- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:18, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
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Kai Bumann
... that the German conductor Kai Bumann began his tenure as musical director of the Warsaw Chamber Opera with Verdi's Falstaff and toured with the company to Japan twice?Source: several- Reviewed: List of songs recorded by Kyla
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 22:14, 9 June 2022 (UTC).
- Reviewing. FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 11:48, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
New enough, long enough. Other basic DYK nom criteria seem to check out. There is an image over at commons which I was just about to say would go well with this but uncertain about its copyright status now. Hook is interesting and cited inline. QPQ done. gtg. FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 13:04, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, and please hold on while I'll ask GRuban about the image licensing and possible cropping a bit, and straightening. It's nice but who is in position to take such a shot? The date can't be the date of taking it, just uploading. For the article, I'll just take it for now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Bad news about the photo, I'm afraid. First, as Gerda observes, this is clearly a professional quality image, taken from a great angle, which is wonderful, but from that I'd expect it to belong to a professional photographer and/or someone associated with the conductor or their orchestra, not an anonymous editor. Second, the uploader's history isn't great: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lorak988 is covered with red deletion notices. Now image copyright is complex - anyone who uploads images from more than one source is almost certain to get their images challenged, I've got a number of those on my talk page myself, there are a number of images that well intentioned reasonably educated editors can disagree about the copyright status of. But the fact that not one of them was upheld (stayed blue links) is worrisome; he's only got 4 images that weren't challenged, he's had more than that deleted; and I looked at a few of the discussions, and he didn't even try to defend them. So I did an image search for the image, and besides different Wikipedias, I found it used in two places, https://www.ch-cultura.ch/de/archiv/musik-und-tanz/kai-bumann-chefdirigent-des-schweizer-jugendsinfonieorchesters-ist-gestorben where it says "Foto: © Sandra Krebs, https://sjso.ch/", and https://sjso.ch/ itself, where it says (automatic translation only, I'm afraid, my German is keine) "Since 1998, Mr. Bumann has been chief conductor of the SJSO." That seems to match the "someone associated with his orchestra" hypothesis. I think I'm going to nominate the image for deletion, and unless the uploader shows up and explains that's he's actually the official photographer of the SJSO or some other official thereof, I think it's going to get deleted. --GRuban (talk) 18:42, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, sadly as expected. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:03, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thinking further: could be that the photographer passed rights to the orchestra, and orchestra would be willing to set it free, in order to show their former conductor in the best light? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:09, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- You can certainly ask. The SJSO contact page seems to be https://sjso.ch/kontakt/ If I were writing, I'd write:
- Bad news about the photo, I'm afraid. First, as Gerda observes, this is clearly a professional quality image, taken from a great angle, which is wonderful, but from that I'd expect it to belong to a professional photographer and/or someone associated with the conductor or their orchestra, not an anonymous editor. Second, the uploader's history isn't great: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lorak988 is covered with red deletion notices. Now image copyright is complex - anyone who uploads images from more than one source is almost certain to get their images challenged, I've got a number of those on my talk page myself, there are a number of images that well intentioned reasonably educated editors can disagree about the copyright status of. But the fact that not one of them was upheld (stayed blue links) is worrisome; he's only got 4 images that weren't challenged, he's had more than that deleted; and I looked at a few of the discussions, and he didn't even try to defend them. So I did an image search for the image, and besides different Wikipedias, I found it used in two places, https://www.ch-cultura.ch/de/archiv/musik-und-tanz/kai-bumann-chefdirigent-des-schweizer-jugendsinfonieorchesters-ist-gestorben where it says "Foto: © Sandra Krebs, https://sjso.ch/", and https://sjso.ch/ itself, where it says (automatic translation only, I'm afraid, my German is keine) "Since 1998, Mr. Bumann has been chief conductor of the SJSO." That seems to match the "someone associated with his orchestra" hypothesis. I think I'm going to nominate the image for deletion, and unless the uploader shows up and explains that's he's actually the official photographer of the SJSO or some other official thereof, I think it's going to get deleted. --GRuban (talk) 18:42, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, and please hold on while I'll ask GRuban about the image licensing and possible cropping a bit, and straightening. It's nice but who is in position to take such a shot? The date can't be the date of taking it, just uploading. For the article, I'll just take it for now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
Hello, I'm a volunteer editor for Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia. I am working on an article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Bumann, that needs a free licensed image, an image free for everyone to reuse and edit, like the rest of the Wikipedia. Would you be able to release your excellent image of Kai Bumann at https://sjso.ch/? If you put "Released under https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/deed.de" next to it on https://sjso.ch/, we could use it. Thank you!
(My email address)
- I'd try to write it in German if possible, except I don't write German - but you do! You could also direct them to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikimedia_VRT_release_generator which they could fill out and send to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org, but that can take a few emails back and forth, as VRT might require that they get the photographer to send the email, or that they photocopy their contract, or their drivers' licenses, or do twenty push-ups, or find a shrubbery, or whatever else the responding VRT person feels like.
- When I do this sort of thing, I get a success rate of maybe 20% - which isn't great, but isn't 0. --GRuban (talk) 19:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. If only I wasn't so overwhelmed with Recent deaths articles, yesterday Richard Taruskin, today Peter Brook. I'll see. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt & GRuban, thank you for discussing the image, I've learnt something new. Would you like to hold the nomination a little longer for the image? Or we can proceed with the imageless version of the article. FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 04:32, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reminder! I haven't asked yet, and even if successful, it might not be free for the Main page, and doesn't picture him conducting opera. I took one of a conductor yesterday, - much easier. His work made us happy! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:54, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- the hook is still good to go. FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 04:50, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reminder! I haven't asked yet, and even if successful, it might not be free for the Main page, and doesn't picture him conducting opera. I took one of a conductor yesterday, - much easier. His work made us happy! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:54, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. If only I wasn't so overwhelmed with Recent deaths articles, yesterday Richard Taruskin, today Peter Brook. I'll see. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- This should have been reopened back on 21 July when it was removed from Queue 2 due to hook issues. I have struck the original hook above due to those issues, and point everyone to the archived discussion at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 187#Kai Bumann, where various hook proposals were made and no final decision made. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:09, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- This hook was proposed during the discussion, and was also the originally promoted hook until it was pulled. Out of transparency I am mentioning it here again.
- ALT1 ... that German conductor Kai Bumann participated in two tours of Japan with the Warsaw Chamber Opera during his tenure as music director?
- Courtesy ping to the original reviewer FacetsOfNonStickPans. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- When I write about someone making music, I like to mention music. You ignore that wish, again. What can I do? That a conductor tours to Japan twice is no big deal, really, but that a German conductor does it with a complete Polish opera troupe, that's news, twice. I see readers leaving already when Japan is mentioned. Same facts:
- ALT1a: ... that the German conductor Kai Bumann was music director of the Warsaw Chamber Opera, and toured Japan with the company twice? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:06, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- This hook was proposed during the discussion, and was also the originally promoted hook until it was pulled. Out of transparency I am mentioning it here again.
Thank you for the courtesy ping. Here is a summary of what's happened with this nomination on the basis of which a decision needs to be taken.
- Following talk over at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 187 (sections #Operatic hooks and #Kai Bumann), a number of alternate hooks have been suggested/discussed/proposed. Listing them for summary clarity:
- ALT0: ... above/cut
- ALT1: ... that German conductor Kai Bumann participated in two tours of Japan with the Warsaw Chamber Opera during his tenure as music director?
- ALT1a: ... that the German conductor Kai Bumann was music director of the Warsaw Chamber Opera, and toured Japan with the company twice?
- ALTc: ... that German conductor Kai Bumann participated in two tours of Japan with the Warsaw Chamber Opera?
- ALTd: ... that Kai Bumann, music director of the Warsaw Chamber Opera, conducted the company on two tours of Japan?
- ALT3: ... that the German conductor Kai Bumann began his tenure as musical director of the Warsaw Chamber Opera with Verdi's last opera Falstaff?
- ALT4: ... that the German conductor Kai Bumann was musical director of the Warsaw Chamber Opera and a Swiss youth orchestra at the same time?
- ALT5: ... that in 2021, the German conductor Kai Bumann was named Professor of Art by Polish President Andrzej Duda?
- ALT6: ... that the German conductor Kai Bumann had many ties to Polish cultural life, and in 2018 conducted the world premiere of one of Krzysztof Penderecki's last works?
- Preference should be given to ALT1 and ALT1a when selecting a hook as per the most recent hooks listed above.
- Possibility of a double article hook was raised but not taken forward.
- While there has been some mention of closing this nomination, I don't see a need as of now.
- Extreme case, if a decision can't be made this DYK nomination can be closed with a clean conscience keeping in mind supplementary rule D1 "Items that have been on DYK before are ineligible" ... so someday in the future when this becomes a GA, it can be nominated again. Hopefully, there may then be enough content to allow this.
I am making a few small edits to the page. I request a new reviewer take over (checking inline sourcing of the chosen hooks again). FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 05:48, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the diligent list of hooks. What happened thereafter was that I wrote - as requested - the article about that work by Penderecki, Lacrimosa No. 2. It's not a major work, and not long enough to make a double hook. I don't like the hooks that say "participated" because that's too little when he was the leader (1, c, d,). I don't like only some Polish award which promotes the giver but doesn't say for what (5). I don't like a pale "many ties" when we can say precisely which chamber opera in the capital city (6). But who would listen to me? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:25, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- With regard to the double hook I also meant with Swiss Youth Symphony Orchestra. FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 06:32, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think I better write that article and make it a single hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:47, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- With regard to the double hook I also meant with Swiss Youth Symphony Orchestra. FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 06:32, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Offering a second review. Looks like at this stage you only need to finalise the hook. (FYI the rest of the article looks fine to me). I agree with avoiding the word 'participated'. I like ALT3 the most because some of the other facts aren't quite as interesting. E.g. I don't know what a Presidentially-prescribed 'Professor of Art' is so the title is meaningless to me. And touring Japan or having ties to Polish life also aren't super interesting. As is a musical director being in an opera and orchestra at the same time. The two commas in ALTd is also a bit distracting. Hope this helps!--Coin945 (talk) 08:27, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not really sure if ALT3 is the best option. Based on the discussion linked above Gatoclass had reservations about the Falstaff hook angle and, while I won't oppose if it's promoted, I feel that the hook angle mentioned is relatively weak to those who have less familiarity with opera music. Personally I think ALT4 or ALT5 are better hooks, but ultimately I think it's better for an editor previously uninvolved in this discussion or the previous WT:DYK discussions to make the final choice. Having said that, if ALT3 is the chosen hook, I won't oppose. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:26, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know what makes you think of ALT3. You (or someone else) could just approve ALT1a for a compromise. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- I guess we can go with ALT1a then. Gerda suggested it above, and its hook fact appears to be the preference of Facets. Gatoclass was also open to it during the WT:DYK discussion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:31, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know what makes you think of ALT3. You (or someone else) could just approve ALT1a for a compromise. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not really sure if ALT3 is the best option. Based on the discussion linked above Gatoclass had reservations about the Falstaff hook angle and, while I won't oppose if it's promoted, I feel that the hook angle mentioned is relatively weak to those who have less familiarity with opera music. Personally I think ALT4 or ALT5 are better hooks, but ultimately I think it's better for an editor previously uninvolved in this discussion or the previous WT:DYK discussions to make the final choice. Having said that, if ALT3 is the chosen hook, I won't oppose. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:26, 21 August 2022 (UTC)