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Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Plankinton House

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:34, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

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Elizabeth Plankinton House

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Elizabeth Plankinton mansion in 1890
Elizabeth Plankinton mansion in 1890

Hook Source Ref #3 - "She was to have been married to Richard Hamilton Park, the British sculptor of the above, but was deserted in favor of a dancer from Minneapolis."

Created by Doug Coldwell (talk) and Orangemike (talk). Nominated by Doug Coldwell (talk) at 15:28, 10 January 2017 (UTC). (Notes: (1) John Plankinton was nominated on 4 January 2017 on a different template, but is being processed here as part of a double hook. (2) Richard Henry Park was nominated following a x5 expansion on 22 January 2017 and has no other template.)

Certainly new enough and long enough, policy compliant, well-sourced, neutral and free of copyvios. The hook is a bit over the 200 character mark - perhaps shave off the last bit ("because her fiance ran off with a dancer"), which would bring it under the limit. No QPQ as yet but I have every confidence one will be forthcoming. Yunshui 雲水 11:27, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
All looks to be in order, fire (at the Main Page) at will! Yunshui 雲水 12:12, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
  • ALT2: ... that "Merchant Prince and Princely Merchant" John Plankinton built the Elizabeth Plankinton mansion (pictured) as a wedding gift for his only daughter, but she refused to live in it because her fiancé ran off with a dancer?

Comment - not sure what the procedure is, but would like to make this a 2-in-1 hook with John Plankinton --Doug Coldwell (talk) 15:40, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

  • Yunshui, FYI, this follows a suggestion I made to Doug at his user talk:Doug Coldwell#Plankinton DYKs. Template:Did you know nominations/John Plankinton will need to be reviewed, its QPQ review is here and its source is now only needed for the "Merchant Prince and Princely Merchant". I suggest that the review be included here to keep everything together. I could do the John Plankinton review, but couldn't give an overall tick as I proposed the ALT idea to Doug. Yunushui, would you be willing to cover that part?
  • I have copied the DYKmake tag across to this nomination, but am unsure if this is done correctly. Should it be {{DYKmake|John Plankinton|Doug Coldwell|subpage=John Plankinton}} or {{DYKmake|John Plankinton|Doug Coldwell}}? BlueMoonset, would you please comment here and / or correct any error I have made here? Thanks.
  • Doug Coldwell, you'll need to make article edits to make sure that all of the hook facts are inline supported in both articles. I have re-named your suggestion as ALT2, and will add ALTs linking to Park. From looking at the article history, I am also unsure why Orangemike is listed as a creator here as the only edit I see is this tweak to the content. I am proposing a changed caption, which is why I am re-adding it below; the house was built 1886-1888, but the image is from 1890. The option still remains to make this a triple hook on expansion of the Park article mentioned in ALT2b.
Elizabeth Plankinton mansion in 1890
Elizabeth Plankinton mansion in 1890
  • ALT2 is 179 characters under the DYK rules and ALT2a is 194 characters under DYK rules. ALT2b is ineligible at present at 215 characters, but if Park is expanded to a bolded article (which I am considering if Doug chooses not to expand it, or we might do collaboratively if Doug is interested – which would be a strong reason for me not to do the John Plankinton review) then it would become eligible at 195 characters. EdChem (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I will take @EdChem: up on the collaboratively part and would be glad to work together expanding it and learning some more techniques from this obvious expert.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 23:27, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply, Doug, and the praise. I'm blushing at "obvious expert"! Let's chat about that somewhere more appropriate, like one of our talk pages of at talk:Richard Henry Park, ok? EdChem (talk) 00:32, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
EdChem, I've fixed the DYKmake above (it was neither of the options, actually), and added John Plankinton to the DYK nompage links template. The article should be reviewed here, since it's part of all the hooks being proposed. I'm going to post to the original John Plankinton DYK template to note that it should not be reviewed there for just that reason. If you add a third article here, then you'll need to adjust DYK nompage links and add the additional DYKmake(s). I should point out that even if you do turn Richard Henry Park into a bolded link, ALT2b would still count as 209 characters, even excluding John, Richard, and "pictured", and ALT2a is 207 characters. (I count only one of the bold links, but it's the longer of them.) I imagine they could be shortened by tightening up "Elizabeth, his only daughter"; even eliminating the repeat of her name would get you down below 200 in both cases. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:47, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
BlueMoonset, thanks for the corrections. I am confused about the hook lengths, though. I understood from rule C3 that only the first bolded link's characters counted, rather than the longest bolded link. This was one reason (other than better flow) that led me to put John's link first. I included "Elizabeth" as his daughter's name because (a) it could be linked to Elizabeth Plankinton (though it has a separate approved DYK nom, so not as a bold link and (b) otherwise it is not clear that the house is named after the daughter. If we wanted to shorten, though, another option might be along the following lines: "... that "Merchant Prince and Princely Merchant" John Plankinton built a mansion (pictured) as a wedding gift for his only daughter, Elizabeth, but she refused to live in it because her fiancé, Richard Henry Park, ran off with a dancer?" EdChem (talk) 00:32, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
  • EdChem, which bold link is the one that should be counted is a murky area, since C3 isn't quite distinct. Is it the bold link associated with the primary name on the template (first or only one listed), is it which article happens to be linked first, or what? Since it's all pretty random, and article names can be turned into longer or shorter bold links at a whim, when I review I count the longest and drop the rest. Other people may have other methodologies, and there's a bit of wiggle room built into the maximum number anyway. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:05, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
  • @BlueMoonset: My reading of C3 is that it is unambiguous, though I agree with you that it is open to gaming. However, in the ALT3 I have proposed below, I make it as under 200 whether the longest link is kept or if only the first link is kept, so I think it is moot in this case. Perhaps a WT:DYK discussion on this point is worthwhile at some point? EdChem (talk) 22:21, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
  • UPDATE: This has been converted into a 3-article hook. I have updated the template, struck prior ALTs, and am summarising where Doug Coldwell and I are at:
Elizabeth Plankinton mansion in 1890
Elizabeth Plankinton mansion in 1890
  • (ALT3): ... that "Merchant Prince and Princely Merchant" John Plankinton built a mansion (pictured) as a wedding gift for his only daughter, Elizabeth, but she refused to live in it because her fiancé, Richard Henry Park, ran off with a dancer?
QPQ for Richard Henry Park article is Template:Did you know nominations/Cho Hŏn --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:02, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
  • It is my intention to collapse the above discussion once the expansion is done and the reviews required. EdChem (talk) 13:40, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset: I've looked over Template:Did you know nominations/John Plankinton and would be happy to approve that for DYK (ran all the usual checks) but since you've suggested that page shoudl be deleted I haven't added my comments there. Multi-page hooks are a new one on me and I'm not sure of the protocol - your guidance would be appreciated! Yunshui 雲水 14:03, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Yunshui, the review should take place here, not there, because it has now been combined in a multi-article hook with the Elizabeth Plankinton house, and now also the Richard Henry Park article. So please post what you have here, not there. However, please don't add a final tick here, because the Richard Henry Park article still needs to be reviewed, and apparently isn't quite ready. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:05, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
Yunshui, my advice is to post your review of the John Plankinton article here now, since you have done the work, before someone else reviews it. As BlueMoonset has noted, the third article isn't quite ready. On the upside, you'll get 3 QPQ credits when it's all done.  :) EdChem (talk) 22:21, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
So, with regards to the John Plankinton DYK, the article is of sufficient length, was started within a week of this nomination, meets the policy requirements and contains no copyright violations (per Earwig's tool). The "Merchant Prince and Princely Merchant" quote is present in the article and is cited appropriately. QPQ was done, image is correctly licenced and looks fine at 100px. I'll post a note on that nomination directing here. Yunshui 雲水 08:57, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: I do believe we are all done with all the parts needed for this 3-in-1 hook. Will it be #1 in queue with Elizabeth Plankinton House mansion picture? I have added EdChem as a co-creator for the John Plankinton DYK nomination. Can you please look that I did it correctly, as I would like EdChem to be co-creator for this AND Elizabeth Plankinton House, so that he receives the DYK credits on these also. Thanks! --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:51, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I have added the DYKmakes and the date of expansion of RHP. EdChem (talk) 15:13, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

@Yunshui: The 3rd article is ready for review and an overall decision on ALT3. EdChem (talk) 15:16, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Richard Henry Park is of sufficient length, was expanded within a five-day period, contains no policy violations, and doesn't show up any copyvios in Earwig's tool. The hook fact is cited directly in the article. There is perhaps a minor procedural stumbling block with regards to the date of the nomination - the 5x expansion of this article did not take place until more than a week after the original nomination was made. However, the decision to add the article to the hook was not taken until the 23rd, so I'm taking that to be the date of nomination, which puts it comfortably with a week. The hook length by my count (subtracting the second and third bolded links and the (pictured)) comes in at exactly 200 characters, so while it's pushing the limits of what would be considered "concise", I have no problem with the length. Personally, I applaud verbosity... As such, I'm happy to consider this an appropriate hook for DYK, and am giving it a pass. Phew! Yunshui 雲水 16:10, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Bravo to all involved. Yunshui, there is no procedural stumbling block about adding the Richard Henry Park nomination; it's not at all unusual to add an extra article to the nomination over a week after the original nomination is made. Just as long as the nomination is still open and the article itself is nominated within seven days and a QPQ is provided, all's well. I'd like to remind Doug Coldwell that QPQ reviews must include checks for neutrality and close paraphrasing, however. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:53, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset: Thanks for all the comments. Yes, aware of neutrality and close paraphrasing. Use Earwig often, as in my Good Article I created of 30k characters, which is 0.0%. Things were happening fast, for an old man (but that is not an excuse). I always run things through Earwig as the first thing, as that tells me a good story how things are going. I'll be more attentive...--Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:58, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
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