Template:Did you know nominations/Proper right

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kieran (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Proper right

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• ... that the statue illustrated holds a sword in its proper right hand?

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Trevisana nera
• Comment: as written, needs to have the picture!

Created/expanded by Johnbod (talk), Twchalwick (talk). Nominated by Johnbod (talk) at 21:58, 6 December 2013 (UTC).

• Article has been expanded 5x, has inline citations, image is free. Hook is interesting, and referenced to an online source. Oddly, there are appears to be no definition in the Oxford English Dictionary for the term. Good to go! NinaGreen (talk) 05:40, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

• Can we please have an ALT hook that can be run without a picture? Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

No. It's entirely a visual concept, & would be pointless without a picture. Since we have so few hooks that actually use the picture, it seems rather perverse to ask for this when we do get one. Johnbod (talk) 12:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

• Image provided is not in the article itself. The image in the article is a painting of Charlemagne. The article seems vague on what illustration it means, and the Ref. seems about some other examples. Maybe it's clear to someone else, but I don't connect the hook or the image and the reference. — Maile (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Huh?? The term is specific to images, but is not specific to particular images. Any suggestions as to how I can make this clearer to speed-readers welcome. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Speed reading has nothing to do with it. With the article at 2,158 characters, one can afford to read slow.

• DYK rules on images and Review guidelines state that the image used in the hook must be in the article. I get that you are offering a concept. But the hook is using a specific image, and one that is not in the article.
• DYK hook specifically requires "The "Did you know?" fact must be mentioned in the article and cited with an inline citation ". Your hook is offering a "fact" on "the statue illustrated". The article text that seems closest to the hook is "The sword in the illustration might be described as: "to the left as the viewer sees it", "to the left of the picture", "at the view's left", "at the viewer's left", and so on. A British 19th-century manual for military drill contrasts "proper left" with "present left" when discussing the orientation of formations performing intricate movements on a parade ground."

• The reference is about the British manual for military drill contrasts, not about the "sword in the illustration".
• However, the painting of Charlemagne itself is labeled Here Charlemagne holds a sword in his proper right hand, on the "viewer's left" with no citation. Does that sentence "The sword in the illustration..." refer to Charlemagne? If so, it probably should specify that. If not, what is "the illustration"?

Speed readers aren't going to have a problem with this. It's in stopping to read everything that the questions arise. — Maile (talk) 14:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

No the relevant reference is the current #1. Here's the lead, with it at the end: "Proper right and proper left are conceptual terms used to unambiguously convey relative direction when describing an image or other object. The "proper right" hand of a figure is the hand that would be regarded by that figure as its right hand. In a frontal representation that appears on the left as the viewer sees it, creating the potential for ambiguity if the hand is just described as the "right hand"."

• There was only one illustration in the article, so obviously that was "the illustration" referred to (now pluralized). Reference 5, which you for some reason think is relevant to the hook (it's not at all) covers only the preceding sentence. The one before that covers precisely the opposite way of describing images. I might add that referencing the basic definition in this article proved unexpectedly and surprisingly difficult, as museums etc all seem (wrongly) to think that this terminology is so basic it doesn't need to be explained when used, nor included in their glossaries (or in a couple of cases had unusably unclear or complicated definitions). However ref 1, when I eventually found it, is clear and to the point, and fully adequate to cover any appropriate image, as the term is a conceptual one with a plain meaning. I take your point about the rules, and have added the picture to the article. Charlemagne wouldn't work at DYK size. The hook fact is that the hand the statue is holding its sword in is referred to in museum terminology and art history as its "proper right" hand, and the ref covers that fine. The ref is a guide intended to be generally applicable; I wanted to avoid refs referring to any specific work, where there might be an issue using it generally. Johnbod (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I see you have clarified the reference and added the hook image to the article. — Maile (talk) 15:00, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

BTW, going back to Bluemoonset's comments, I think it was meant that there is no guarantee that an approved hook will be in the top slot. And an ALT hook would provide for that possibility. — Maile (talk) 15:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm prepared to wait until the supply of DWM portraits dips - in fact since we have had quite a few classical-type sculptures over the last week or so, that's no bad thing. The subject is visual & really needs a pic imo. I hope the other issues can be regarded as resolved now? Johnbod (talk) 15:38, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the other issues I brought up are resolved. — Maile (talk) 16:08, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Johnbod (talk) 16:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The most recent icon is the question mark; the nomination cannot be promoted without a tick, which may be why there hasn't been any action for over a week. Maile, I think that should be you, if you're satisfied. And yes, that was my meaning above: there's no guarantee that someone will want to select the article for a lead hook (with that image or any image), so an alternate hook should be supplied. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:29, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Your meaning was always clear, as I hope was my reply. Johnbod (talk) 03:01, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

• — Maile (talk) 13:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)