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Template:Did you know nominations/Bladimir Lugo

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by BlueMoonset (talk) 03:49, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

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Bladimir Lugo

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  • Comment: New article created on 26 April. This person is controversial during the Crisis in Venezuela.

Created by Cyfraw (talk) and Jamez42 (talk). Nominated by Cyfraw (talk) at 07:44, 30 April 2019 (UTC).

  • Hi Cyfraw - The date seems a little redundant. Expanded within time. Plenty of prose and no copyvio that I could find. Hooks seem a little questionable to me - "attacked?" It seems more like they have stormed the building. I don't know. It's a little confusing; might just need a reword. ALT1 is better, if you remove the date, and put in "promoted" for "awarded". Sources are fine though Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:44, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
pinging @Cyfraw and Jamez42: in case you want to respond and get this out for the June 29 anniversary? Kingsif (talk) 13:56, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
It's better to display this DYK on June 29. Just correct the blurb correctly. --cyrfaw (talk) 21:09, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
So, like? @Lee Vilenski and Cyfraw:
Kingsif (talk) 21:19, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Better, but should say "only moments after leading a "siege"" --cyrfaw (talk) 21:22, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I'm a lot happier with that. I'd pass, but just check with Cyfraw before I give the tick. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:42, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I'm ready with the DYK blurb. --cyrfaw (talk) 21:53, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 06:23, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but I was wondering if you read the article, @Lee Vilenski:? The grammar doesn't make sense, and I tagged several words that aren't English. In this run-on paragraph under Controversy, where does this sentence begin and end:
  • On 29 December 2016, he allegedly assaulted NTN24 journalist Rafael Hernández, hitting to his work team and banning him from entering the country's vice-presidency, when he pushed and tripped Antonieta Mendoza, mother of Leopoldo López, and again on 28 June he pushed the president of the National Assembly Julio Borges.
  • Or this run-on sentence, which seems to blame journalists for attacking journalists:
  • Tinedo Guía, the president of the National Association of Journalists (CNP), rejected the continuous aggressions against him of journalists, cameramen, and photographers who cover the Federal Legislative Palace on a daily basis given by GNB officials commanded by Lugo for what declared him persona non grata, urging the rest of the CNP section of the country to comply with this statement, calling on the competent institutions to investigate and reject irregular facts.
  • In the third paragraph under "Controversy", it's not explained why this is a controversy. Similarly, the fourth paragraph seems more like a grudge by the media than a "controversy". Wikipedia is not a court of law. The section "2017 Venezuelan National Assembly attack", starting with calling it an "attack" and the language used throughout the section, like saying journalists were "held captive", is very POV. Also, shouldn't "allegedly" be added somewhere if he wasn't convicted in a court of law? No explanation is given for why two days after the siege Lugo was suddenly promoted.
  • Finally, it's not clear why he's being called Bladimir instead of Vladimir. Yoninah (talk) 10:21, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I was the creator of the article. First of all I will take a look at some of the grammar errors. Second, his name should be "Bladimir" instead of "Vladimir" since most Venezuelan news outlets mention "Bladimir". Also @Lee Vilenski: can help me fix these problems. --cyrfaw (talk) 10:27, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

pinging @Kingsif and Jamez42: as well --cyrfaw (talk) 10:29, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. I notice at WT:DYK#Bladimir Lugo the comment by Cwmhiraeth that since this is a BLP, the presentation must be handled very neutrally. Yoninah (talk) 10:30, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm similarly confused about the question "it's not clear why he's being called Bladimir instead of Vladimir" — because his name is Bladimir. Venezuela is full of bastardizations and hispanifications of Russian names, and 'v' is pronounced 'b' in Spanish, which may be why his parents gave him this name. A name's a name, odd that you would question it. I can help with the clean-up if needed. Kingsif (talk) 10:33, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
I noticed that in several references his name is spelled Vladimir, so I asked. Yoninah (talk) 10:37, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I haven't exactly been through the sources - but state TV (because Youtube) uses Bladimir, and they'll have his ID card. Kingsif (talk) 10:39, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Even if you look at the sanctions list by Panama, Canada and the US, his name is mentioned in full and as "Bladimir" not "Vladimir". --cyrfaw (talk) 10:42, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Like this, Bladimir Humberto Lugo Armas --cyrfaw (talk) 10:43, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
The name seems plenty well sourced enough for me. Sources using Vladimir could easily be errant spelling corrections. I'll take a look at the article, but I don't think it's that bad. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:03, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
"Vladimir" is way more common in Spanish, like defense ministry Vladimir Padrino López. I had a similar confusion in the Spanish article, but I think I checked his legal name as well as the prevalence of the use. Bladimir is most certainly his name. --Jamez42 (talk) 17:38, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
  • I notice that some editing has been done on the article. You may want to apply at WP:GOCE for a copyeditor who is familiar with English grammar. Yoninah (talk) 20:52, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Ok, but where running out of time to meet the article deadline for DYK. We have less than 12h away. --cyrfaw (talk) 16:23, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
Otherwise, delay the DYK posting for a few days until the article is fixed. Once it is fixed, this DYK can be posted ASAP when ready. I already requested for copy-writing here. Is that OK? --cyrfaw (talk) 22:48, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Sure, that's fine. Yoninah (talk) 18:19, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

@Yoninah: @Lee Vilenski: It's been two weeks that I referred this article to the GOCE for copy edit. However, my request still remains unanswered. Any solutions to this, because where running out of time to promote this as DYK. The two year anniversary has already passed away on 29 June. What solutions are available for putting this into Main Page? --cyrfaw (talk) 08:05, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Should we wait for it to be posted on the Main Page after copy editing is done? I already made a lot of efforts to improve the page. --cyrfaw (talk) 08:08, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
It often takes time to complete the GOCE review. From the point of view of DYK, we're in no hurry. This nomination will stay on the nomination page as long as necessary. Please let me know when the GOCE is done. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 18:17, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

@Yoninah: @Lee Vilenski: The copy edit process is now complete, as one user notified me through my talk pages. What are your thoughts for this? Is it ready for DYK or additional things are needed before proceeding? -cyrfaw (talk) 12:52, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

First DYK article so no QPQ required
Article created by Cyfraw on April 25, 2019 with 6742 characters (1047 words) "readable prose size"
NPOV
ALT2 Hook is interesting, short enough and sourced with Refs 12 and 13
Hook is sourced to:
  • Ref 12 "Deputies and journalists in the AN remained "kidnapped" for more than four hours after government siege"
  • Ref 13 "The President of the Republic, Nicolás Maduro, decorated the night of Thursday, June 29, Colonel Bladimir Humberto Lugo Armas ... 480 soldiers of the National Armed Forces (FANB) that make up the Presidential Honor Guard received the promotion to the immediate superior degree."
Every paragraph sourced
Earwig @ Toolserver Copyvio Detector found no copyvio
GTG -- Thats Just Great (talk) 20:54, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I came by to finally promote this, but ALT2 is 251 characters long which is 51 more than the maximum amount allowed. SL93 (talk) 22:37, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I think ALT3 is 200 characters and ALT4 without the time frame is 185-- Thats Just Great (talk) 04:49, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Striking ALT3 for excessive length. ALT1 says he was "awarded" moments later, while ALT4 says he was "promoted" moments later. Please clarify. Actually, I would suggest deleting all the name-dropping and just stating the hook fact in brief. Let people click on your article to learn more. Yoninah (talk) 19:14, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT5:... that Colonel Bladimir Lugo was promoted two years ago, only moments after leading a siege against the Venezuelan National Assembly president?
  • Ref 12 "Deputies and journalists in the AN remained "kidnapped" for more than four hours after government siege"
  • Ref 13 "The President of the Republic, Nicolás Maduro, decorated the night of Thursday, June 29, Colonel Bladimir Humberto Lugo Armas ... 480 soldiers of the National Armed Forces (FANB) that make up the Presidential Honor Guard received the promotion to the immediate superior degree."
  • Thanks, Thats Just Great. I think it could be tweaked a little to get rid of the two time references:
  • ALT5a: ... that Bladimir Lugo, colonel of the Bolivarian National Guard, was promoted moments after leading a siege against the president of the Venezuelan National Assembly?
  • But is this even hooky? We have to be careful of BLP issues, but is this the hookiest thing that can be said? My previous experience with this DYK nomination makes me think that the nominators have a POV issue to advance. Yoninah (talk) 20:06, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
  • That's quite a strong claim, I wouldn't like to think so; I also hope you appreciate my growing experience at DYK in reading the Alt proposals as just trying to make it more hooky. If you don't think it is, a read of the article brings me to other suggestions - though they are also rather 'negative' (if that is a BLP issue then perhaps the article should go, since it's largely a rap sheet of all the important things Lugo's done that he seems to have done wrong):
  • ALT6: ... that less than a month after being awarded a Venezuelan military Cross, the same nation's Public Ministry summoned Bladimir Lugo for multiple attack accusations?
  • ALT7: ... that Venezuelan general Bladimir Lugo is sanctioned by two nations for unconstitutional actions in his home country, and in another for the distinct charges of money laundering?
Kingsif (talk) 23:10, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Those hooks are a little rough. Copyedited versions below Thats Just Great (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2019 (UTC):
  • ALT8: ... that less than a month after being awarded a Venezuelan military Cross, Venezuela's Public Ministry summoned Bladimir Lugo over accusations of multiple attacks?
  • ALT8a: ... that less than a month after he was awarded the Cross of the Presidential Guard, Venezuela's Public Ministry summoned Bladimir Lugo over accusations of multiple attacks?
  • ALT9: ... that Venezuelan general Bladimir Lugo is sanctioned by two nations for actions in Venezuela, and in another for money laundering charges?
  • Striking the BLP violations. ALT8 is okay. I'd like to look at this carefully a little later. Yoninah (talk) 16:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
  • OK, I've read the whole article. I'm sorry, I don't find the page neutral at all. You have 3 sentences about his career and 2 sentences about his promotion and awards, and the rest is paragraph after paragraph explaining why he's a no-goodnik. The page reads like a charge sheet. The first paragraph under "Incidents and controversies", and other attacks credited to him, doesn't even use the word "allegedly". There are no balancing statements from authorities or anyone else defending him or explaining why what he did could be construed differently.
  • I understand this was edited by the GOCE, but what is a sentence like this doing here?
  • Tinedo Guía, the president of the National Association of Journalists (CNP), rejected the continuous aggressions against him from journalists, cameramen, and photographers who covered the Federal Legislative Palace on a daily basis carried out by National Guardsmen commanded by Lugo, reason why he declared him persona non grata and urged the rest of the CNP sections of the country to comply with this statement and called on the competent institutions to investigate and reject incorrect facts. Yoninah (talk) 20:48, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
I'll say I haven't fully read the page in a while and will look it over, but remember that NPOV is based on presentation and tone, not the content. Some people do more bad things than good, at least that shows up in media. We're not going to shorten the genocide section on Hitler's article to make it only as long as the art school mention, so the length counts you cite are effectively meaningless. As said, though, I'll see what I can do to make it neutral if you really think it isn't. Kingsif (talk) 21:20, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Ok, I just made this edit, which addressed the parts I found concerning. I've also added more subheadings that indicate where the 'negative' is that people are calling controversy over orders he did or didn't give (i.e. make it clear that not all allegations are violence); plus a short intro to the section on incidents that is simple but hopefully outlines there is politics involved with accusations and why some of the non-violent actions may be described in quotes so strongly. The strong language in WP voice was removed or rephrased, and where there has been no charge or there is no tangible evidence for orders/violence (most of the violence does have recordings attached in sources), "allegedly" or some version that reads well has been added. Some irrelevant parts have been wholesale removed, as they were artificially lengthening the controversy section. Kingsif (talk) 21:48, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
  • New reviewer needed to check that the issues raised with neutrality have been fully addressed and to confirm that ALT8 and the other unstruck hooks are okay. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:30, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I have read the article, and made some edits to address some of the translation issues (some still remain). I am not convinced that the article is neutral or balanced. 13 paras are about the last 2 - 2 1/2 years, and only 2 provide information for earlier periods. One of those mentions "the kidnapping of Cedeño's daughter in 2005". The source for that, Diario Las Américas, says (translated) "Banker Eligio Cedeño said on his Twitter account that Lugo is the same colonel involved in the kidnapping of his daughter in 2005, when the trial court ordered an investigation. He also says Lugo was involved in the case of the Faddoul brothers, who were executed along with their driver in a failed kidnapping." While the newspaper might be reliable, what one person says on Twitter does not seem a reliable source for an allegation that someone was involved in a kidnapping. After stating the allegations, this Wikipedia article then has the sentence "At this time, the trial court ordered his investigation", which does not read naturally to me in English, but more importantly, if a court investigation is mentioned, I think it should be followed by information about what happened. The same applies to the summons of 13 July 2017 - what was the result of the court action? I also find the order in which events are presented rather confusing - the actions for which he was summonsed are described in the following paragraph, without actually making that link - it's necessary to look at the dates to see that it's one of the violent actions (though actually, one para has the date 27 June 2017, and the other has the date 28 June 2017).
As for the hooks, ALT5 and ALT5a say that he was promoted "moments" after leading a siege, while the article states that it was "two days later". Also, they say that the siege was "against the Venezuelan National Assembly president", while the article refers to "National Assembly speaker Julio Borges", and says that the guards "stormed the National Assembly and assaulted the largely opposition legislative body". So I am striking those hooks. As for ALT8, I find it somewhat misleading (no doubt unintentionally) that "the Cross of the Presidential Guard" is described in the hook as "a Venezuelan military Cross" - even without a capital letter on military, it leads me to think that it's similar to the Military Cross, which I think is actually a much more significant award than this. So I have struck ALT8 too, and substituted ALT8a (above).
Overall though, I would say that the issues of neutrality, balance, accuracy and translation remain, and that the article does "require considerable work before becoming eligible." Whether it is possible to find the information to address all the issues, I don't know. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:10, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
I notified the article creator about these issues (on their Talk page), and they replied that they will try to fix the article, but they are busy right now. I don't see here or on this page that they were notified when the NPOV question was raised on 23 July, so perhaps they could be given more time to work on it. RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:54, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
I'll note that the National Assembly President is the same thing as the National Assembly speaker - "speaker" being a solely US term that has been substituted in the article to aid understanding, i.e. to not make Americans think he was the National President. It's the equivalent position to a Prime Minister everywhere else. The Cross of the Presidential Guard is not similar to the Military Cross, it's basically handed out by the president for those he thinks have honored him. One issue might be that Venezuelan politics is particularly complicated. Kingsif (talk) 18:47, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Note: Cyfraw made the request to withdraw this nomination on their talk page about 20 hours ago, after I had pinged them about whether they could address the issues raised above; I am copying the request here, and will process the withdrawal shortly. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:40, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I was busy with my university studies, actually is it possible to withdraw the DYK as personal request, I'm no longer interested. Because I couldn't find reliable sources regarding this article. --cyrfaw (talk) 07:43, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
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