- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 10:22, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
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Cccan't You See
edit- ... that Vicious Pink sampled Russian choirs for their single "Cccan't You See" in an effort to diffuse tensions over the Cold War?
Created by Launchballer (talk). Self-nominated at 00:38, 21 July 2015 (UTC).
Full review needed now that a QPQ has been submitted. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:07, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Created over a redirect on 21 July by nominator. Article is 1518 characters of readable prose, has no close paraphrasing or copyvio issues. Image seems acceptable under non-free content policy and fair use. Hook cited in article. Nothing here appears to contravene policy Ykraps (talk) 16:09, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
The article doesn't have a single secondary source about the single itself, and includes a great deal of material about the charting of previous and subsequent singles that isn't really relevant to this single (certainly not at that level of detail) and therefore doesn't belong in the article. For this to run at DYK we need more about the song, including from secondary sources that aren't raw chart data. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:51, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- I agree that the article isn't the best but I believe it meets the basic criteria; and although secondary sources are preferred, primary sources are acceptable providing the editor excercises caution. I see you create a lot of music articles and have managed to raise many of them to GA status, and wonder whether your expectations are too high? That's just my humble opinion and I hope it doesn't cause you any offence. Ykraps (talk) 17:48, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- I do agree with BlueMoonset that the level of chart information was excessive, and I've slashed it down. I took another look for sources and I've found another couple of sources - better?--Launchballer 18:55, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- Ykraps, I am far more experienced in the DYK space than the GA space, and I think my expectations for both are quite different and in line with their separate criteria. I've also commented on dozens of Launchballer's DYK nominations at this point; as you can see, he agreed with at least one of my points. As for the secondary sources, they're a good start. The problem I'm seeing is that the article isn't properly reflecting the Allmusic source (the only one that's online): "The gradual nature of the chart history can be attributed to the sluggish manner in which DJs played it" isn't at all what's said there, which is that it took a while to become a hit, not that once it made it onto the charts the DJs were sluggish. Also, about the second uncut album, Allmusic says "(the DJ-only label announced a Vicious Pink: Uncut 2 in 2004)": an announcement doesn't guarantee a release—you notice they're careful not to come out and state that it was released—and 2004 is not 2002. This kind of inaccuracy is troubling. One last thing, Launchballer: you need to be very careful in all your music articles that you always put double quotes around song titles, and render album titles in italics. The new material failed to use double quotes, as did the hook in this nomination; I've just fixed both, but really shouldn't have had to. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:56, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- My reading of the source is that DJs slowly adopted the song into their set lists. This can go some way to explain the chart trajectory (most records that chart that low only spend a week there). The year was an asinine error, and I've amended both. I have no idea why I can't get it into my head to use italics/double quotes, as on at least one article it has meant the difference between making the 1,500 character length limit and not...--Launchballer 20:22, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- Launchballer, since it can as easily mean that the gradual adoption kept it from hitting the chart quickly as sustained it on the chart once it was there, you are making a conclusion that it not supported by the source as worded. That's clearly WP:OR:
any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources.
And you don't have any source making that specific connection. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:44, 16 August 2015 (UTC)- The very first source says "The sales were first high in the North of England (Where we were from) and then high in the South. Because of that Gallop weighted us lower down the chart for not having an even spread of sales", although it fails to explain what Gallop is.--Launchballer 01:03, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
- The first source is primary, and shouldn't be used for this kind of information, not to mention that the synthesis of the two sources is still more OR even if the first isn't cited here. I've deleted the sentence from the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset: How's it looking now?--Launchballer 22:27, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
- The first source is primary, and shouldn't be used for this kind of information, not to mention that the synthesis of the two sources is still more OR even if the first isn't cited here. I've deleted the sentence from the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
- The very first source says "The sales were first high in the North of England (Where we were from) and then high in the South. Because of that Gallop weighted us lower down the chart for not having an even spread of sales", although it fails to explain what Gallop is.--Launchballer 01:03, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
- Launchballer, since it can as easily mean that the gradual adoption kept it from hitting the chart quickly as sustained it on the chart once it was there, you are making a conclusion that it not supported by the source as worded. That's clearly WP:OR:
- My reading of the source is that DJs slowly adopted the song into their set lists. This can go some way to explain the chart trajectory (most records that chart that low only spend a week there). The year was an asinine error, and I've amended both. I have no idea why I can't get it into my head to use italics/double quotes, as on at least one article it has meant the difference between making the 1,500 character length limit and not...--Launchballer 20:22, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- I do agree with BlueMoonset that the level of chart information was excessive, and I've slashed it down. I took another look for sources and I've found another couple of sources - better?--Launchballer 18:55, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- New reviewer requested to check the new material (over 1000 prose characters have been added) and sourcing. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Several long phrases are copied or closely paraphrased from the first reference. Also, the source given for the "sampled Russian choirs" hook claim doesn't mention choirs, just Russians (the choirs are mentioned in the first reference, but the article does not use this reference for this claim). —David Eppstein (talk) 20:03, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Going by eye I saw two extended offending strings, which have been amended.--Launchballer 20:57, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Launchballer, the sentence in the article that mentions Russian choirs (and the reason for using them) does not have a source citation by the end of it, a standard requirement for DYK hooks. Without that specifically placed citation (or citations) to support the claim, this nomination cannot proceed given the proposed hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
- Going by eye I saw two extended offending strings, which have been amended.--Launchballer 20:57, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
- Shouldn't it be "defuse", not "diffuse tensions"? Both forms do occur in Wikipedia but, for example, Wiktionary gives "To make less dangerous, tense, or hostile" as the second definition of "defuse", after "to remove the fuse from a bomb". "Diffuse" is defined as "To spread over or through as in air, water, or other matter, especially by fluid motion or passive means", probably not something you'd want to do with tension. HazelAB (talk) 13:17, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- Well, that's news to me.
- ... that Vicious Pink sampled Russian choirs for their single "Cccan't You See" in an effort to defuse tensions over the Cold War?--Launchballer 17:50, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- HazelAB is correct. It should be "defuse", as in easing tensions, not "diffuse" which would just spread them over a wider area. Diffuse is frequently misused to mean defuse, but that doesn't make it right. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 21:37, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
- Ok then, size and age are fine. The article is neutral. Earwigs is negative. The hook is cited and as the hook is a declaration of the band's intentions I don't have a problem using a primary source for it. The site is down but I can see the material on a google search. The phrase "in full swing" in the text is (a) a little colloquial and (b) copied from the source, so have reworded it to distance from source. Otherwise I am happy for this to be used. good to go. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:08, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- HazelAB is correct. It should be "defuse", as in easing tensions, not "diffuse" which would just spread them over a wider area. Diffuse is frequently misused to mean defuse, but that doesn't make it right. —GrammarFascist contribstalk 21:37, 7 October 2015 (UTC)