- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 13:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Singt dem Herrn ein neues Lied (Kempf)
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 12:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC).
This article is new enough and long enough. The hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright issues. A QPQ has been done. But .... why is the hook so complex? How about ALT1? (The German Shepherd dog is known as an Alsatian in the United Kingdom) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:37, 23 August 2020 (UTC)- ALT1 ...
that the hymn "Singt dem Herrn ein neues Lied" was written by an Alsatian?
- That would leave the reader with no understanding of what the title means, so would need a translation in brackets. I thought that the connection to the psalm (actually 3) was more elegant. Also, the world war aspect seems almost sensational in the context. Perhaps you could word that somehow? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:07, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
Approving ALT0. I knew you would not like ALT1, but it is much hookier than ALT0. (If the reader wants to know what the title means, they could click on the link to find out. The hymn seems to have six or more biblical sources, so why single out one?) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Cwmhiraeth is right. ALT1 is much hookier; it's not clear why these two points are being made in ALT0. Yoninah (talk) 01:43, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- It's hookier, but the psalms are a topic of the year, and the first line is my motto, - and readers who don't read German may miss the meaning. I find it much more sastinishing that he wrote that in the middle of a war, than that he was Alsatian. How is that even hooky? Would it be hooky if we said Bavarian? Open for suggestions, but the translation has to be there, minimum. ... "wrote it in German and French" might be better than hint at a region that some may not even want to find out about, no? - Lovely Main page today for me: TFA and DYK. Waiting for ITN for Jürgen Schadeberg. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- ALT2: ...
that during World War, "Singt dem Herrn ein neues Lied" (Sing a new song to the Lord) was written in German and French? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Well, that's not much of a "hook"... Yoninah (talk) 17:30, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- You mean people will not know that the Germans occupied France, sadly? I had no time for a hook, just the building blocks? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Returning from a great day out: what do you expect? If someone can word that it's quite unusual that in World War someone wrote to sing a new song to the Lord daily, in two the languages of enemies, go ahead. I thought I did, and you told me not enough. We could still just try it, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:01, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think ALT4 is good. Gerda? Yoninah (talk) 22:02, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
- (returning after a funeral day, so not caring about peanuts too much:) I don't think it's good, because the key thing - that he did so in 1941 during the war - is missing, and the fact of the German phrase being how Psalm 98 (and some others also) begins is nothing unique to this hymn. I think the original hook may have been not phrased the best, but covered the contrast. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- ALT5 sounds better to me than ALT4 since it appears to be more accessible to readers, and also because it conveys the originally-proposed hook in an easier-to-understand way. Gerda, would you be okay with going with ALT5 instead? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:45, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- What I miss in ALT5 is any help to understand the German, which might be a translation in brackets or a reference to that it begins like Psalm 98. Otherwise we'd have six words which mean nothing to readers who don't read German. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:22, 19 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think the translation would be required in any case since the hook fact isn't dependent on it and readers could always click on the article itself to know the translation if they wanted. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Yes they could. But I think that they might miss the most unusual thing, that he called to fight misery by singing daily songs of praises. Without that contrast (and actually a good recipe any day), the mentioning of the timing makes no sense to me, sorry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:38, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- In any case, ALT4 is probably unsuitable as it requires familiarity with Psalm 98, whereas ALT5 is easier to get. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:29, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- I see nothing wrong with ALT4, but Psalm 98 will probably get more hits than the bolded link. Yoninah (talk) 17:36, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- Has a decision been made on a hook yet? The nomination has been stuck for a while now. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:28, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, Yoninah, Cwmhiraeth — May I propose yet another rephrasing of the hook? To me, the most fascinating aspect is that this piece was written during wartime between the two nations, in both languages. Hence, this Alt6 hook which is within the 200-character limit, yet conveys the meaning in the most intriguing manner (imho):
- ALT6 ...
that the hymn "Singt dem Herrn ein neues Lied" (Sing to the Lord a new song) was written in both French and German during WWII from occupied France? — JGHowes talk 14:05, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- That's fine, just WWII seems a bit too - don't know how to say. We could just say "in 1941 from occupied France", no? ... possibly with a link. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:42, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Because "World War II" was mentioned in your hook Alt0, I thought that was good to keep, emphasizing that this hymn was created during a desperate time of war engulfing the two countries. JGHowes talk 18:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Gerda. "1941" and "occupied France" tells everyone it was during WWII. Here is an alt:
- ALT6a ...
that the hymn "Singt dem Herrn ein neues Lied" (Sing to the Lord a new song) was written in both French and German from occupied France in 1941? Yoninah (talk) 18:35, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Upon further reflection, I concur that ALT6a is spot on. It's clear, concise, and should serve to interest the reader whilst providing the key facts. JGHowes talk 19:10, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: could you please add something to the article about him writing it in
occupied France
with a cite? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 19:13, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I looked, and it's a bit more complicated than I knew, see Alsace-Lorraine#World War II, and not particularly well sourced. Anybody more versed in politics perhaps? We don't want it to come up at ERRORS. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:27, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- Although Nazi Germany considered Alsace to be "annexed" to Germany after the French defeat in 1940, rather than "occupied" French territory, that claim was certainly not internationally recognized. (see this map). But it would be absolutely correct to say, "Nazi-controlled Alsace" instead of "occupied France". So here's another stab at it:
- ALT6b ... that the hymn "Singt dem Herrn ein neues Lied" (Sing to the Lord a new song) was written in both French and German from Nazi-controlled Alsace in 1941? JGHowes talk 22:29, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
- "Nazi-controlled Alsace" will need to be added to the article (and sourced) for this hook to be viable, just as "occupied France" would have needed to be. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- JGHowes, would you please do that, find a ref for "when Alsace was controlled by the Nazis" or whatever? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:01, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Done. See this diff. — JGHowes talk 12:54, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
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| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
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Overall:
Good to go with ALT6b. The only holdup with this nomination has been disagreement about the wording of the hook, but that has now been resolved. Thank you to everybody, for doing their best to get this right, and thank you to the creator Gerda Arendt for infinite patience. (Note: I have struck out all the redundant hooks, as requested by the creator).
Storye book (
talk) 10:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Good to go with ALT6b. The only holdup with this nomination has been disagreement about the wording of the hook, but that has now been resolved. Thank you to everybody, for doing their best to get this right, and thank you to the creator Gerda Arendt for infinite patience. (Note: I have struck out all the redundant hooks, as requested by the creator). Storye book (talk) 10:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)