Template:Did you know nominations/Hiraizumi Kiyoshi

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 11:11, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Hiraizumi Kiyoshi

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... that history professor Hiraizumi Kiyoshi believed the Emperor Jimmu to have been a real historical figure? Source: Metevelis, Peter. "HlRAlZUMl KlYOSHl 平泉、澄 . The Story of Japan, Vol.1 : History from the Founding of the Nation to the Height of Fujiwara Prosperity" (PDF). Asian Folklore Studies. 57 (2). Retrieved 18 February 2020. "Nowhere are the author’s [Hiraizumi's] nationalist feelings more obvious than in his unquestioning assumption that Emperor Jinmu (the first ruler of earth who was not a demigod) was a true historical figure..."

Reviewed: Storming of Farnham Castle

Created by Yunshui (talk). Self-nominated at 08:35, 19 February 2020 (UTC).

Article is new enough and long enough. I am a little uncertain on the sourcing of "After travelling in Europe in the early 1930s, Hiraizumi promulgated an approach to history known as kokoku goji shikan, a highly nationalist view centred on the importance of Imperial Japan." - some parts of it appear in source #1 but not all of the rest in #2. Is "high school" and "izanami"+"hakusan" mentioned in #3? I think perhaps #4 should be used for that. Which does not mention "Nihon shisoshi koza" as far as I can see. Is it a problem that #7 does not relate nationalistic view to the Shukokai? I am not sure if #9 and #10 supports all of the claims attributed to it. Hook is OK, didn't notice any plagiarism or copyvio. QPQ is OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:42, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Now I remember why I haven't done a DYK for years...

I have split the sentence his travels in Europe, since my phrasing did make it look as though the one influenced the other; that's a fair criticism.
These are mentioned on page 226 of source #3.
This is covered on page 120 of source #4.
I can't access this page right now, but I'm pretty sure I recall source #7 specifically ascribing nationalistic views to the Shukokai.
If you want me to change things, you're going to need to be specific. I don't see anything ascribed to sources #9 and #10 that isn't supported. Yunshui ^雲 _水 09:04, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

@Yunshui:The main question regarding #9 is "Hiraizumi resigned from the University after the Allied Occupation, and returned to his home prefecture of Fukui, though he continued to give lectures. " - it's not at the link as far as I can see. Since that is a book review, is it in the reviewed book? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:52, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Looks like the source got split out in subsequent editing; it's in source #3 page 226 (now added to the article). Yunshui ^雲 _水 08:57, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, a source getting disconnected from the text it supports is one of the perennial editing problems here. It seems like this is ready to go now. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:56, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Returned from prep, as the hook was altered in prep and the sets are being promoted to the queue. Here is the altered wording:
... that professor Hiraizumi Kiyoshi unquestioningly believed that Emperor Jimmu was a real historical figure?
It's not clear what the word "unquestioningly" is adding here. Perhaps the hook needs new wording. Yoninah (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

This was added by Abductive in this edit with the summary There is some doubt that Jimmu was entirely mythological. I don't think it's a particularly good reason for adding that word, though.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:32, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Waiting to hear from Abductive. Yoninah (talk) 19:28, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I feel like the edit summary speaks for itself. Jimmu may have been real. There are four problems with his historicity: he was not descended of the gods, he was not the Emperor of all of Japan, he did not reign as far back in time as the interpreters of the legend claim, and it is unlikely that he reigned for 55 years. Additionally, he was used as by right-wing historians as some sort of example of moral authority. Anyway, if you guys want you can take my concerns into consideration, change the blurb to something else, or go back to the way it was before. Abductive (reasoning) 21:06, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the others; adding "unquestioningly" does not help the hook. Jo-Jo Eumerus, Yoninah, it's been two weeks; can we get this reapproved and back into prep? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:51, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I stand by my previous comments - this hook is fine, but only without the word "unquestioningly". Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

OK, returning original hook to prep. Yoninah (talk) 11:10, 23 March 2020 (UTC)