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Template:Did you know nominations/Inger K. Frith

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 12:36, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Inger K. Frith

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  • ... that after being a high ranked pilot during World War II, Inger K. Frith became the first female president of an international sports organization and returned archery to the Olympics?
    Source: 1 "Mrs. Inger K. FRITH, the only lady President of an International Sports Federation”; 2 “ the highest ranking Danish woman in service during the Second World War” & “ She is the first woman to serve as president of an international sports federation. She is main architect of Archery's reintroduction to the Olympic programme in 1972”.
    • ALT1:... that after serving in the Royal Air Force during the Second World War, Inger K. Frith became the first woman to lead a major international sporting federation and returned archery to the Olympics? Barker, Philip. "Inger Frith blazed a trail for women in sports governance". (Proposed as a possible alternative by Cavalryman)
    • ALT2:... that after serving in the South African Air Force during the Second World War, Inger K. Frith became the first woman to lead a major international sporting federation and returned archery to the Olympics? Barker, Philip. "Inger Frith blazed a trail for women in sports governance". (Proposed as a possible alternative by Cavalryman)
    • ALT3:... that Inger K. Frith, the first woman president of a major international sporting federation, played a key role in returning archery to the Olympics? (proposed by PMCH2

Created by SportsOlympic (talk). Self-nominated at 14:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC). SportsOlympic has been blocked for sockpuppetry. Created by Cavalryman (talk)

General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

  • Sources:
  1. "Olympedia – Inger K. Frith". www.olympedia.org. – this source is of questionable reliability.
  2. MRS. INGER FRITH, Olympic Review, 1971 – the link doesn’t work for me and there is inadequate bibliographic information for me to verify what it is.
  3. "Danish WW2 Pilots | Inger Kristine Frith (née Pragholm) (1909 - 1981)". www.danishww2pilots.dk. – I am satisfied a website run by Mikkel Plannthin about WWII Danish pilots is generally reliable (he has been published writing about this subject matter) but ... this seems to have been written largely from information gained in this forum thread and there is a big disclaimer at the bottom of this article raising some very significant discrepancies within the entry, which are included as fact in the article. Particularly the rank of Captain which never existed in the WAAF. I feel this raises questions about the reliability of the source.
  4. "Inger Frith blazed a trail for women in sports governance". www.insidethegames.biz. March 5, 2021. – looks reliable to me.
  • The third paragraph in the WWII section is uncited.
  • Filling more parameters in Template:Cite web, particularly authorship, would go a long way to presentation.
  1. likely the highest ranked Danish woman in service during the Second World War – the cited source states that she was the highest ranked that the author is aware of.
  2. She became a volunteer in the army in Cape Town and was later accepted for the Air Force – the cited source makes no mention of the Army.

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: No - cites two sources with issues as described above
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No - perhaps base the hook on excellent insidethegames.biz article, something like “ that after serving in the Royal Air Force during the Second World War, Inger K. Frith became the first woman to lead a major international sporting federation and returned archery to the Olympics?” I have added it as a possible alternate above but am happy to play with it.

QPQ: No - Not done
Overall: I apologise if I seem to have been very harsh and I could be being very finicky, but the article is very clunky to read, with short little sentences and paragraphs that I feel don’t flow very well. Further, there is no such thing as the “British Air Force”, it is the United Kingdom’s air force or the Royal Air Force. Earwig shows 13.8% match to the Plannthin webpage, but I don’t think it breaches the COPYVIO threshold. Also QPQ is required. Cavalryman (talk) 04:08, 3 September 2021 (UTC).

Hello @SportsOlympic: this nomination has been sitting here for almost a week and I can see you have not edited the article, nor have you supplied a QPQ. Are you still interested in pursuing the nomination? Cavalryman (talk) 12:56, 9 September 2021 (UTC).
Olympedia are the same people as Sports Reference and is states at WP:Sports as reliable. It’s a pitty you can’t open the second source, is has great and reliable content. So the main issue is that it stated that she was Captain and the naming of the British Air Force? I’m not native English, so I can’t write it in high class English. As that is a problem, I can’t improve it to your satisfactions. I will rename the Air Force name and title of Captain because that might me wrong. Next to that, I don’t like your other option: it not mentioned she had a high rank and she was the first female at an sports federation SportsOlympic (talk) 20:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
I can find no such reference at WP:Sports but perhaps I am missing something, there has only been one discussion at the reliable source noticeboard WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 335#Olympedia, that being said it is not used to cite anything controversial. Whilst you have made a couple of small fixes, you missed some of the nuance in my comments above particularly those points listed in green. Further, the claim in the hook to be high ranked depends upon if the rank of Captain (which is clearly wrong) is supposed to be an Army or a Navy Captain, a Captain in the Army is not high ranked, Navy is getting up there. As it stands I feel this article is not at the standard required to be featured on the main page, but I am happy for others to take a look at it. Cavalryman (talk) 22:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC).
I have not looked at the article but would like to confirm that Olympedia is an authoritative source for Olympic bios. Schwede66 18:15, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Schwede66, many thanks, honestly Olympedia is the least of the issues here. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 22:39, 13 September 2021 (UTC).
It has been over a week and the nominator has made very little effort to rectify many of the issues raised above, nor have they supplied a QPQ (I was considering donating a QPQ if issues were rectified). They have received a TP notification [1] and been pinged above, so unfortunately I think this should be marked as ineligible and closed. Cavalryman (talk) 00:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC).
Hi Cavalryman, I've done considerable cleanup work on the article, finding published sources for a good bit of the material, and rewriting some parts based on the additions. This one should get a whole new review. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 06:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
  • It might need a new hook too:
@Mary Mark Ockerbloom: you sure have done some work on it, I will endeavour to provide a second review soon. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 08:52, 17 September 2021 (UTC).
General: Article is new enough and long enough

Policy compliance:

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: Yes

QPQ: No - /
Overall: There are still issues:

  • Sources:
  1. "Inger K. Frith". Olympedia. Retrieved 17 September 2021. checkY consensus here seems to be this is fairly reliable, it only used to cite name, DOB & DOD which is uncontroversial (but other issue below)
  2. "Danish WW2 Pilots | Inger Kristine Frith (née Pragholm) (1909 - 1981)". www.danishww2pilots.dk. checkY the clarification in Plannthin's book that she was in fact enlisted in the South African Air Force answers the rank (see South African military ranks#Air Force) and service number questions. See general note below.
  3. Plannthin, Mikkel (August 19, 2017). Britain's Victory, Denmark's Freedom: Danish Volunteers in Allied Air Forces During the Second World War. United Kingdom: Fonthill Media. Retrieved 17 September 2021. checkY
  4. Boehm, H. (1981). "In Memoriam" (PDF). FITA: Bulletin Officiel of the International Archery Federation30-31-32: 4–5. Retrieved 17 September 2021. checkY
  5. Sawyer, J. S. (1971). "RETIREMENT OF DR R. FRITH, O.B.E.". The Meteorological Magazine. 100 (1184). checkY
  6. "METEOROLOGICAL BRANCH" (PDF). Supplement to the London Gazette: 4882. 18 September 1951. Question? reliable as a primary source, but if it used it should have in-text attribution. Really this source is unnecessary as the second source above states everything here.
  7. Barker, Philip (5 March 2021). "Inger Frith blazed a trail for women in sports governance". Inside the Games. Retrieved 17 September 2021. checkY
  8. Rhode, Robert J. (1981). History of the Federation International De Tir A L Arc (PDF). Vol. I. Mahomet, ILL U.S.A. p. 326. Retrieved 17 September 2021.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) checkY
  9. Olympic Encyclopedia April 1985 Gymnastics and Archery. Comite International Olympique. 1985. pp. 50–56. Retrieved 17 September 2021. checkY
  10. "Mrs. Inger Frith" (PDF). Olympic Review. 1971. Retrieved 17 September 2021. ☒N there is still insufficient bibliographic information to meet WP:V - removed
  11. "Deaths: Frith, Inger Kristine Frith". The Times. October 26, 1981. p. 22. Question? reliable as a primary source, but again requiring in-text attribution, as in "According to the death notice". Death notices are what someone's family what published, not necessarily the truth. The information cited here is covered in other sources above. - reworded
  12. General note - more bibliographic information needs to be added to nearly all of the sources, particularly author (if available) and date of publication, but also publisher and location. If links break there is insufficient detail to meet WP:V and so the broken source and whatever is cited to it may be removed. - archive links added
  • Other problems:
  1. Inger Kristine Pragholm-Frith (23 January 1909 – 24 October 1981) The hyphenated surname Pragholm-Frith is not in any of the sources. - has been removed
  2. Inger Kristine Pragholm was born in Denmark on 23 January 1909. The cited source does not state she was born in Denmark, just that she was Danish and in 1940 she left Denmark for Paris. - resolved by changing citation
  3. After reaching South Africa she joined the South African Air Force. The cited source source makes no mention of the South African Air Force. - this has been resolved by changing citation
  4. The paragraph with the above sentence is very clunky and awkward to read, it requires copyediting. DONE
  5. Capt. Inger Kristine Frith (nee Pragholm) is recorded as being born on 23 January 1909, and having served (W/265733) in the South African Air Force (SAAF) from 23 October 1941 to 21 July 1945 as a meteorologist/forecaster. Extremely awkward, and leading with Captain gives the impression that she was subsequently demoted to Second Lieutenant in the following paragraph. - reworded
  6. She and her husband eventually settled in Crowthorne. Sticks out like a sore thumb, maybe move it into the later life section, as in "died in Crowthorne where she and Ronald had established their home."REMOVED
  7. In 1985, she was credited as "the main architect of archery's reintroduction to the Olympic programme in 1972." This quote needs in-text attribution. DONE
  • It's getting closer, with some of the issues raised in the first review have still not been resolved, and care needs to taken to ensure the correct source is used to cite certain pieces of information. I have struck ALT0 because we have now clarified that she was not "a high ranked pilot during World War II". Cavalryman (talk) 04:03, 20 September 2021 (UTC).
I have also struck my first ALT1 as she did not serve in the RAF but instead served in the SAAF, so have added ALT2, with no preference between it and ALT4. Cavalryman (talk) 00:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC). ALT numbers amended to reflect added ALT3 above. Cavalryman (talk) 21:46, 5 October 2021 (UTC).
Unfortunately, Cavalryman, there were two hooks labeled ALT3. I renamed the second one "ALT4", but you should specify whether you were referring to the first ALT3 or the one now called ALT4. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 21:08, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
@Mandarax: yes I can see the second ALT3 was added here, I have amended my comment accordingly. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 21:46, 5 October 2021 (UTC).
I have copy-edited the article. She served in both the Women's RAF and the SAAF, but I am not sure that the article needs to be held up over debates about her wartime service. I have proposed an alternative that just focuses on her role in sports. The article is worth including in DYK, so I am happy to step in a help get it finished. The sources seem credible to me. Are there other issues left? PMCH2 (talk) 22:46, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Respectfully, not all of the issues raised in the above review have been addressed. Further, then sent to Cairo where she transferred from the SAAF to Great Britain's Women's Royal Air Force, receiving a commission contradicts the preceding paragraph that says she served ... in the South African Air Force (SAAF) from 23 October 1941 to 21 July 1945 and the fact that to have been a Second Lieutenant she must already have been a commissioned officer. Cavalryman (talk) 12:49, 27 September 2021 (UTC).
I have added archive links for sources that don't have authors. I removed the one link that didn't work. Others have appropriate details. I have replied above to the concerns I have addressed. I removed the phrase about the commission. I have done my best to address all the issues. PMCH2 (talk) 03:26, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
@PMCH2: when I get a chance I will have another detailed look. At a cursory glance, there is still plenty of room to add more bibliographic information to the citations, for instance the www.danishww2pilots.dk source should be:
Plannthin, Mikkel (12 September 2010). "Inger Kristine Frith (née Pragholm)". Danish WW2 Pilots. Archived from the original on 31 August 2021. Retrieved 29 August 2021.
I will look at the rest soon. Also, a QPQ still has not been provided. Cavalryman (talk) 21:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC).
I haven't seen a DYK be scrutinized this closely before in regards to citations. I stepped in to try to help, but it's not my article, and I have spent as much time as I can. You seem to have a very high bar. I don't have a DYK credit to donate. 22:57, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
I am sorry you think I am being overly harsh, but I think it is plain sloppy not including proper attribution, and the with the example above I think the fact that the same author is responsible for two cited sources is relevant. I initially reviewed the article because I thought the subject was interesting and worthy of some time in the main page sun. But I too have found it frustrating, I have conducted two complete reviews and even then my findings have not been acted upon, and further still there has been a stunningly consistent lack of attention to detail. I will now do some editing of the article to bring it up to a standard I believe is required. Cavalryman (talk) 01:28, 8 October 2021 (UTC).
Thanks for your edits on the article. It reads better and I can see you have cleaned up the sources. I will do a QPQ this weekend, so we can get this over the line.PMCH2 (talk) 12:41, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Many thanks. If you cannot I will try to do one. I also intend to email World Archery to see if we can get a photo. Regards, Cavalryman (talk) 13:13, 10 October 2021 (UTC).
I have reviewed Kennin Rebellion for DYK. Thanks for chasing down a photo - that would be great.PMCH2 (talk) 14:03, 12 October 2021 (UTC)
Many thanks. Re photo I have been had correspondence with World Archery and they have said we can use the 1961 photo in this article, I am just trying to get them to confirm what license they are happy to release it under.
Given I am now responsible for over 70% of the text [2], should a fresh reviewer have a look at this? Cavalryman (talk) 22:10, 12 October 2021 (UTC).
After some initial positive correspondence World Archery not responded about licenses for almost a week. I will send one more email but am not holding my breath that a photo will be released. Cavalryman (talk) 22:29, 17 October 2021 (UTC).
  • yeah, I think we're going to need a new reviewer on this one. Cavalryman, given your contributions to getting this article to DYK, I've added you to the credits section. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 20:04, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
  • As best I can tell, the major issues concerning sourcing and attribution have been addressed, and this article seems ready for the main page. Thanks to everyone who contributed to make this work. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 04:54, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron: if a photo is released I will ping you to see if you are happy for it to be added to the nomination. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 05:09, 20 October 2021 (UTC).
Re photo ... the person I have been corresponding with at World Archery needs to return to the office to confirm their ownership status of this picture, due to covid that cannot occur before 4th November. I request this be held off until then. Cavalryman (talk) 09:50, 20 October 2021 (UTC).
@Cavalryman: happy to wait. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 20:23, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
Any updates on the image? If we waiting just for the image, I'll suggest to let this nomination run without an image. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 08:03, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
As said above I do not expect any word before the 4th of November. If there is a chronic shortage of articles for DYK then by all means run this, but it would be a shame to potentially deny this most capable woman a face when she is featured for the sake of a week. Cavalryman (talk) 10:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC).
There is no shortage of hooks on DYK. I was just concerned about how backlogged this particular nomination is. If it is worth waiting for the image, no issues then. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 10:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
I have just received this in an email from World Archery:

I checked last Thursday in our old history books, but there is no mention of photographer there.
However, I'm on another track that was given to me by the author of another book on the history of our federation, but I'll have to check it out this Thursday when I'm again in the office.
Things are in progress, and I should be able to give you some good news by next week!

If everyone is happy to wait a few more days hopefully we’ll have a photo. Cavalryman (talk) 08:07, 8 November 2021 (UTC).
  • theleekycauldron, I'm trying to remember. Why don't you ask at WT:DYK and see whether there are any recollections about past cases, or strong opinions either way. Sorry I can't be more definitive. On the matter of promoting, the nomination will be three months old on December 2, and should have been promoted prior to then. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:30, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Apologies, I was going to give an update this morning (Australian time). I had an email overnight from World Archery wanting to clarify the process of uploading a picture, I wouldn’t mind betting there will be an email with photo attached in the inbox at permissions@wikimedia.org tomorrow Swiss time. I agree, if there is no image within a week promote it, this has been a lengthy process. Cavalryman (talk) 06:03, 17 November 2021 (UTC).
@Cavalryman: a week has passed; marking for approval without image. If an image is found between now and when this is promoted, feel free to ping me! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 08:46, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
You have beaten me to it, yes there is still no picture so let’s proceed. No wonder it took so long for archery to return to the Olympics!!! If a picture does materialise I will do, thanks. Cavalryman (talk) 08:52, 24 November 2021 (UTC).
All right then, promoting ALT3 to Prep 5 – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 12:36, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
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