- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 00:49, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
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Julia Bauer
... that the coloratura soprano Julia Bauer portrayed, according to reviews, the Forest Bird with bird-like movements, Lulu like a piece of art, and the 12-year old Maria in Love and Other Demons with both a child-like and angelic voice? Source: several
- Reviewed: Diocalandra frumenti
- Comment: She is small, so can convince in roles that others could not tackle. Much more could be said, such as that the Forest Bird is normally not seen at all, that Lulu is often required to use speaking voice, and that the 12-year old is subjected to exorcism. Try if you like.
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:16, 7 December 2019 (UTC).
It seems like the hook is not what the article says. For example, the hook says that she portrayed Lulu like a piece (work) of art, implying a supreme artistic performance, while the article says that the portrayal was like something akin to an art work, as opposed to real life. This is a subtle but significant difference. The part about the Forest Bird is not clear, and in general I think the hook is not well-worded—it takes a few reads to understand what it's actually saying. However, beyond the wording and sources, I think quoting (or paraphrasing) reviews is not something that should be done for DYK. Reviews such as this one include words to avoid and might therefore not be considered neutral per DYK guidelines. DYKs are more about facts, so I would suggest to use a completely different hook. Other requirements seem generally OK, as far as I can tell. —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:05, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
- How does "piece of art" imply her artistry? Can you word it better? We could drop Lulu (but she is relatively well known), or drop the "art"-thing. English is not my first language, help is welcome. We could stick with the roles which are unusual enough, but the way she does them is much more lively than that would be. Many critics wrote about about the bird-like movements, and I saw them myself, - it's not pov, and normally you don't see that character not at all. - Not many adult singers can play a 12-year-old convincingly. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
- If a source can be found on what her year of birth is, I think that it might be a good idea to try a hook about her, as an adult, playing a 12-year old. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:01, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- Traditionally, some opera singers don't want to give away their year of birth. There's no doubt that she is adult. We had one such hook like it, see Talk:Anne Sharp. The Forest Bird, however, is more recent, and covered in more sources, and more unusual, - that you see the creature at all, I mean. In most stagings, you just hear a voice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- If a source can be found on what her year of birth is, I think that it might be a good idea to try a hook about her, as an adult, playing a 12-year old. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:01, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
- How does "piece of art" imply her artistry? Can you word it better? We could drop Lulu (but she is relatively well known), or drop the "art"-thing. English is not my first language, help is welcome. We could stick with the roles which are unusual enough, but the way she does them is much more lively than that would be. Many critics wrote about about the bird-like movements, and I saw them myself, - it's not pov, and normally you don't see that character not at all. - Not many adult singers can play a 12-year-old convincingly. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
A full review is still needed as there have been no comments here since December. Courtesy ping to the original reviewer Ynhockey. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:05, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, sorry I don't really have a better hook suggestion for this article. However, my comments about the original hook still stand—it should not be used for DYK. Suggestions for new hooks are welcome, or if someone wants to expand the article with new information. —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:38, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: As it appears that there are significant objections to the original hook, a new one will have to be proposed. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 14:14, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, sorry I don't really have a better hook suggestion for this article. However, my comments about the original hook still stand—it should not be used for DYK. Suggestions for new hooks are welcome, or if someone wants to expand the article with new information. —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:38, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- I had actually added some possibilities today, but I think I got an edit conflict and didn't realize it. I'll try to recreate my suggestions. @Gerda Arendt: what do you think about these hooks? The first one may have the same problem as the previous one in that it refers to positive reviews. However, I read through all the reviews I could find and they were positive, so maybe that is OK? The second one is more "just the facts." I thought your statement was interesting about the bird character not usually appearing or the fact that she's small allowing her to play a different variety of roles. However, I didn't see that in the Wikipedia article, and I can't read German. Are there any sources that talk about these features that could be added? QuakerSquirrel (talk) 17:08, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- Alt Hook 1:
... that when the coloratura soprano Julia Bauer made her debut at the Lausanne Opera she was described as a "Lakmé to remember" and as a "high class Lakmé"? Source: une Lakmé de grande classe and Julia Bauer est sans conteste une Lakmé à retenir - Alt Hook 2:
... that the coloratura soprano Julia Bauer has played lead roles in opera houses across Europe, including Lulu at the Aalto Theatre and Lakmé at the Lausanne Opera? Source: several- Thank you for the offers, but sorry, "high-class" says nothing specific about her, and "has played lead roles ... " does not tell us what roles, which is the one thing characteristic of opera singers. The three mentioned in the original would say much more about her than this. Focus on what I saw, and remember:
- ALT3: ... that the coloratura soprano Julia Bauer played five roles in Der Ring in Minden, including the Forest Bird in Siegfried on stage with bird-like movements?
- Repeating, normally you don't see the Bird at all, you just hear a voice behind the scene, - to see it in action is unusual. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:27, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- I would love to include the fact that you don't normally see the bird at all, but I can't find a reliable source that says that. I found a self-published book, but I don't think I can use that as a source on Wikipedia. At any rate, I suggest the following rewording of ALT3 so it flows well. QuakerSquirrel (talk) 13:11, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
- ALT 4: ... that the coloratura soprano Julia Bauer played five roles in Der Ring in Minden, including her on-stage portrayal of the Forest Bird in Siegfried? Source: Review; also see credits at Der Ring in Minden
- I like ALT4 but see no reason to strike ALT3. You don't need any source for "not on stage", just the role list which says "Stimme des Waldvogels" (Voice of the Forest Bird"), also that was not meant to be included in the hook, only to explain that it is unusual. In the article, I replaced your link by this which mentions her. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:29, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
- Alt Hook 1:
QuakerSquirrel (talk) 14:36, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
- sorry, you can't approve your "own" hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:57, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm somewhat new to this & haven't run into it before. I've had hooks changed after the approval process, so I thought here I was just saying it's good to go to the next step & either of these hooks (Hook 3 or 4) is OK. So whenever an initial reviewer suggests a hook they then can't approve the DYK? QuakerSquirrel (talk) 15:15, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
- No problem to be new ;) - Someone who created a hook should not also approve it, for obvious reasons. You could approve ALT3 which I created, but for ALT4 which flows better we need someone else, which will hopefully happen. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:19, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Happy to give approval to ALT4, having checked the sourcing, which I do think reads better than ALT3, and concur with QuakerSquirrel's approval of ALT3. I did correct the fifth role in the article from "First Norne" to "Third Norn", as the sources were agreed she was Third. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:37, 16 February 2020 (UTC)