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Template:Did you know nominations/Zuzana Marková (soprano)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by feminist (talk) 10:49, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
ALT6 promoted

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Zuzana Marková (soprano)

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 11:46, 15 January 2019 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith
  • Interesting: No - I don't think this hook is sufficiently interesting. It's not surprising that a notable opera singer has performed internationally, and roles such as Elvira and Lucia tend to be sung by similar types of sopranos.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: buidhe 08:05, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Of course the roles are sung by similar kinds of sopranos, but they define what kind she is, bel canto, not dramatic, + both roles are known for being difficult. We could mention specific places, but I have been told not to promote the same houses again and again. We could talk about her breasts as one review does, but I'm not into that ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:03, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid I agree with Buidhe here, we'll need a new hook here as the current one is not very interesting; I've thus struck it. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:20, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
ALT2: ... that the Czech soprano Zuzana Marková has appeared as Elvira in Bellini's last opera at the Opéra Royal de Wallonie?
That girl gets mad because her fiancee leaves her on their wedding day to rescue another woman. We can mention "alongside John Osborn" but then you'll say you don't know him, sigh. If you don't, I could improve his article and mention it in hers. - I'm on vacation ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
That doesn't change the fundamental problem here sadly, in that it's still a hook that goes "That Opera singer X appeared as Y in Z". The best option here will probably be to try a hook that doesn't involve her opera roles. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:32, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
I am not willing. Would you demand that we write a hook about Shakespeare without mentioning a play? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:58, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Not as much, but theoretically it would be possible to write hooks about Shakespeare that focus on things other than his plays (for example, his personal life). An opera singer performing for an opera is not exactly a spectacular hook fact, and by itself is rarely interesting to a broad audience (an equivalent hook for example would be something like "that television actor John Doe played the role of James Dale in Television Series?". It's just not hooky. If there are no other possible options, unfortunately this may have to be marked for closure. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:26, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Patiently trying again. I'd feel like cheating my audience if I'd mention some quirky little fact about Shakespeare, but failed to say that he wrote comedies and tragedies, naming one example of each. Please take a look at the collection of operatic hooks. Bellini was not mentioned even once!! I puritani is a decent article, and the theatre was just destubbed, so is new as well. If that is not what DYK is for, I don't know what is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:37, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
@Buidhe: Do you have any suggestions on how to move forward here? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 16:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5 and Gerda Arendt: Unfortunately, no. Judging from her article, she is quite successful as an opera singer but hasn't done anything especially interesting or unusual. buidhe 17:59, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Not a DYK requirement to have done something unusual, + her personal interpretation of that role IS unusual. I saw it. LouisAlain, does the French review show that? (In Germany, the premiere was sung by Brenda Rae, so reviews are about her whom everybody should know. + the opera house and the opera should get known, - isn't that the purpose of DYK?? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:45, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Gerda, I've found 3 articles in French about this singer. You'll read the rough translations on my Sandbox page. Hope it will help. LouisAlain (talk) 08:54, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much! We read in the last article (Lucia di Lammermoor, mentioned in the original hook): "From the outset, and throughout the show, a Lucia who never ceases to amaze by what the performer seems to have understood both of the role and herself. ..." which confirms what I think about her. How can we proceed? The full quote is too long for her article. Anybody in for a summary that she is not only vocally stupendous but plays the character with sensitivity and intensity? - In the first review, she was sick. The biography (no 2) is good and supports the article. Feel free to add, - I go outside for another vacation day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
  • In any case, it still seems that we need a new hook to be proposed here. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:33, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
... or someone to look at those suggested with different eyes. Busy after a travel day, sorry. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:00, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
ALT4: ... that the Czech coloratura soprano Zuzana Marková studied not only voice and piano but also conducting, at the Prague Conservatory? I would guess that conducting is not a standard part of training? so this might be a possible hook. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 01:25, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
It's actualy not rare that singers study other instruments and conducting (a good preparation for getting older, and even a requirement at institutions, like instrumentalists have to study also a second instruments), so thanks, - but she's known for singing these parts, and in a way that critics say "ideal" or "a revelation", - just I'd like to stay factual. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:04, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Then perhaps some material needs to be added, to include that kind of comment, which can then be used in a DYK? Something could be made of comments on the Lucia mad scene here]. Another possible fact that's not currently in the article is that her opera debut occurred at 16 (click on the biography tab).
Good idea. I doubt that the "mad" link would qualify as reliable, though. Just returned from vacation, with a lot of open threads, unfortunately. Patience please. Debut as a teenager is not unusual. Look at Wilma Lipp. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:48, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
ALT5: ... that reviewers found the Czech soprano Zuzana Marková an ideal singer and actor of Massenet's Manon? source - one said "Traumbesetzung", my translator says "dream cast", - we can use it if it's a term. My problem: We mentioned Manon already in an opera DYK, but never Puritani. I'd still prefer the first hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:20, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
ALT6: ... that Czech soprano Zuzana Marková's last-minute role as Lucia di Lammermoor at Opéra de Marseille in 2014 was described as dazzling and praised for the depth of understanding of her interpretation? (197 characters; new text and citation added to article; comments translated from Forum Opera article. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 03:50, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Review needed of latest ALT hooks. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:37, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm not going to do a full review, but I would like to say that I find ALT6 the most interesting; most of the others don't seem very hooky. I think ALT5 could work, but ALT6 is more interesting, imo. I do think it would be better if "dazzling" were in quotes. Just my 2 cents. :)--SkyGazer 512 Oh no, what did I do this time? 15:01, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Question: @Gerda Arendt: I was surprised to read that she made her operatic debut at age 16. Is that unusual? Could it be a hook? Flibirigit (talk) 04:44, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes. See above, look for "teenager". Without saying which role, that says nothing about her other than that she has courage. It could be the 4th of five maids, singing one song. But here we have a woman who critics say is ideal for Lucia di Lammermoor and Manon, both hard to sing, and she ideal also in looks and acting. Why be unspecific if you can be so specific about what she does, and not many others. ALTs 5 and 6 do that for me, thank you MMO! My first opera was Lucia di Lammermoor, and the review said that it wasn't played for a long time because the title role was so demanding. Thank you, Yvonne Ciannella. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:54, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Seems like there is no proposed ALT7. I am checking sources on ALT5 and ALT6 now. Flibirigit (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
I have struck ALT5. I cannot verify where one, or mutliple reviewers said she was ideal. Flibirigit (talk) 16:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
ALT6 is verified, mentioned and properly cited inline, and good to go. Flibirigit (talk) 16:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
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