Template:Did you know nominations/Everywhere We Go (ballet)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Z1720 (talk) 22:41, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Everywhere We Go (ballet)

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~~... that in the ballet Everywhere We Go, choreographed by Justin Peck and scored by Sufjan Stevens, a motif features dancers falling but caught by others?~~ Source: [1][2], pp. 331-332
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Wilhelmine Holmboe-Schenström

Created by Corachow (talk). Self-nominated at 20:55, 13 June 2022 (UTC).

This is only a preliminary review for now but I would suggest dropping the mentions of Peck and Stevens. They don't really add to the main hook fact about the dancers falling. I would also suggest proposing additional hooks because the current one is kind of on the borderline side of broad interest in my opinion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:05, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I just reviewed the ballet independently, sorry.

Substantial ballet story, on fine sources, no copyvio obvious. I find the collaboration of the two people fascinating, + Peck being the second person ever to be Resident Choreographer makes him worth introducing to our readers. What I miss is a time (for those who won't look up the people) and the NYCB. In the article, I suggest to have images of the two. I am not completely happy about much of reception already in the description, but understand. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:15, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I forgot: please check the grammar of "conceptual conversation about the score would be" and "as Peck usually choreograph abstract ballets". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you both for your reviews.

@Narutolovehinata5: As a rule of thumb I always mention the choreographer in the hook for ballets from 1909 onwards, for reasons that will take a long time to explain. Stevens is an indie singer-songwriter, not someone you'd associate with ballet, so I thought it is worth mentioning in the hook. This article took a very long time write, to the point where most things I normally find interesting enough for DYK becomes boring so I'm open to hook ideas. I did add an ALT per Gerda's suggestions below.

@Gerda Arendt: I put the fact that he's the second choreographer in the article. I'll add photos for both in the article. The description of the ballet and the reception are sometimes very difficult to separate. None of the sources I used for the description are actually reviews, despite written by critics. I'll chop the reception section a bit. I didn't want a hook focused on the Peck-Stevens collaboration because I had a hook about that for their earlier work, Year of the Rabbit (ballet), but I just realised it was in 2020, so I included an ALT below. I thought using the server thing but I find it difficult to simplify it to a hook. I rephrased both sentences you pointed out. Added year and NYCB for the dancers falling hook below.

ALT0a: ... that in the 2014 ballet Everywhere We Go, choreographed by Justin Peck and scored by Sufjan Stevens for the New York City Ballet, a motif features dancers falling but caught by others?

ALT1: ... that indie musician Sufjan Stevens composed the score for the 2014 ballet Everywhere We Go, choreographed by Justin Peck for the New York City Ballet? Corachow (talk) 13:54, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I like them both, ALT1 even better than ALT0a, - up to the prep builders. Thank you also for changes to the article which is a great gift! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

@Corachow: (edit conflict) I would still like to hear those reasons (particularly why 1909 in particular) as honestly I remain unconvinced that the mentions of the choreographers are necessary in most cases. With that said, I do think ALT1 is a better hook than the original and I think Stevens being mentioned is necessary for it to work, but I am not convinced that Peck needs to be mentioned as his mention doesn't add to the hook fact. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I note that Gerda has already approved the nomination (and edit conflicted with the comment I was writing); however, as I still have some concerns about the hook, I would suggest that the nomination not move forward yet until Corachow elaborates on the choreographer point. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:06, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

This is my opinion and observations as a ballet audience member and it is not a policy in Wikipedia or the ballet world. First point, you don't have a ballet without a choreographer. Similarly, you don't have music without composer/songwriter, that's why they are often mentioned in hooks. Second point, 1909 is when I consider choreographer having much stronger links with their works. 1909 is when Ballet Russe was founded. 1910 is when Marius Petipa, the most important choreographer in the classical ballet era, died. Not only is this a turning point in ballet history, starting from works created around the Ballet Russe founded is when ballets are copyrighted. You can't perform it or make any changes unless the choreographer or whoever owns the rights give you permission, and whoever owns the right often send someone to make sure you dance the ballets properly. Whereas older ballets, like Swan Lake, since it is not copyrighted, you don't need permission to dance it.

I actually haven't nominate any article about ballets before 1909 to DYK so I might change this rule if it happens. So far if I mention a ballet in an article or a hook about dancers, for the ones before 1909 I just say Swan Lake, and after I specify the choreographer, such as Robbins' The Cage.

Also, regarding this nomination. I don't know exactly how well-known Peck is to the general public, but he won a Tony for choreographing the 2018 Broadway revival of Carousel, and recently choreograph the Steven Spielberg West Side Story, so I believe enough people knows who Peck is and finds it interesting. Corachow (talk) 15:28, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I understand your point but I'm still not convinced that the mention of the choreographer is necessary. In addition, the 1909 cut-off seems rather arbitrary since you say it is your opinion and not something decided on by experts. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:44, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

repeating approval. None of the discussion convinces me that the hook would be more interesting without mentioning the choreographer. It's a great collaboration, so why would we mention only one? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:55, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I just think it makes the hook longer than it should be, and it feels unnecessary considering the part about the indie musician writing for a ballet is already a good hook fact by itself. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:04, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

But it was the chorographer who initiated that, and it would not have happened without him, - he was the key person in charge. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:15, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Again, you don't have a ballet without a choreographer. Stevens would not write a ballet score without Peck. I don't have a problem with longer hooks under 200 characters. Corachow (talk) 16:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Sigh – normally, I'd cut some of this in prep, but ALT1a seems like a good compromise. If Sufjan Stevens bit is up front and already luring in otherwise-uninterested readers, and Justin Peck is there for the ballet heads at the back, I don't think it unnecessarily distracts. Omitting it might even make the hook feel punchy to the point of a little insubstantial (words I can't believe i'm writing). theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 16:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. I don't really agree with the mention but if there's consensus to keep it in I won't oppose. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Also, for the record, the 1909 rule (more of a Ballet Russe rule) is something I'm fine with changing if there's a good reason to, but you can't have a ballet without a choreographer. Corachow (talk) 16:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)