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Template-protected edit request 2020-12-23 - Spurious accuracy in distance conversions

The documention says

<!--------------DISTANCES--------------> <!-- As crow flies, i.e. straight-line. Miles may be converted to km via {{convert|(distance)|mi|0}}. -->

but, for the foo_distance_mi and foo_distance_km parameters, the conversion happens automatically. This seems to be OK for larger numbers but, for smaller ones, an extra decimal place is added. For example, in Tottenham,
|charingX_distance_mi = 6
gives
Charing Cross 6 mi (9.7 km).
Changing the parameter to
|charingX_distance_km = 10
would give
Charing Cross 10 km (6.2 mi).

If the input has no decimal places, the output shouldn't either. --Cavrdg (talk) 09:49, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. How exactly should this be fixed? DannyS712 (talk) 12:02, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't know the technical aspects but Template:Convert is mentioned as one of the trancluded pages. I think that, if there is an entry X in one of the foo_distance_mi parameters, this template currently sends X to {{Convert|X|mi}}. I want it to use {{Convert|X|mi|0}} instead so what appears never has a decimal place. Similarly, Y in foo_distance_km should use {{Convert|Y|km|0)). --Cavrdg (talk) 18:09, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that would be desirable, because some editors may wish to specify the distance more precisely, e.g.

• {{convert|5.8|mi}} → 5.8 miles (9.3 km)

Under your suggested change, this precision would be lost when converted:

• {{convert|5.8|mi|0}} → 5.8 miles (9 km)

I think, on balance, that the default rounding is probably the most appropriate. To give you a silly example, which illustrates the problem with your suggestion, 1 km would be converted to 1 mile

• {{convert|1|km|0}} → 1 kilometre (1 mi)

I'm sure you agree this is not right! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:41, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Adding Scottish Health Board area parameter

Hi, I would like to add a parameter to the template to list a settlement's Health Board area. This is one of the more widely-used administrative divisions in Scotland, as it bridges a gap between the 32 smaller council areas and Scotland as a whole, and serves as a successor to the similarly sized 1974-96 regions. The only other administrative division (apart from Council areas) currently supported by the template is the Lieutenancy areas, which are largely irrelevant as they are based off the old, pre-1974 counties, and are now only used for local representatives of the Queen. I have made the required changes to the sandbox (adding a health_board_scotland set of parameters after lieutenancies_scotland, and moving the subsequent row numbers up by one), and have demonstrated the change in the testcases here. It would be great if someone could make this change to the main template, pending any queries or objections. Thanks, PinkPanda272 (talk/contribs) 21:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Population template

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject England/Parishes RfC#Infoboxes about possibly adding census templates to places using this infobox. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:03, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Type

Of 23,927 uses of the template only 377 have type set. Is there an agreed list of standard types?

Please could somebody add type to the documentation with some guidance about valid values and not including links. — GhostInTheMachine (talk) 11:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

It was added by Plastikspork (talk · contribs) in this edit at 22:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC). The idea was that pages where the {{Infobox England and Wales civil parish}} was replaced by {{Infobox UK place}} would have |type=Civil parish added. Other pages were mostly left alone, but I have seen the following:

• |type=[[City]] - see St Davids
• |type=Town - see Didcot
• |type=Village - see Red Roses
• |type=[[community (Wales)|Community]] - see Eglwyscummin

The parameter presently has two purposes: (i) it adds a pale blue bar between the placename and the image and adds text to that; (ii) in conjunction with |country= it amends the short description from "Human settlement in the United Kingdom" to e.g. "Village in England", "City in Wales", etc. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. We have a mix of |type=City, |type=[[City]] and |type=[[City status in the United Kingdom|City]] and about 8 variants of "Town"!

So, rather than setting an explicit SD template for every UK village, a better way forward would be to ensure that the infobox has |type=village and also update the infobox template to output the county where known. (?) — GhostInTheMachine (talk) 16:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I assume you mean Country, not County. These should already be set. Be careful of adding |type=Village, not all will be appropriate. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:17, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

The infobox currently uses the country, but it needs to use the county as well. e.g. Village in North Yorkshire, England  ———  Yep. "Village and civil parish" crops up a fair bit. — GhostInTheMachine (talk) 19:47, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Countries are an absolute breeze compared to counties, the meaning of which doesn't just vary from one country to another, but also between different parts of England. We presently have these parameters:

| lieutenancy_scotland = 
| lieutenancy_scotland1 =              <!-- (if place part of more than one lieutenancy)-->
| lieutenancy_wales = 
| lieutenancy_wales1 =                 <!-- (ditto) -->
| lieutenancy_northern_ireland = 
| lieutenancy_northern_ireland1 =      <!-- (ditto) -->
| lieutenancy_northern_ireland2 =  
| manx_sheading = 
| metropolitan_county =     <!-- (use link, e.g. [[Tyne and Wear]]) -->
| metropolitan_county1 =    <!-- (if place part of more than one metropolitan country) -->
| shire_county =            <!-- (use link, e.g. [[Devon]]) -->
| shire_county1 =           <!-- (if place extends to more than one shire county) -->
| lieutenancy_england =     <!-- (not required where shire or metropolitan is the same) -->
| lieutenancy_england1 =    <!-- (if place extends to more than one lieutenancy) -->

even assuming that people use them correctly. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:18, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Then I guess we are all doomed - we have to stay with a manual SD if we want something better than "Village in England". However - we do still need something in the documentation about the "type" parameter. I will get all bold in the morning ... — GhostInTheMachine (talk) 22:17, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

{{Infobox settlement}} is related, and it has a parameter |settlement_type= which seems to do much the same job, perhaps we could pinch the documentation for that. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I take it no one would object if I added type to the TemplateData documentation at this point, per Ghost’s request? I assume it just got left out because the wizard misses it for some reason. It would certainly help in getting more places adequately labelled. I also assume we’re agreed that it should not contain links? — HTGS (talk) 10:11, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

— GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 11:29, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Isle of Wight update required

This template needs to be updated with regards to the fire and ambulance services on the Isle of Wight. Currently the template (e.g. at Newport, Isle of Wight) links to Isle of Wight Fire and Rescue Service for fire and Isle of Wight Primary Care Trust for ambulance. But neither of these exist anymore, as they are the Hampshire & Isle of Wight Fire and Rescue Service and Isle of Wight NHS Trust respectively. I do not have permission to edit this myself so can someone who does please do so. Elshad (talk) 22:02, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Elshad: I have updated template. Keith D (talk) 23:01, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

@Keith D: Thanks, however I notice that in the infobox the piped text/link still shows fire as "Isle of Wight" when it should say "Hampshire and Isle of Wight". Could you fix this as well please? Elshad (talk) 10:01, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Elshad: I have made the change - though it does wrap now. Keith D (talk) 10:06, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

@Keith D: Thanks. Elshad (talk) 10:30, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Post town case

Why does post_town convert to capitals? I see no documented reason for this to do so. Pinging Kevin McE who raised the same question in 2018, but never got a reply. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 11:01, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm guessing, it's because the Royal Mail guidelines ("Address format in detail" section) state that the post town should be written in captials. -- WOSlinker (talk) 11:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes post towns are supposed to be in all caps which is why its used here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I know that post towns should be in caps for addresses, but that is no reason why they need to be in caps in an infobox. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 13:02, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

How do people feel about formatting it using {{sc}} (small caps), then it wouldn't be so shouty? Compare

• Post town: BEDFORD
• Post town: BEDFORD

Comments? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:05, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

No, forget that idea. On some platforms, it is too small. (And not easy to fix: see long discussion at Template_talk:Unichar#Corrected smallcaps output (so it is fixable with effort if anyone really thinks it worth the effort). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

If anyone wants to pursue this idea, the solution is to use span style="font-size:85%", which produces BEDFORD It has the advantage of being easily retrofitted to the existing template and wouldn't require thousands of articles to be updated, and complies with MOS:ACCESS. It would need an RFC, which I won't initiate unless there is some evidence of interest. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:27, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

That code is not permitted within that infobox field, where text is already reduced to 88% of nominal, per MOS:SMALLFONT. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:24, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you for pinging me. We are not writing on an envelope. The postal town for where I live is Colchester, and when writing anything other than the address of an envelope, that word is rendered with one capital letter and nine lower case ones. The field is for the name of the post town, not for direction of what the Royal Mail would like you to put on an envelope. Did anybody here ever look up the post town of a location specifically for the purpose of writing an envelope? I'm going to estimate less than one in 100,000 of visits to articles about UK locations. If a post code is correct and legible, the post town on an envelope is ignored by Royal Mail anyway. The field serves some purpose as indicating the nearest large town/city, but similar, and usually more precise, info is easily available in the infobox anyway; the field could be dropped with no real inconvenience to the reader, but even if it is retained, there is no good reason for it not to be written according to the norms of the English language,not those of a company. Kevin McE (talk) 13:25, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes, I agree. The intro to MOS:CAPS would seem to apply. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:55, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure that very many people use capital letters for post towns do they? Certainly the mail I have in front of me just now doesn't, apart from one case where everything is in caps. I'd be perfectly happy to go to non-caps - but I'm sure there are a great many examples where it's been typed in using caps. Blue Square Thing (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Well I thought in a letter only the post town's supposed to be in all caps so for the Co-op in Hadleigh you would use "72 High Street, Hadleigh, IPSWIHC, Suffolk, IP7 5EF" in other words "Hadleigh" the smaller town is not written in all caps but the post town (Ipswich) is. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

That may be so, but virtually no one appears to write the caps. Blue Square Thing (talk) 19:04, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposal - remove automatic capitalisation from post towns

From reading the above, I still cannot see any reason why this infobox needs to automatically capitalise post towns. This is not a how-to guide on writing envelopes, which is not necessarily followed by everyone anyway. Therefore I propose that that the automatic capitalisation is removed. At present I am not proposing that all articles should be updated if the field is written in capitals; this can be debated later. Please add your comments below. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 08:37, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 08:37, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose all Royal Mail publications show post towns in all caps. Why deviate from the source material for your own personal preference? MRSC (talk) 13:17, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

  Because a) MOS:CAPS, and b) we extrapolate data from source material, not formatting. — O Still Small Voice of Clam 14:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom, per MOS:CAPS, that on Wikipedia, the WP MOS has precedence over external styling rules, and because there is no need to shout. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:13, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support: We are giving the name of a town, we are not obliged to provide the publicity for a private company (that they singularly fail to invest in) as to their preferred presentation of that town's name. Kevin McE (talk) 16:12, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
• Support for the reasons I gave above. Blue Square Thing (talk) 21:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/81 208.127.199.33 (talk) 08:33, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Nobody is disputing the style that RM would like people to use on envelopes (not that it is explicit on that page): this discussion is about the style to be employed in our infoboxes. Kevin McE (talk) 22:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

• Support per MOSCAPs and Royal Mail's own usage: If you search for a postcode or search for a RM office the addresses are in standard case, RM's website shows its registered office as " 185 Farringdon Road, London, EC1A 1AA" etc. The CAPS are only used by RM when displaying the post town within an address block.--51.7.92.61 (talk) 22:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Support for the proposal seems clear, and more than a week has passed without further comment, but this needs an admin to act on it. Kevin McE (talk) 17:20, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Requested at WP:AN — O Still Small Voice of Clam 20:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done. A normal template edit request would have worked as well. It appears that many, if not most, values of |post_town= are written manually in ALL CAPS within the article's infobox (cf Abercarn and many others). Fixing that may require a bot request and some very careful regex construction. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:42, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Change to Senedd

Hi, I propose that the term used for |constituency_welsh_assembly be changed from Senedd Cymru – Welsh Parliament to Senedd in-line with the main articles for this topic, in addition the article linking from this template is titled Senedd constituencies and electoral regions with Senedd used in preference over the official names Senedd Cymru and the Welsh Parliament, or a longer combination of the two, such as the current dashed title.

Although (at least legally, in terms of official names for the legislature) the current dashed billingual name can be deemed correct, I am merely following the consensus on the main article page. If Senedd isn't preferred, the current bilingual name should remain to show the bilingual nature of the devolved institution. Many thanks. Dank · Jay (talk) 20:59, 2 August 2021 (UTC)