- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
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German Tarok
Hearts - the suit of preference
- ...
that it isn't easy to find a card game played with German-suited cards that is as interesting as Sansprendre, a variant of German Tarok?Source: _ (1839). Das Sansprendre-Spiel in Regeln zur richtigen Auffassung und Ausführung desselben nach seinen verschiedenen Nuancen dargestellt. Bayreuth: Grau.
Created by Bermicourt (talk). Self-nominated at 14:53, 20 March 2022 (UTC).
- ALT1 ... that it's been said it's not easy to find a card game played with German-suited cards as interesting as Sansprendre, a variant of German Tarok?
- It should be clearer that this is a quoted opinion and not Wikipedia's opinion, e.g. "that reportedly it isn't easy..." Joofjoof (talk) 20:33, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- How about ALT1? Bermicourt (talk) 14:24, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
Full review needed now that an ALT hook has been proposed. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)- Assuming nobody minds, I'm going to screw around with promotion and de-promotion of this nomination for 10-15 minutes, to try and fix a bug. Please note it's not ready for promotion yet. Thanks! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 03:44, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Bug fixed. many thanks! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 03:50, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
On it.Nixing ALT0 for the exact reason Joofjoof said. — LlywelynII 17:52, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Moved to mainspace just before nomination; long enough (12k elig. chars.); no copyvio per Earwig; has an improper WP:LEADCITE that should really be repeated in the #Variations or a #Legacy &c. section with the source moved down but that's an extremely minor issue; well done and well sourced; well formatted overall but (a) uses hyphens in places where {{mdash}} would be more appropriate, (b) uses lower-case x in places where {{resx}} or {{times}} are needed, (c) Urform is cute but the running text should just be English ur-form, original form, classic form, or whatever else you end up calling the section on the old 1839 version, and similarly (d) there are still has some places where the German should be translated and the original moved to parentheses (the 1839 & 1881 treatises, Couleur for color or colour, "mudslide", &c.)—none of those are dispositive of the DYKN though; QPQ done, with nice positive support; ALT1 is fine and short enough (143 chars.) but unattested in its supposed source.
@Bermicourt: Aside from the general unpleasantness of expecting English editors to read Fraktur on their own, the cited section does not "open" with the necessary phrase. It opens with As to which cards one should play Sansprendre with, a special rule can be given, given the extraordinary variety of games; however, one can generally discount according to certain basic concepts: whether the cards are suitable for a sansprendre or not... Thank you for a great article on an interesting pastime but, no, you shouldn't expect us to be able to hunt for your support somewhere else in the Fraktur. Go ahead and find where it really is, fix the page number on the cite if necessary, and add the German quote in modern letters to the "Source:" section above. While you're there, also fix the section titles. Original form and Classic form are the same thing in English, so the second version of the Tarok rules needs a different dab and other references to "classic form" need to be emended to talk about the correct variant. — LlywelynII 18:31, 12 May 2022 (UTC)- The hook is derived from the opening sentence of the foreword (Vorwort) on page 3 of SSR which says "Es giebt nicht leicht ein Spiel mit teutschen Karten, welches so viel Interesse gewährt, als das Sansprendre: eine Abart vom teutschen Tarok..." i.e. "It is not easy to find a game played with German-suited cards that gives as much interest as Sansprendre, a variant of German Tarok...". This is cited correctly in the text, but unfortunately the link in the Bibliography sent you elsewhere which I agree was unhelpful. I've updated that now so it goes straight to the foreword. I've also made most of the changes recommended. I'm pondering how best to approach the "original" v. "classic" question. I had used "classic" in the Cambridge Dictionary sense of "having all the characterists or qualities that you expect" but I realise others may read it differently. The question of whether to use the original German or invent an English term is always a translator's dilemma; quite often when these games are described or played, the original terms are used other than for everyday card game terminology. But there isn't a hard and fast rule. Again, I'll go through those in slower time and, at the very least, try and improve the intelligibility. Thanks for your comprehensive review. Bermicourt (talk) 19:33, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sure the Cambridge Dictionary has all the senses but the root sense is setting the type for a class of objects, from which other variants are derivative and usually wanting. It's sometimes the case (may even be true here!) that the original is obscure enough that the copycat or later development comes to be considered the "classic" form, but that won't be how people already unfamiliar with the game will understand the words and I think it's safe to say most of our readers won't be familiar with this game. Note that this won't be true if "Classic Tarok" really is how Germans usually talk about that version. In that case, it might be the best way to talk about it so English-speakers could quickly understand and be understood by Germans when talking about this game. In that case, though, it'd probably be Classic Tarok (as a calqued name) rather than (descriptive) the classic form of Tarok.
- @Bermicourt: Thank you for the edits and thank you for linking (and highlighting!) the text I needed to see, but please do go ahead and change the links to take readers directly to the game's rules when you have a minute. I'm sure that'll be more helpful for more people.
Article and ALT1 is good to go. — LlywelynII 01:32, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
- The hook is derived from the opening sentence of the foreword (Vorwort) on page 3 of SSR which says "Es giebt nicht leicht ein Spiel mit teutschen Karten, welches so viel Interesse gewährt, als das Sansprendre: eine Abart vom teutschen Tarok..." i.e. "It is not easy to find a game played with German-suited cards that gives as much interest as Sansprendre, a variant of German Tarok...". This is cited correctly in the text, but unfortunately the link in the Bibliography sent you elsewhere which I agree was unhelpful. I've updated that now so it goes straight to the foreword. I've also made most of the changes recommended. I'm pondering how best to approach the "original" v. "classic" question. I had used "classic" in the Cambridge Dictionary sense of "having all the characterists or qualities that you expect" but I realise others may read it differently. The question of whether to use the original German or invent an English term is always a translator's dilemma; quite often when these games are described or played, the original terms are used other than for everyday card game terminology. But there isn't a hard and fast rule. Again, I'll go through those in slower time and, at the very least, try and improve the intelligibility. Thanks for your comprehensive review. Bermicourt (talk) 19:33, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
