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Template:Did you know nominations/Karl Maria Zwißler

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by FITINDIA 01:08, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

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Karl Maria Zwißler

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:42, 23 January 2018 (UTC).

  • The article is new and long enough and meets core policies and guidelines. The hook is short enough and is interesting. The QPQ is complete. I have one small concern in the wording of the hook. In particular, "conducted in Mainz" sounds strange. I'd be willing to approve as is, but think the wording is a bit clumsy, could you reword so it reads more smoothly? Smmurphy(Talk) 16:47, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
What do you suggest? I tried to be short, so avoided Staatstheater, and his title, wouldn't be sure which anyway, because no precise date is given. English is no my first language, need help ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
I agree, for length you have to decide between using his title and home or listing famous works he conducted. How about starting with something like: "... that Mainz conductor Karl Maria Zwißler presented major [...]" Smmurphy(Talk) 17:20, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
It's not his home, - the link goes (should have gone but I missed it) to the Staatstheater (= place of work and performance), and I don't think we can use that like an adjective ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:26, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
I think it flows more smoothly if you use the formulation in the sources, namely "Mainz's Karl Maria Zwißler". Also, is there any reason you say "after 1933" and not "between 1933 and 1938"? Smmurphy(Talk) 14:53, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
Try to speak "Mainz's" ;) - Yes, firstly because many will remember that 1933 is the year when Hitler came to power, secondly because it's shorter, thirdly because: what does 1938 add? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:56, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
"Mainz's" is, I think, easy with an English "z" (as opposed to a German "ts" pronunciation, where I can see it would be weird). Looking it up, it seems the correct way to pronounce Mainz in English is with a German-style "ts", so I take your point. Regarding the 1938, I'm not terribly tied to it one way or another. I'm still stuck on the flow. I think the modifier, "in Mainz", shouldn't go between the verb, "conducted", and the object, "major works by Igor Stravinsky". What about just throwing "in Mainz" to the end, after 1933 and before the comma?
If you don't know Germany, 1933 means nothing. Switch it all?
ALT1: ... that in Mainz after 1933, Karl Maria Zwißler conducted major works by Igor Stravinsky, including a production of the ballet The Firebird, and the German premiere of Dumbarton Oaks?
  • Great, I have a slight preference for Alt1, but I'm happy to defer as there isn't a substantive difference. Smmurphy(Talk) 19:50, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, striking the other to make life easier for the prep builder. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote ALT1, but I don't understand the date in the hook. The article states: In 1933, he became Erster Kapellmeister at the Frankfurt Opera, and two years later musical director. A year later, he was in Mainz Generalmusikdirektor and Hofkapellmeister of the Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Mainz at the Staatstheater Mainz. That would seem to me that he started in Mainz in 1936. Please clarify from the source. Yoninah (talk) 01:22, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
When I add 1 to 1933, I get to 1934, and that is "after 1933". See the discussion above, 1933 short for "Hitler, Stravinsky proclaimed degenerate musician", for those readers who connect things, and no harm for others. We might say "in the 1930s", but that would be not precise for the beginning - which was not before 1934 - nor for the end - which could be in the early 1940s, - unfortunately the source gives no dates for these performances. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:48, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Connecting the date with Mainz matches the source given for the hook (Deutsche Leitkultur Musik?[2]), but one of the other sources says he wasn't in Mainz until 1936 [3]. Removing "in Mainz" or switching to "in Mainz and Frankfurt" reconciles things a bit, no? Smmurphy(Talk) 13:26, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
He didn't do it in Frankfurt, as the "Mainz's" ref says. We could say "in Germany", instead, because wherever in Germany, it was brave. However, he was in Mainz for the longest time of his career, that's why I'd like to have that. I sang under his direction on that stage, once, and unforgotten. He could barely move, conducted sitting with minimal gestures, and said "If I had a say you'd sing in white." Ein deutsches Requiem on a Good Friday, his last concert and he knew it, in the 1980s. Perhaps I'll find the program. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:47, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good; if you don't mind, add an "in Germany" Alt2. I see both points and think Yoninah's concern is a good one. I should have raised it in my initial review. Smmurphy(Talk) 15:26, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
ALT2: ... that in Germany after 1933, Karl Maria Zwißler conducted major works by Igor Stravinsky, including a production of the ballet The Firebird, and the German premiere of Dumbarton Oaks? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:45, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • @Yoninah: Thanks for catching this issue. What do you think of Alt2? I understand the Gerda Arendt's preference for Alt1 (some of which is a personal preference) but agree with your concerns and suggest promoting Alt2. Smmurphy(Talk) 16:13, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • @Smmurphy: it seems there's some hint in the words "after 1933" that I'm not getting. Was he Jewish and it was dangerous for him to work there? The article doesn't say. It doesn't make sense to say "in Germany after 1933" because he was born in Germany and didn't seem to leave there until his death. I suggest starting the hook with "In the 1930s..." Yoninah (talk) 21:22, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree that this isn't clearly spelled out. In 1938, Stravinsky's music was designated Entartete Musik/Entartete Kunst by the Nazis, which came into power in 1933. Entartete Kunst, or degenerate art, was generally suppressed, although in some cases it was tolerated and Stravinski challenged his addition to the list. The implication for Zwißler is that performing Stravinsky was a subversive act. From the artistic view, Zwißler's performances and premiers are themselves important. From a political view, Zwißler's presenting Stravinsky in Germany after 1933 was important. So "in Germany in 1933" could be replaced with "in Nazi Germany", and the modifier, "banned composer" added to Igor Stravinski. If I can add an ALT3, what about: "...that in Nazi Germany, Karl Maria Zwißler conducted major works by banned composer Igor Stravinsky, including a production of the ballet The Firebird, and the German premiere of Dumbarton Oaks." One issue is that Zwißler's performances of Stravinski were before Stravinski was added to the list of degenerate art, so I think my Alt might be too strongly worded. Smmurphy(Talk) 21:40, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
  • @Smmurphy: I think you're on the right track. While music aficionados might click on the musical hook, saying something about him performing banned works will attract a broader audience. Could you work in "future banned composer" somehow? Yoninah (talk) 23:32, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
@Yoninah and Gerda Arendt: I'm adding an ALT3, what do you think? Yoninah, even if you and I like it, I think we should let Gerda Arendt comment before accepting/promoting it. Gerda Arendt, since I've written it, I don't think I can approve it. I'm not sure if Yoninah can or if we have to wait for another third party. But if you have any modifications, go ahead and make them and ping Yoninah when/if you are happy with it. Smmurphy(Talk) 23:40, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
Fine with me, but how about Stravinsky first then "regarded"? Certainly more clicks with Nazi Germany. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:01, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
I assume I'm not new, in this context? Smmurphy(Talk) 00:37, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
  • @Smmurphy: well, your ALT3 started us off on this new track... Yoninah (talk) 00:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
for ALT4a. Drmies (talk) 22:20, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
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