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Template:Did you know nominations/Mary Gordon (prison inspector)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:48, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Mary Gordon (prison inspector)

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  • ... that Mary Gordon was the first British female prison inspector? Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link] the source, or cite it briefly without using citation templates)
    • ALT1:... that Mary Gordon, the first British female prison inspector, advocated seeking prisoners' views on what would prevent reoffending? Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link] the source, or cite it briefly without using citation templates)

Created by Cowlibob (talk). Self-nominated at 19:27, 18 December 2019 (UTC).

  • @Cowlibob: I am reviewing this article, but there is an obvious typo In March 2018, Gordon was appointed as a prison inspector. that needs to be corrected. I presume from the lede that this is supposed to be March 1908? I am curious as to whether the novel she wrote about a prisoner inspired her to become a prison inspector, or whether she already had witnessed some aspect of prison that inspired both. Also note that your phrase "fictional novel" is redundant – do you mean historical novel or contemporary novel or something like that? Wasted Time R (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
@Wasted Time R: Fixed the typo and removed fictional. It would be interesting to know why she became a prison inspector however that early period of her life is obscure so it is hard to tell. All that I could find is that she worked in Harley Street as a doctor before she was appointed to the role. Cowlibob (talk) 19:41, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
Understood about lack of information. As for the review, article creation date versus filing date is good, article length is good, article sourcing and neutrality are fine and from sources I've looked at I see no suggestion of copyvio. QPQ done (a rules rejection). I prefer ALT1 over the base hook, as it has more substance and is not just a 'first' (which is something of a DYK cliché at this point). Hook length and neutrality both okay and sourcing verified.
In terms of suggestions for another hook, the most interesting thing I saw from looking over the pages in the Oakley book is actually not in the article – it's the p. 204 'prisoner who wanted to live as a man' who Gordon gave men's clothes to and a ticket to the mines in South Wales. (It's tempting to couple that with the p. 206 account of how Virginia Woolf criticized Gordon's apparently mannish appearance, but maybe such explorations are better left to gender studies scholars.) So a hook might be:
ALT2: ... that Mary Gordon, the first British female prison inspector, kept one released prisoner from reoffending by helping satisfy that woman's desire to live as a man?
ALT3: ... that Mary Gordon, the first British female prison inspector, once forestalled recidivism by supplying men's clothes and train fare to the South Wales mines to a woman who wanted to live as a man?
Let me know what you think. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
I've recently been sent some journal articles about Gordon which may provide some further information for the above. It is an interesting story that I wanted to incorporate, I'll see if I can in a sensitive way and let you know. Cowlibob (talk) 10:43, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
@Wasted Time R: I've added in the above and some new info to the early life section based on the journal articles. The story is actually from pages 71 and 72 from her book Penal Discipline where it is said that "she suffered many vicissitudes including a mental attack, but came to prison very little in after years" so it didn't quite stop her reoffending just reduced the frequency. My preference would be ALT3. How about this a slight tweak of it?
ALT3a: ... that Mary Gordon, the first British female prison inspector, once forestalled recidivism by supplying men's clothes, and a train fare to South Wales to a woman who wanted to live as a man? Cowlibob (talk) 15:43, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
@Cowlibob: The article is definitely better now, and I am okay with ALT3a. However it seems to me that you should include what the newly added Deborah Cheney journal article states, that Gordon's feminist and suffragist associations resulted in the marginalization of her work and of Penal Discipline, to the extent that she became little remembered (which hopefully this WP article will help correct, at least a little). And it seems odd to include a brief mention of Virginia Woolf as a publisher of Gordon's book in 1936, and to cite the newly added Martin Ferguson Smith article in several places, but to omit the dust-up between Gordon and Woolf over Roger Fry: A Biography and related matters, which is the main subject of the Smith article and for which there should now be enough sourcing to include. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
I was in the process of adding that but am determining how best to phrase it. Cowlibob (talk) 14:12, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
@Wasted Time R: I've incorporated the above into the article now. Let me know what you think. Cowlibob (talk) 16:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
@Cowlibob: It keeps getting better. But I'm unsure why you didn't also add something at the end about Woolf criticizing Gordon in return. You don't have to go into the details of what Woolf called her, but some mention that the acrimony went in both directions seems warranted. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
I've added a sentence about this. She only briefly mentioned Gordon six times but nearly always in a dismissive fashion e.g. "To make matters worse, Dr Mary Gordon rings up to bother us about her life of the Ladies of Llangollen; and it has turned grey and windy". Cowlibob (talk) 11:28, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
@Cowlibob: Oops, sorry, lost track of responding to this. Yes, that should be sufficient on that score, and I have no further suggestions. The article is much, much better with all these additions that have been made. Good work! Wasted Time R (talk) 11:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
  • New reviewer needed to check ALT3a. (Prior reviewer suggested ALT3, which is basically the same, fact-wise.) Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:42, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm confused. I gave the nomination an approval tick earlier; what transpired after that was discussion of some additional improvements above and beyond the DYK level. And then later I said I am okay with ALT3a. But I'll give everything another tick if that will help. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:20, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
  • @Wasted Time R: To clarify, the issue is per DYK rules as ALT3a is similar to a hook that you've suggested, you can't approve it and as I'm the nominator I can't approve it either. The rest of the review stands, it just needs a different user to approve the hook. Cowlibob (talk) 18:25, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Checked ALT3a, hook is in the article, in two parts, with references. Struck others per above. Suggest link to "recidivism" term. Thanks, Zeete (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
@Cowlibob: thanks, despite all the nominations I've been part of I didn't quite realize that (I've likely been party to a few violations of this rule in the past, but no harm done I think). Wasted Time R (talk) 01:09, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
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