Template:Did you know nominations/Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 17:30, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
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Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols
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Jeroboam's hand "shrivelled up"
- ... that Fragonard won the Prix de Rome for painting with Jeroboam Sacrificing to Idols (detail pictured) in 1752, when only 20 years old? Rosenberg, Pierre, Fragonard, exhibition catalogue, 1988: Galeries Nationales Du Grand Palais, Paris, September 24, 1987 – January 4, 1988, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, February 2 – May 8, 1988, online
5x expanded by Johnbod (talk). Self-nominated at 22:36, 20 February 2021 (UTC).
This article is new enough and long enough. The image is in the public domain, the hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright issues. Just waiting for the QPQ. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:07, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. This is good to go. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:01, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Johnbod: The article says that "he no doubt had begun painting it by his 20th birthday on 4 April", but I can't find that in the cited source. Am I missing something, or is this not supported? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:04, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- This isn't a DYK point, but the submission date was well before the announcement of the prizes on 26 August, and this is a large, complex and highly worked painting that would have taken several months. So there is "no doubt". Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
- Johnbod, I don't see how there can be "no doubt". It may be extremely likely, but to put such a certainty in Wikipedia's voice without it being verifiable in a source renders it WP:OR. It seems to me that this needs to be addressed prior to the article being promoted. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:43, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
- Rather perversely, the function of the phrase "no doubt" in English is to express that there is less than full certainty, and a degree of assumption in the statement that follows. If there was "certainty" the phrase would be omitted. So it seems fine to me (as well as nothing to do with DYK) but I'm open to a rephrase. Johnbod (talk) 17:08, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
- Johnbod, would you be amenable to changing "It won him the highly prestigious Prix de Rome for painting on 26 August 1752, and he no doubt had begun painting it by his 20th birthday on 4 April" to "It won him the highly prestigious Prix de Rome for painting on 26 August 1752, when aged only 21" or something similar? That would eliminate BlueMoonset's concern, and still show how young he was. MeegsC (talk) 13:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- Johnbod, with further perversity, "no doubt" has two meanings according to Webster's: "undoubtedly" and "doubtless" on one side (without any doubt, or with certainty), and "probably"—it gives the certitude definition first. So to avoid any ambiguity here, since many (like me) will go with the first meaning, I believe it shouldn't be used in this context, and do not concur with
If there was "certainty" the phrase would be omitted
as a conclusion that a reasonable reader would make—I took it as extra clarity rather than any lack of certainty. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:53, 23 March 2021 (UTC)- Well, what do suggest then? Johnbod (talk) 19:19, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
- Johnbod, absent a reliable source making the statement that he had definitely or likely started it prior to April 4—which Rosenberg doesn't appear to say, based on the comment earlier (I can't view page 52 of the book, unfortunately)—I don't see how WP:OR allows anything more than him winning the prize when he was 20 years old, which is nevertheless a significant accomplishment. I've changed the article accordingly. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:39, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth, I was wondering whether you could take a look at the changes, and give the article another tick if it's ready. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you. This is now good to go. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:08, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth, I was wondering whether you could take a look at the changes, and give the article another tick if it's ready. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:24, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
- Johnbod, absent a reliable source making the statement that he had definitely or likely started it prior to April 4—which Rosenberg doesn't appear to say, based on the comment earlier (I can't view page 52 of the book, unfortunately)—I don't see how WP:OR allows anything more than him winning the prize when he was 20 years old, which is nevertheless a significant accomplishment. I've changed the article accordingly. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:39, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- Well, what do suggest then? Johnbod (talk) 19:19, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
- Johnbod, would you be amenable to changing "It won him the highly prestigious Prix de Rome for painting on 26 August 1752, and he no doubt had begun painting it by his 20th birthday on 4 April" to "It won him the highly prestigious Prix de Rome for painting on 26 August 1752, when aged only 21" or something similar? That would eliminate BlueMoonset's concern, and still show how young he was. MeegsC (talk) 13:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- Rather perversely, the function of the phrase "no doubt" in English is to express that there is less than full certainty, and a degree of assumption in the statement that follows. If there was "certainty" the phrase would be omitted. So it seems fine to me (as well as nothing to do with DYK) but I'm open to a rephrase. Johnbod (talk) 17:08, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
- This isn't a DYK point, but the submission date was well before the announcement of the prizes on 26 August, and this is a large, complex and highly worked painting that would have taken several months. So there is "no doubt". Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 14 March 2021 (UTC)