- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:49, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
| DYK toolbox |
|---|
Enkeli-Elisa
- ... that the Enkeli-Elisa story about a 15-year-old girl who committed suicide because she had been bullied at school turned out to be a hoax, resulting in a police investigation of the author? Source: Enkeli-Elisan kirjoittajaa epäillään petoksesta, Turun Sanomat 24 July 2012. Accessed on 26 July 2012.
Created by JIP (talk). Self-nominated at 01:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC).
- Alt0a ... that the Enkeli-Elisa story about a 15-year-old girl who committed suicide because she had been bullied at school was investigated as a fraud by the police? Source: Enkeli-Elisan kirjoittajaa epäillään petoksesta, Turun Sanomat 24 July 2012. Accessed on 26 July 2012. TSventon (talk) 13:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- @JIP: do any of the sources definitively call the story a hoax? Given that fraud charges wouldn't stick, we should be careful how we use that about a BLP... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 05:17, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- None of the sources definitively call the story a hoax. However, it is clear that neither Elisa or her parents really existed as actual people, instead the story seems to be more like a dramatised novel. It might be based on real experiences but still the specific person called Elisa never existed, neither did her parents. Minttu Vettenterä was under investigation from the police suspected of fraud, but she was never actually convicted. It was apparently not her motive to gain financial profit by deceiving people. As the article says, the media should have been more critical of the sources. JIP | Talk 19:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @JIP: Hmmm. Could you walk me through how we can call it a hoax without any sources after the fact calling it one while staying afoul of WP:OR? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 19:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- We don't necessarily have to call it a hoax if a better term can be found. The point here seems to be that Elisa's story was first presented as a story about a real person but it later became known that she never really existed but was a dramatised character invented by Vettenterä. JIP | Talk 19:50, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing clear source support that she didn't exist? That could just be me, though... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 19:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- I have added an alternative that is supported by the reference and the article. Google translate says fraud rather than hoax. TSventon (talk) 13:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- Here is a link to Minttu Vettenterä's own blog page, latest updated in 2014, which plainly says: "Elisa, Miksu ja Riikka ovat Minttu Vettenterän luomia hahmoja, mutta jokainen saa itse määritellä miten todellisilta tapahtumat ja tunteet tuntuvat.", "Elisa, Miksu and Riikka are characters created by Minttu Vettenterä, but everyone is free to define for themselves how real the events and feelings feel." Also I have seen numerous online newspaper articles saying Elisa was fictional. JIP | Talk 19:11, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing clear source support that she didn't exist? That could just be me, though... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 19:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- We don't necessarily have to call it a hoax if a better term can be found. The point here seems to be that Elisa's story was first presented as a story about a real person but it later became known that she never really existed but was a dramatised character invented by Vettenterä. JIP | Talk 19:50, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @JIP: Hmmm. Could you walk me through how we can call it a hoax without any sources after the fact calling it one while staying afoul of WP:OR? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 19:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- None of the sources definitively call the story a hoax. However, it is clear that neither Elisa or her parents really existed as actual people, instead the story seems to be more like a dramatised novel. It might be based on real experiences but still the specific person called Elisa never existed, neither did her parents. Minttu Vettenterä was under investigation from the police suspected of fraud, but she was never actually convicted. It was apparently not her motive to gain financial profit by deceiving people. As the article says, the media should have been more critical of the sources. JIP | Talk 19:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
- @JIP and Theleekycauldron: Any updates on this? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know. I have supplied evidence that Elisa and her parents were fictional and have just waited for User:Theleekycauldron to comment on it. JIP | Talk 14:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- I do understand they are fictional, but if we could just not call it a hoax, due to the word's negative connotation, we'd be on our way. If a source uses "fraud", that's fine too. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:55, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Then the hook can be edited to avoid the use of the word "hoax". Can you suggest a better hook? Would "... that the Enkeli-Elisa story about a 15-year-old girl who committed suicide because she had been bullied at school turned out to be a fraud, resulting in a police investigation of the author?" (italics added for emphasis) be OK? JIP | Talk 14:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- JIP, what do you think of my Alt0a above? Fraud is a crime and Wikipedia should not say that the author committed fraud if she was not convicted of it, see WP:BLPCRIME. TSventon (talk) 14:16, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Alt0a above looks fine to me. JIP | Talk 14:47, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- theleekycauldron, what do you think of my Alt0a above? TSventon (talk) 15:13, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- The Alt0a above looks fine to me. JIP | Talk 14:47, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- JIP, what do you think of my Alt0a above? Fraud is a crime and Wikipedia should not say that the author committed fraud if she was not convicted of it, see WP:BLPCRIME. TSventon (talk) 14:16, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- Then the hook can be edited to avoid the use of the word "hoax". Can you suggest a better hook? Would "... that the Enkeli-Elisa story about a 15-year-old girl who committed suicide because she had been bullied at school turned out to be a fraud, resulting in a police investigation of the author?" (italics added for emphasis) be OK? JIP | Talk 14:03, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
- I do understand they are fictional, but if we could just not call it a hoax, due to the word's negative connotation, we'd be on our way. If a source uses "fraud", that's fine too. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:55, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know. I have supplied evidence that Elisa and her parents were fictional and have just waited for User:Theleekycauldron to comment on it. JIP | Talk 14:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
The nomninator has six credits and I can't see any sign of a QPQ. Schwede66 02:08, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- @JIP:, can you provide a QPQ? TSventon (talk) 09:04, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- I will provide a QPQ during the weekend. I will be away for a couple of days. JIP | Talk 01:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
- As QPQ I present: Template:Did you know nominations/Indiana HB 1041. JIP | Talk 15:26, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
- I will provide a QPQ during the weekend. I will be away for a couple of days. JIP | Talk 01:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Full review needed now that QPQ has been supplied. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:07, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Hi JIP. The page seems to be ready—QPQ present, new enough and long enough, the hook is interesting—but I can't find an explicit mention of fraud in the Finnish-language sourcing using translators. Could you point me to a source that notes an investigation for fraud? Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 16:48, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
- This source which is cited in the article clearly says right in the headline that the police investigated Minttu Vettenterä for fraud. It does not say she was convicted of fraud, and the article says the investigation was later dropped. JIP | Talk 15:34, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. That was what I was looking for. This is finally ready. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 16:35, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
