also saw that these Babcocks, printers and publishers, maybe deserve an article. Nizolan, tell me what else you see--while I tweak the hook. Dr Aaij (talk) 21:11, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
- Nizolan, thanks for your work on this article. I'm looking at the issues. That "civic leader"--well, as a general term that seems to be borne out by claims like "Bishop worked to improve and establish importance of education via efforts such as consolidating schools and introducing graded classrooms"--I could replace it with "educationist" but I hate the word. Anyway, I see now that all those terms, including "gentleman farmer", are verified in the Yale article, "A firebrand from the Class of 1778".
- Before approving this, though, there are a few issues I'd like sorted out. Firstly, the article does not give a source for the important descriptions of Bishop as an "economic populist" and a "civic leader". Secondly—and connected to that—the hook ought to include a brief description of Bishop to help interest potential readers so he isn't just a graduation statistic (e.g. "that Connecticut civic leader Abraham Bishop..."). Finally, there's a minor referencing oddness in the article itself which might need to be sorted out: Why is Georgia Speculation Unveiled in the works list specifically sourced to page 39 of itself? The easiest way to cite a bibliography like this is probably just to list the books themselves in a citation format. I added external links myself to the two that weren't explicitly cited. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 01:01, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
- ALT1: ... that Federalist gentleman farmer Abraham Bishop
(1763–1844)graduated from Yale University in 1788 at the age of 15?
- @Dr Aaij: Thanks for picking this up—hopefully Watsherm wasn't scared off by my review! I missed "civic leader" on the article, thanks for pointing that out (and also for figuring out the reference issue). I'm digging through the sources more thoroughly at the moment and I'm a bit confused by the "Federalist" description. Bishop himself was very much a Republican and a Jeffersonite, and the article discusses his attacks on the Federalists, so I think the hook is inaccurate there. But the article is a bit confusing on the point.
- The article says that Bishop's family was Federalist, but I can't see that in the two sources it cites. "New Political Writings by Thomas Payne" only says that the state was Federalist, and doesn't mention the family. It also seems to be contradicted by Jefferson's appointment of Bishop's dad after the election—as written currently, this looks like a non sequitur: "
The Bishop family was Federalist ... making it impossible for Thomas Jefferson to capture that state's majority vote during his presidential election. After Jefferson won the Presidential election of 1800, he appointed Abraham Bishop's father, Samuel ... as a way of thanking Abraham for his efforts
" (he rewarded his father for opposing him??)
- The article says that Bishop's family was Federalist, but I can't see that in the two sources it cites. "New Political Writings by Thomas Payne" only says that the state was Federalist, and doesn't mention the family. It also seems to be contradicted by Jefferson's appointment of Bishop's dad after the election—as written currently, this looks like a non sequitur: "
- My last sticking point is still "economic populist" because it's only mentioned in a user comment beneath the Yale article. Based on the sources I think a more precise term like "radical Republican" or simply "radical" might be better. Finally, life dates aren't usually included in DYK hooks (compare the hooks in the archives) so I've gone ahead and struck them in the suggestion, the era is clear anyway because of the graduation date. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 21:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
- Hey Nizolan, you're right. Problem is, I don't know a thing about early US politics and I really don't want to learn--I'm looking at this 42-page article, "Abraham Bishop's Vocation; or, the Mediation of Jeffersonian Politics", and I don't want to plow through all that to a. figure out the politics; b. rewrite that sentence which, you are correct, is a non sequitur; c. rewrite the lead, which I find very ... awkward (he was "known" for his family's politics?). BTW I frequently put those dates in DYK hooks, but sure. So let's just leave this be; we both have put in more time than Whatsherm by now. If you really want to pursue this and get it on the front page since you put in a fair amount of work, I can come back to it, but I'm a bit pressed for time now, with the new semester starting... Thanks again, Dr Aaij (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
- My last sticking point is still "economic populist" because it's only mentioned in a user comment beneath the Yale article. Based on the sources I think a more precise term like "radical Republican" or simply "radical" might be better. Finally, life dates aren't usually included in DYK hooks (compare the hooks in the archives) so I've gone ahead and struck them in the suggestion, the era is clear anyway because of the graduation date. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 21:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
- Inviting Gwillhickers to take a look at this, as the subject matter (early American history) appears to be his specialty and he might be able to help out with the other issues. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:54, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
- Bishop did not graduate in 1788, like the two above hooks say. The source says, "After graduating from Yale at the young age of 15, he was admitted to the bar in 1785." (Emphasis added) I also corrected this error in the article. — Jefferson was a staunch Republican and strongly opposed Alexander Hamliton's Federalist and elitist ideas, so I'm wondering about the support mentioned in the lede, for openers. Bishop was a Republican yet the lede more than suggests he was a federalist because of his family. Lede is very short and needs to be clarified on that note. In any case, other than the year date error, the nominator's original hook is the most interesting, by far. Here's another hook based on this idea:
- ALT2 ... that Abraham Bishop graduated from Yale University at the age of 15, and in 1785 was admitted to the bar? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:00, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
- ALT2 sounds good, though I've added a comma to make it read better. Is this good to go Nizolan? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:34, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
As Nizolan hasn't been active for almost two weeks now, a new reviewer may be needed to sign this off. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:52, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
The issues identified above still need to be addressed. The lede still says he was known for his family's Federalism, and does not make clear that he was a Republican, although his family were Federalists. (If stating that he was an economic populist is meant to indicate that he was a Republican, that's not clear to me.) I also see no sources for the statement that he was a "gentleman farmer" - only the lede and the info box state that he was a farmer, and neither has a source. There is some information about that in the Yale Alumni Magazine source, but that part of his life has not been covered at all in this article.
- The section on Political views (why is this separate from Career??) still has the confusing and apparently contradictory sentences mentioned above:
- "The Bishop family was Federalist, and so was the state of Connecticut, making it impossible for Thomas Jefferson to capture that state's majority vote during his presidential election. After Jefferson won the Presidential election of 1800, he appointed Abraham Bishop's father, Samuel, as the lucrative post of Collector of the Port of New Haven, as a way of thanking Abraham for his efforts."
- The source is a bit clearer, stating
- "In the 1800 presidential election year, Connecticut Republicans had hopes of victory, and Bishop found a new career as a party politician. ....... In the event, the Federalists kept control in Connecticut, but Thomas Jefferson won the presidency. He rewarded Bishop’s support by appointing his father to the lucrative post of Collector of the Port of New Haven; upon Samuel’s death in 1803, Abraham succeeded him."
- "In the 1800 presidential election year, Connecticut Republicans had hopes of victory, and Bishop found a new career as a party politician. ....... In the event, the Federalists kept control in Connecticut, but Thomas Jefferson won the presidency. He rewarded Bishop’s support by appointing his father to the lucrative post of Collector of the Port of New Haven; upon Samuel’s death in 1803, Abraham succeeded him."
- So the article needs editing.
- The Family section has the sentence "They gave birth to Mary Ann Bishop, but later divorced in 1800." The first half seems very awkward to me (they gave birth?), and the date is not the same as in the only online source, which gives the date of divorce as 1797.
- The two facts in ALT2 are supported by a source, and are directly cited in the article now that I have added a citation after the sentence about his graduation. I don't find the info about when he was admitted to the bar particularly interesting, nor relevant to what he became notable for. I don't think graduating at the age of 15 was unusual at that time, either (this book [2] refers to a 12-year-old and a 15-year-old), though probably not many readers would be aware of that. There may be other interesting facts about his life - but I don't think the article is ready for DYK, unless/until someone is prepared to work on the issues identified about a month ago. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- Final ping to Nizolan, Dr Aaij, and Gwillhickers: if any of you would like to take on the task of addressing the issues noted in RebeccaGreen's review, then the nomination will remain open. If not, though, I agree with her conclusion, and if nothing happens in the next seven days, the nomination will be marked for closure. Thank you for your work thus far. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:38, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- I pointed out the wrong date of Bishop's graduation, some time ago, fixed it in the article, and that the lede gave the impression that Bishop was a federalist, which is more than implied in the lede with the reference to his family. I'm hoping there is enough interest among present reviewers to get the final issues straightened out. I'll check back in a day or so to see if anyone else has made efforts. Also, I don't think graduating from Yale Univ, at age 15, was anything common then, and I find that, and the fact that Bishop was admitted to the bar shortly thereafter very interesting. Hope we're not going to get into one of those fuzzy debates about what's interesting to the entire world out there. My advice would be to get any pressing issues (regarding facts, citations and sources) straightened out first, before inventing new issues. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
It has been past the seven days I offered above, and no edits have been done since. Per reviews by RebeccaGreen and others before her, the issues they found, and the failure to address said issues, the nomination is being marked for closure. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- The two facts in ALT2 are supported by a source, and are directly cited in the article now that I have added a citation after the sentence about his graduation. I don't find the info about when he was admitted to the bar particularly interesting, nor relevant to what he became notable for. I don't think graduating at the age of 15 was unusual at that time, either (this book [2] refers to a 12-year-old and a 15-year-old), though probably not many readers would be aware of that. There may be other interesting facts about his life - but I don't think the article is ready for DYK, unless/until someone is prepared to work on the issues identified about a month ago. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
