- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet (talk) 10:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
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Doug Turley
- ... that American football player Doug Turley reportedly performed better after fracturing a bone in his wrist? Source: The Tribune ("Turley had poor luck earlier in the season when he fractured a bone in his wrist. Since that time he has turned in two of his best performances.")
- ALT1: ... that Doug Turley played for the Washington Redskins and for the Washington Redskins? Source: played for the Washington Redskin football team played for a basketball team known as the Washington Redskins (the team was known as that due to being composed of mainly Redskin players, although they had others as well)
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Jug Bennett (6/7)
- Comment: I think ALT1 makes a good quirky hook and slightly prefer that be the one that gets promoted (if there are no issues).
5x expanded by BeanieFan11 (talk). Self-nominated at 22:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Doug Turley; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
Article meets DYK requirements. A QPQ has been done. I didn't find any close paraphrasing. Both of the hooks are cited inline; my TWL access does not include Newspapers.com so I am assuming good faith for the relevant sources. As much as I understand what ALT1's point is, I feel it might fall afoul of WP:DYKSG#C2 since not everyone in the world might be familiar with the Washington Redskins/Commanders. As for ALT0, I think it could be revised. First, due to how it's written, it might be useful to link to American football to avoid ambiguity, and secondly, the hook kind of suggests that him fracturing his bone made him perform better when neither the article nor the quote give such a cause-and-effect relationship. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:03, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- If you think that ALT2 fails the criteria that's fine (though I would think its interesting that someone played for two teams with the exact same name even if I didn't know the teams). As for the original hook, I specified the sport, but the source does seem to mention that he did better afterwards (i.e. if someone has some of his best performances after breaking his wrist, isn't that the same as saying he performed better after breaking his wrist? – We're not saying that its because of his injury that he did better, just that he did better after it happened; and we're saying reportedly at that) BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:17, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- It's just to prevent an WP:ERRORS case. We need to get the wording right since the current wording is vague enough that readers might misinterpret the meaning to mean that. Sure an argument could be made that it adds hookiness, but we know how picky ERRORS can be. In addition, it turns out I do have access to Newspapers.com via TWL after all, it just loaded slowly for whatever reason so I thought it wasn't working, and I was able to verify the source. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:04, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
- If you think that ALT2 fails the criteria that's fine (though I would think its interesting that someone played for two teams with the exact same name even if I didn't know the teams). As for the original hook, I specified the sport, but the source does seem to mention that he did better afterwards (i.e. if someone has some of his best performances after breaking his wrist, isn't that the same as saying he performed better after breaking his wrist? – We're not saying that its because of his injury that he did better, just that he did better after it happened; and we're saying reportedly at that) BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:17, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- The article has a number of links to newspapers.com articles that require the reader to be logged in and meet the WP:LIBRARY requirements to be able to see the source on newspapers.com. Happily User:Citation_bot will fix links like https://www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/article/wilkes-barre-times-leader-the-evening-n/129448561/ and change it to https://www.newspapers.com/article/wilkes-barre-times-leader-the-evening-n/129448561/ which will work for all visitors. Perhaps the DYK criteria should be updated to include checking for these links or even better for running Citation Bot? I chose not to be bold here and run the bot myself on this article as I feel this is a larger issue and the bot message does not mention the links being not useful to non-logged in users. Is there a way that we can solve this minor and easily fixable issue for all DYK articles? I have some notes about this at User:Cxbrx#Newspapers.com_links. Cxbrx (talk) 11:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Cxbrx: There's a way to activate Citation bot so it fixes the links automatically (I knew it would do it eventually but I didn't you you could have it fix the links when you want it to)? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:11, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11: I've only just started using Citation bot, so I'm not that familiar with it. Nor am I familiar at all with the DYK procedure. I'm not sure I understand your reply, could you explain? I realize I could run the Citation bot on this specific article, what I'm looking for is perhaps a change in DYK procedure that will check for the www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org links for future DYK articles. I'd like to avoid having DYK articles appear on the front page with links that are not useful to non-logged in users or users that don't meet the WP:LIBRARY requirements. Maybe Citation bot gets run on DYK articles already? I'm not sure, but I don't think that Citation bot gets run automatically eventually on articles, I think a user or other bot has to pull the trigger? Perhaps you could run Citation bot on Doug Turley so that the article can move along in the DYK process? Cxbrx (talk) 16:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- I was asking in my reply how to use citation bot to fix the newspaper links. It has appeared to me that citation bot eventually runs and fixes the links, but I didn't know there was a way any user like myself could use it on articles. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ah, now I think I understand your reply. User:Citation_bot has instructions. The quickest thing is to follow the "Activate" link that leads to https://citations.toolforge.org/ and run it on a single page. Would you be willing to give it a try? I think it is important for DYK articles. Cxbrx (talk) 11:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
- Looks like it worked. Thanks for the information. I'll make sure to do it on other articles I write. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
- Ah, now I think I understand your reply. User:Citation_bot has instructions. The quickest thing is to follow the "Activate" link that leads to https://citations.toolforge.org/ and run it on a single page. Would you be willing to give it a try? I think it is important for DYK articles. Cxbrx (talk) 11:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
- I was asking in my reply how to use citation bot to fix the newspaper links. It has appeared to me that citation bot eventually runs and fixes the links, but I didn't know there was a way any user like myself could use it on articles. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11: I've only just started using Citation bot, so I'm not that familiar with it. Nor am I familiar at all with the DYK procedure. I'm not sure I understand your reply, could you explain? I realize I could run the Citation bot on this specific article, what I'm looking for is perhaps a change in DYK procedure that will check for the www-newspapers-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org links for future DYK articles. I'd like to avoid having DYK articles appear on the front page with links that are not useful to non-logged in users or users that don't meet the WP:LIBRARY requirements. Maybe Citation bot gets run on DYK articles already? I'm not sure, but I don't think that Citation bot gets run automatically eventually on articles, I think a user or other bot has to pull the trigger? Perhaps you could run Citation bot on Doug Turley so that the article can move along in the DYK process? Cxbrx (talk) 16:49, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Cxbrx: There's a way to activate Citation bot so it fixes the links automatically (I knew it would do it eventually but I didn't you you could have it fix the links when you want it to)? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:11, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11: The hook still needs to be adjusted before the nomination can be approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:00, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: Would you be alright with something like: ALT2 ... that American football player Doug Turley reportedly had some of his best performances after he fractured a bone in his wrist? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- That sounds better and less ambiguous: I'll approve this once Cxbrx's issues have been sorted out. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- For this article, the oclc link issue has been fixed, so the article could be approved. If the DYK regulars agree that the oclc link issue merits wider discussion, then perhaps someone could move the discussion to the appropriate DYK forum. Many thanks all around on this. Cxbrx (talk) 11:49, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- That sounds better and less ambiguous: I'll approve this once Cxbrx's issues have been sorted out. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:52, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- The article still has links [2] [3] to newspapers.com articles that are of little use to non-logged in users or to logged in users who do not meet the WP:LIBRARY requirements. Rather than being bold and fixing these two links, perhaps we could be bolder and fix DYK so that links to the WP:LIBRARY proxies don't appear in the final articles? Cxbrx (talk) 10:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Cxbrx: Odd that citation bot didn't fix those... Are you suggesting something like a proposal requiring DYK fix these articles before they're promoted? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- @BeanieFan11: Yeah, it looks to me like @Citation bot: does not fix citations that have URLs for multiple pages such as your recent edit (thanks!). So, I'm pinging Citation_bot here, but rather than getting this one Citation_bot issue possibly fixed, perhaps the DYK process could include running Citation_bot or something similar before promotion. It would be good to have a check for oclc.org proxy URLs that require WP:LIBRARY access and that if those URLs can't be fixed that they perhaps be marked perhaps with Template:Subscription_required or something similar. I'm not involved in DYK, so perhaps someone who is who agrees could take the initiative? BTW - many thanks for your fix here, I totally realize I could have done the fix myself for this article, but I'm hoping to fix the process for all DYK articles. Cxbrx (talk) 11:49, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Cxbrx: Odd that citation bot didn't fix those... Are you suggesting something like a proposal requiring DYK fix these articles before they're promoted? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:37, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Since this has been stuck for a while and I wasn't willing to give this a tick without the sourcing issues being addressed, @Cxbrx: does this look good on your end? I should note that, from experience, the use of OCLC stuff or Wikipedia Library sources is optional on DYK. Even paywalled sources are allowed, as long as the nominator can give a short quote in the nomination page verifying the information. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:02, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5:: Yep, this article looks good to me now. The problem is that when one uses the WP:LIBRARY and clips an article on newspapers.com, the URL will only lead to the clipped article for people who meet the requirements of WP:LIBRARY. @Citation bot: fixes most of the URLs, but not URLs that are used for multiple pages when an article is in multiple parts. It would be good if the DYK process was updated to look for the oclc.org URLs and have them fixed when necessary. As the DYK articles appear on the front page, readers that are not logged in or do not otherwise meet the requirement of a WP:LIBRARY account should have access to the original sources, especially because the fix is fairly easy. A side issue is that archive.org does not seem to successfully archive the incorrect URLs, which is not good for long term access. WP has an arrangement with Newspapers.com today but like all things, this too shall pass. Having the contents of the original newspaper article provides somewhat better future proofing than having the current incorrect URL. (I suppose WP could just rewrite these URLs, which would also solve the problem.) Allowing DYK articles to use paywalled sources seems OK to me, though not preferred. Anyway, my intention was to not hold up the DYK process for this article for very long, I mainly want to see the process updated to check for these oclc.org WP:LIBRARY issues. Cxbrx (talk) 12:48, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
If there are no more issues then this is good to go. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:36, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
