Template:Did you know nominations/Apikoğlu Brothers

The following is an archived discussion of Apikoğlu Brothers's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you know (talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.

The result was: promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:51, 9 March 2013 (UTC).

Apikoğlu Brothers

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Krikor Apikoğlu. Founder of the Apikoğlu Company.

... ~~that the company that produced the first meat products in Turkey was founded by an ethnic Armenian~~?

ALT1 ... ~~that Apikoğlu Brothers, the first company to produce meat products in Turkey, was founded by an ethnic Armenian~~?
ALT2.1 ~~... that Krikor Apikoğlu (pictured) founded Apikoğlu Brothers—the first company to mass produce meat products in Turkey?~~
Reviewed: Yad Eliezer

Created by Proudbolsahye (talk). Self nom at 21:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Apikoğlu Brothers is a new article, created January 31, 2013 and self nominated by Proudbolsahye on February 1, 2013. The article is long enough at 7381 bytes when first reviewed. The article prose strays from encyclopedic neutrality with two examples of good faith wikipuffery. First, in the lead the company is called "a famed food processing company" and a second instance when it is stated that sales are attributed "Due to its high standard quality". Neither of these facts are supportable by neutral analysis. Sources are cited inline and are taken on good faith as they are foreign language publications. To some extent the citations are excessive, detracting from readability. It is taken on faith that none of the sources have been plagiarized and that copyrights have been respected. There are no BLP concerns apparent within the article prose. The hook is formatted correctly and is less than 200 characters. The included hook obfuscates the subject of the nomination and should be reworked into an alternate. I suggest something akin to:

ALT1 ... ~~that Apikoğlu Brothers, the first company to produce meat products in Turkey, was founded by an ethnic Armenian~~?

The hook fact is interesting, and the hook fact is cited in the article with inline citations supporting the credible claims. The nominator has not satisfied QPQ and has nominated more than five DYK's. The fair use rationale for File:Apikoglu.jpg is not compelling. To simply state an intention to include it in an info box is not a sufficient justification for inclusion. I am doubtful that significant claims of fair use can be made. When corrections are made to these regards, the nomination will be able to go forward.—My76Strat (talk) 17:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

The QPQ has been added. I also like ALT1 very much. Thank you for raising these concerns. Im fine with the removal of picture also. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for that prompt response. I have copy-edited the article regarding the areas discussed above and the included hook has been stricken in favor of ALT1. QPQ is verified against the included review. A single question remains. Where the article states: "Apikoğlu received the Altın Marka award in two consecutive years." a ^[when?] tag has been added asking to specify which two years are being referenced. I was unable to source an answer to that query. Can you append this additional information?—My76Strat (talk) 03:00, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

With all issued addressed and corrected, this nomination is compliant with all aspects of the reviewing criteria. I am satisfied that it should be promoted to a queue, for subsequent appearance on Wikipedia's Main Page. I thank Proudbolsahye for the prompt and cooperative manner used to address these improvable areas, and for nominating this worthy submission.—My76Strat (talk) 04:34, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

The article needs copyediting. Also, I'm uncertain about the hook claim. Meat has been produced in Turkey for centuries. This company was founded in 1910, I don't see how this could be true.--Carabinieri (talk) 17:52, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

At urging, I have reviewed the sources further. Using Google translate I have found the following statements within the included sources; "Apikoğlu In 1910, Turkey's first established as a manufacturer of meat products.", "Position of the first meat products manufacturer company in Turkey Kayseri After serving 10 years in 1920, the production moved to Istanbul.", this is an actual section heading from an independent source who was being very critical of the company; "Apikoğlu Turkey's first manufacturer of meat products, Pınar the World Wide company's", and "Apikoğlu meat products, which is Turkey's first store, established in 1910 in Kayseri'. The translations are rough, but in my manner of comprehension, they appear to support the credible assertions made with the hook. If you have specific suggestions regarding copy-edits, please either copy-edit the article, or be specific where you feel modifications are necessary. Thank you for your interest in this nomination.—My76Strat (talk) 19:51, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Meat in fact hasn't been mass produced during the Ottoman Empire. They were just produced in various butcher shops belonging to certain guilds. There were no such "corporation" or "manufacturer" in the modern sense that sold meat prior to Apikoglu. They incorporated the assembly line and other industrial techniques in order to mass produce. The sources all reaffirm this. They are in Turkish though. But I am might have to change the word producers to manufacturers. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:52, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I would consider producer synonymous with manufacturer in the context of this article. I have one related question; are you fluent in the Turkish language and able to assert full knowledge of the correct translation, without any assumptions?—My76Strat (talk) 22:34, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes of course I speak, write, and read Turkish fluently. Along with many other languages. This is the correct translation of the articles and is reaffirmed by many other sources as well. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I had assumed as much, and now I've even asked.—My76Strat (talk) 23:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Hook

Giving this further consideration, it does seem less confusing if the hook fact distinguished itself upon "mass production". Even your answer above was dependent on the use of that qualification; twice. therefor I added the mass production qualifier, and I think adding Krikor Apikoğlu's name as founder is a necessary segue to the included file, flowing nicely to his ethnicity, (if used).—My76Strat (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

ALT2 ~~... that Apikoğlu Brothers, the first company to mass produce meat products in Turkey, was founded by Krikor Apikoğlu, (pictured) an ethnic Armenian?~~ or;
ALT2.1 ~~... that Krikor Apikoğlu, (pictured) founded Apikoğlu Brothers—the first company to mass produce meat products in Turkey?~~

How about simply:

ALT3 ~~... that Apikoğlu Brothers was the first company to mass produce meat products in Turkey]?~~

The founder's ethnicity isn't nearly as impressive as that it's the first such company and there are lots of hooks about Turks of Armenian ethnicity in the pipeline right now.--Carabinieri (talk) 05:09, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I somewhat agree, and have noticed the similar hooks in other nominations. One thing that needs to be accommodated however, is that at some point, the hook needs to flow through the parenthetical; (pictured), since there is an image associated with this nomination. I tweaked ALT2 a bit to demonstrate. All that remains to do is select an appropriate hook and I think this nomination will have been sufficiently vetted.—My76Strat (talk) 08:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

File discussion

I am reopening my portion of this review to allow further considerations. In particular, Proudbolsahye posted a question on my talk page, which I have moved here to answer, and to see other opinions as well. Proudbolsahye's question follows the bullet:

Why remove the picture of Krikor Apikoglu? I think a picture of him should be added to the Apikoglu article as well. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:13, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

The file was discussed above when I said to you: "The fair use rationale for File:Apikoglu.jpg is not compelling", going on to say: "I am doubtful that significant claims of fair use can be made"—and seeing your reply as: "Im fine with the removal of picture also." Seeing there was less agreement than I had understood, I'll offer a brief answer, and hopefully see other comments follow. The shortest answer is that it did not meet the requirements of fair use. It is your burden, if you want to include a file, to upload it under a proper license, or in this case, to present a fair use rational that was in fact rational. I think it is folly however, because I believe you will not be able to demonstrate compliance with WP:NFCC#8! (which I understand is very important)—My76Strat (talk) 21:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Im sorry but I think there was a misunderstanding. I told you to remove it as part of the DYK hook. For some reason I thought the picture was part of the hook and in order to respect DYK guidelines of pictures, I said its fine to remove. But I didnt mean to have it removed from the article. You can have non-free images in the article just as long as it is not part of the DYK hook. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I understand. I only recently realized that when you nominated the article, you had included the file.[1] And that the next day VernoWhitney removed it from this nomination for similar reasons.[2] My comments were regarding the file as it was presented in the article, and I simply maintain the perspective, that the {{fur}} was not compelling, and that I doubt it could be. So what should be next?—My76Strat (talk) 21:51, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Now we got to wait :) If you'd like you can reaffirm your approval for DYK unless you have other objections of course. The approval seems lost amongst all these comments. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:31, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Waiting depends mostly on how you want to handle File:Apikoglu.jpg. If you are understanding and agree not to include the file, I can reinstate my approval of its form. If you want to see the image in the article, that will take more time to settle.—My76Strat (talk) 23:02, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok I fixed licensing issues. Proudbolsahye (talk) 23:17, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

This is difficult to explain, but no, you haven't fixed a thing—that would make it necessary for you to include this non-free image. You are already using one non-free file in the infobox. Arguably, it does significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. The same can not be said of the portrait. Notwithstanding that while it is difficult to justify the inclusion of 1 non-free file, it becomes even more stringent when trying to add two. I will ask someone else to look at my interpretation on this, but I am feeling pretty certain.—My76Strat (talk) 23:53, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the licensing of the picture (See: File:Apikoglu.jpg). Its more than 70 years old making it of free use. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:36, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Now that looks promising. We need to get this file over to commons, then you can use it as a free image, and, we can consider adding this hook with the image like you first intended. I'll see what I can arrange. Consider alt2 as well, so we can finish this.—My76Strat (talk) 00:59, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I personally liked ALT1 the most. Yes we can add the image to the hook now. Proudbolsahye (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with ALT1. I contacted some help to move the file, apparently the tool is down. Can you just upload a new file directly to commons with a new file name, and we can just csd the one on wiki and start using the free one? If so, just go ahead and do it, and we'll be moving right along.—My76Strat (talk) 01:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The file can be added to commons later on. I added the free licensed picture to the article. I think we're good to go. Proudbolsahye (talk) 02:49, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

The file issue is resolved, it is now on commons and the license is appropriate for the file. It renders well at 100px x 100px, so I have no problem with it being in the article, nor being included with this nomination. The only thing left is determining the best hook to use. see the comments above in the section titled "Hook".—My76Strat (talk) 08:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Copyediting

As I mentioned above this article still needs copyediting by a native English speaker. Unfortunately I can't do it right now. Here are a couple of examples:

"The company eventually moved to Istanbul in 1920, managing and operating the company in the Maltepe neighborhood of İdealtepe, a district near the Süreyya Plaj" Who managed and operated?
"The family managed the business on the lower level of the building they resided, on the upper levels, in" You can't move the preposition "in" to the end of the sentence like that.

Someone just needs to go through the article thoroughly and take care of all this.--Carabinieri (talk) 09:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll see to it, thank you for clarifying this matter.—My76Strat (talk) 09:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I've take the article through two rounds of copy-editing. While I am certain it can be further improved, I am equally as certain it does not fail the DYK criteria, which unlike other reviews, does not require "brilliant prose". I have considered the comments and the requirements of the hook and added the following example above as ALT2.1, the promoted hook:

~~... that Krikor Apikoğlu, (pictured) founded Apikoğlu Brothers—the first company to mass produce meat products in Turkey?~~

To use the included image required the segue of the founders name. I linked the company into its classification and qualified the operation as mass production, eliminating the invitation of skepticism. I de-linked Turkey per WP:OVERLINK, and eliminated the inclusion of the founders ethnicity. It does detract from the important point of the hook, that this company was the first, without adding any perceived value (extrinsic). The existence of several current DYK nominations whose hook accentuates Armenian ethnicity, from the same nominator, lead me to believe its inclusion is primarily a measure of the nominator's intrinsic value, and in this example, superfluous; even extraneous (as described above).—My76Strat (talk) 12:05, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Considering the above comments, and all other things, I am confident to close my review recommending promotion of this nomination as it relates to this version of the article reviewed.—My76Strat (talk) 12:05, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can determine, the approved hooks (and, indeed, all hooks but the original one) were proposed by My76Strat. As such, they cannot also be approved by My76Strat. (Please see WP:DYKSG#H2: "You're not allowed to approve your own hook or article.") The hook is also not quite formatted properly: there is inappropriate bolding. Here's a revised version with correct formatting and slightly improved punctuation (for DYK, we don't put non-breaking spaces into a person's name):

ALT2a: ~~... that Krikor Apikoğlu (pictured) founded Apikoğlu Brothers, the first company to mass produce meat products in Turkey?~~

Independent reviewer needed to check the various ALT2 variants and ALT3. I've only fixed the bolding in the top ALT2.1 (I have renumbered that hook throughout to match the subsequent ALT2.1 designation for that identical hook) and ALT2a; the reviewer should be sure that the bolding is fixed in all approved hooks. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:36, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Are you not a reviewer BlueMoonset?—My76Strat (talk) 03:07, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes. However, since I've contributed a suggested hook (ALT2a), I'm not eligible here. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I see. Well, for what it's worth, ALT2a appears fine to me. With that we'll leave it for another to decide. Cheers,—My76Strat (talk) 06:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I still have some concerns. First of all, I was unable to find any mention of "Apikoglu Brothers" in English online (actually there were some google hits, but those appear to be a result of the existence of this Wikipedia article). I was able to find some references to just Apikoglu or Apikoglu Sucuklari. WP:EN would require us to either use one of those names or to use the Turkish name in that case (even if the title remains in English, the Turkish name should be mentioned in the article, preferably in parentheses after the English name is first mentioned). Secondly, the "Innovations" section seems rather vague to me. It discusses some ominous revolutionary technique or system that the company used, but fails to mention what that technique was. Thirdly, are you sure that this company was the first to mass produce meat products? I tried to check the sources, but the google translation of the Turkish sources didn't make any sense. You've nominated several articles claiming ethnic Armenians to be have been the first at something and then revised that claim. This source merely claims that Apikoglu is the "oldest commercial spiced sausage and salami processor" (though I can't vouch for its reliability).--Carabinieri (talk) 19:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
1) There are a number of news sources I found with a Google Books search (some examples: 1 2 3). I have even found international sources such as (German). Some of these are a mere mention of the company. But I don't get why I even have to look for English sources. It is clearly found in dozens if not hundreds of Turkish sources.

2) Innovations issue addressed. 3) I already have 5 sources that show it was the first mass producing meat company in Turkey. In fact you came up with another source saying it was the "oldest" which implies it was the first. I can find dozens more but I really don't have the need to. Especially when there is already five sources provided and I have direct quotes from them proving that they were the first meat processing/producing company in Turkey. These sources include respected news agencies in Turkey such as Millyet Gazete and Haber 10. Additionally, I would also like the reader to easily verify a few sources rather than bombarding them with just more and more. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:47, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but none of those refer to the company as "Apikoglu Brothers", just as "Apikoglu". Like I said, if that is the name most sources in English use, then it should also be the article of the title, per WP:EN.
That's better-
I was just trying to make sure you're certain. The source I cited doesn't say it was the oldest meat processor, but merely the oldest spiced sausage and salami processor.--Carabinieri (talk) 21:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Proudbolsahye agreed with me (in a note on my talk page) that the page should be moved and I have moved it. All of my concerns have been put to rest.--Carabinieri (talk) 00:27, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

As the article title has been changed to Apikoğlu (I've adjusted the DYKmake and DYKnompage templates accordingly), shouldn't the hooks be changed as well? Carabinieri, it would help if all the hooks you are approving could be relisted below—changing the name of the bolded linked article would not require additional approval, just clarifying which are approved and striking the ones that are not. This is a very long nomination history to wade through, and a confusing set of ALT names as well. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:52, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
You're right, I was only thinking of the article, not the hook. I do hereby solemnly approve the following, slightly modified hook:

ALT4.7a (or something like that)... that Krikor Apikoğlu (pictured) founded Apikoğlu, the first company to mass produce meat products in Turkey?--Carabinieri (talk) 02:34, 8 March 2013 (UTC)