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Hello

Hello. I wanted to ask you, do you speak Coptic? Lawliet Yazawa Ryuzaki (talk) 11:49, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Hello. Yes i do. ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ (talk) 19:05, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

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The inclusion of Coptic names for Egyptian cities on Wikipedia

Hi ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ,

I see you have done a lot of great work on providing coptic names for cities of Egypt. Some angry editors just think they have the right to go ahead and remove the coptic names from noticeable articles (like Cairo, Alex, etc.) and their reasoning always turns out to be highly subjective and unjustifiable. This leads us into very long and useless debates, see: Talk:Alexandria#Official_names_inclusion_in_lede_and_infobox. After we end up agreeing on including the Coptic name on a given article, same thing happens again and again months/years later, and the pattern of deleting the Coptic information makes you feel that good faith can't be a valid assumption anymore, especially when it comes to information about the Coptic heritage of Egypt.

I am hereby suggesting to add a section under Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#Specific topics that is specific for Egypt. The section shall give guidelines for the lead paragraph and infobox of Egyptian cities, and shall explain clearly that Coptic name for a city should show up in the infobox with English and Arabic names. There are many arguments supporting the necessity of this inclusion, we can list some of them if needed. We might also need to introduce a rule for the inclusion of the name in hieroglyphs as well.

Dr.K. amd Khirurg, I appreciate if you can give us your thoughts on this. I can start up writing a draft for that new section, and get feedback from you guys. Once we have consensus, we can go ahead and add the new Egypt-specific guidelines to WP:NCGN, then we can review all the relevant articles (including Egypt and Cairo, both of which have been victims of the same anti-Coptic editors) and update them accordingly.

Appreciate hearing your opinion guys. Thanks! --Ramses Nagib (talk) 19:20, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello Ramses!

And thank you for bringing up this topic. You're right, Coptic names are often wiped out here in Wikipedia without any reasoning (i don't consider "official language" argument as a valid reason).

Creating a guideline for the leading paragraphs would be great. A few supporting arguments that come to mind first:

• Coptic language is technically dead but there are still people that communicate in it – just see all the Facebook/Telegram/WhatsApp groups or Coptic Wikipedia Incubator. Here Wikipedia will fulfill it's essential mission providing information, in this case - Coptic names of Egyptian towns.
• I'd say 70% of Egyptian cities, towns and hamlets' names have a Coptic etymology.
• An obvious argument that Egyptian language is a part Egyptian heritage and it shouldn't be wiped out just because someone doesn't like it

I'd use Bohairic name for every other city that has a Coptic name with names in their respective dialects included (f.e. Dallas (Bohairic: ϯⲗⲟϫ, Fayumic: ϯⲗⲁϭ). Transliteration is a bit tricky as there are few pronunciations. For Bohairic names i'd use so called Old Bohairic revived my Dr. Emil Maher Ishak (so Bohairic: ϯⲗⲟϫ Diloʒ) as it is widely accepted throughout Coptic community. ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:10, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Hey ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ,

Thanks so much ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ for your reply. I definitely agree with your point of view:

• People definitely still communicate in Coptic, and the support group for this beautiful language is growing, not shrinking. I personally never thought of Coptic as a dead language. Many Egyptian people nowadays consider the Egyptian Arabic as a stand-alone language instead of the view that it is an Arabic dialect. They consider Egyptian Arabic as a language that is based on both Coptic and Arabic. According to this view, Egyptian Arabic is simply a modern phase of the thousands-year-old Egyptian tongue. Demotic is another phase, Coptic is another phase as well, and so on. The Egyptian Arabic phase is affected by Arabic, the lingua franca for the region. Coptic phase is affected by Greek, the lingua franca during that time, and so on. So it is just like a spectrum, where Egyptian Arabic, Coptic, and Demotic mix with each other in one realm. And yeah, kudos to Coptic Wikipedia Incubator!
• Even for cities that don't have Coptic etymology, they have equivalent names in Coptic that have been used since the muslim conquest of Egypt, like ⲕⲁϣⲣⲱⲙⲓ, which appears in a lot of Coptic corpora on Cairo. And you know ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ that the number "70%" is very conservative :) it can go as high as 90%!
• Coptic is definitely the centric core of our Egyptian heritage (language is not just a way of speaking or communication, it actually affects your thinking, logic, cognitive skills, etc.) The general rule (for Wikipedia) is to prefer 'inclusion' of information over 'deletion'. The conventions for content removal are very restrictive. You are required to at least open a discussion on the talk page before deleting something that you don't like. Yet, you still see some random IP addresses removing Coptic content (in a systematic way) and even destroying other non-Coptic information as well. Most of the time, there is some anti-Egyptian pattern that can easily be recognized!

I would also add the following reasons:

• Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is supposed to be 'comprehensive'. We are not listing the names of Sinai, for example, in all languages of the world. We are interested in the Coptic name because it is as important as the Arabic one.
• Many readers on Wikiepdia are academic people, researchers, Egyptologists, historians, scholars, amateurs, etc. From that prespective, Egypt becomes very special because it has the longest and most intense history ever. Many of the readers are interested in the Coptic content, the Middle or Demotic Egyptian content, and Greek information as well.
• Whenever I encounter a Coptic word that I am not aware of, I simply google it. If we choose to include the Coptic names for Egyptian cities in Wikipedia, this indeed will help the search engine show up Wikipedia results before all other results. This is necessary because we want people to be referred to Benha article when they google ⲡⲁⲛⲁϩⲟ.
• Consensus among native Egyptians today is very supportive to Coptic culture. Most of the Egyptian people that I know are actually very proud of the Egyptian culture and heritage, and they consider Coptic as a core part of it.
• Finally, I believe the word 'Copt' is more of an identity than a religion or ethnicity. I still nead to argue against some non-accurate information on Copts article, but this is another whole story.

I have created the following guidelines:

• Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Egypt-related articles: this includes guidelines for page title, lead section, and the infobox. Shortcuts: MOS:EG or MOS:EGYPT.
• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Egypt): this includes guidelines for English, Arabic, Coptic, and Greek names, based on your great contributions to many Wikipedia articles. Shortcuts: WP:NCEG or WP:NCEGYPT.

Please feel free to review and update them at your convenience. If you approve them, I will go ahead and update WP:MOS and WP:NC to refer to those new pages for Egypt-related guidelines. Once we are done with all that, I suggest we can next review the Egypt-related articles again (articles for places, like Cairo, Alexandria, Giza, etc.) and update them accordingly.

Finally, I am currently working on a new template for Arabic/Coptic/Greek names in the infobox of the articles. This will help us easily update all the articles of interest, and also make them all consistent with each other: same format, same order, same heading, with simpler wikitext code that suits Egypt-related styling conventions.

Thanks again for everything ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ! I really appreciate your great support on this.

--Ramses Nagib (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Hey Ramses,

Sorry for the late reply. I strongly approve these guidelines with a few remarks:

• It says every city in Egypt must have it's Coptic name. We just don't have an Egyptian name for a lot of them.
• Also besides Emil Maher Ishak's "arabized" OB pronunciation i would add a classical Bohairic one (but of course it depends on a toponym we're dealing with).
• I don't think we should refer to List of Coptic place names as it's quite messy and outdated (and should be updated as well).

Thank you a lot for your hard work Ramses!

--ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 10:04, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd also set rules for latinisation of Coptic toponyms here at Wikipedia and would personally use the Arabic pattern when the definite article is lowercase and is separated by a hyphen (eg. al-Qahira=di-Kashromi, al-Minya=t-Mone, Maqusa=p-Mangase and so on) --ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 16:46, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

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Coptic script

Dear Fadi, I noticed you added Coptic script for that name there. Is this a spelling the man wrote or what you would have spelled? I already noticed someone changing your text. Best regards. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 03:51, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Coptic Request

Greetings Mr Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ,

Nice to meet you.

Could you kindly help me translate this article into the Coptic language? please.

The "True Jesus Church" is an independent church that was established in Beijing, China in 1917. Today, there are approximately 2.5 million members in sixty five countries and six continents. The church belongs to the Pentecostal group of Christianity that emerged during the early twentieth century. They aim to preach the gospel to all nations before the Second Coming of Jesus. The ten main beliefs of the church are:

1. Holy Spirit
2. Baptism
3. Feet Washing
4. Holy Communion
5. Sabbath Day
6. Jesus Christ
7. The Bible
8. Salvation
9. The church
10. Final Judgement

--DaveZ123 (talk) 13:35, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

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Mit Ghamr

Hey there, I noticed you added a translation for Mit Ghamr's name, but it's actually wrong. As a native, I can assure you the name doesn't have a meaning or a meaning that we know of.

"Water" means mayya /ˈmɑj.jɑ/, the construct form is mayyet /ˈmɑj.jet/, not mīt /miːt/ which is "hundred [of]" ("hundred" meyya /ˈmej.jæ/).

Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 02:19, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I just checked, you added another wrong meaning for Suez /es.seˈweːs/. Liquorice is عرق سوس /ˈʕeɾ.ʔeˈsuːs/. Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 02:25, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I noticed a lot a mistranslations you made that I deleted or corrected and I wonder where you got them from? In case you meant that the original non-Arabic word meant that, then that should be noted, otherwise they are plain wrong. Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 03:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Hey, don't really understand your remark on Mir Ghamr – mit (from Coptic ⲙⲟⲛⲏ - منية (minyat) "abode" + ghamr "flood, deluge, inundation".

Suez is coming from سوس "liquorice" – See Stefan Timm "Das christlich-koptische Agypten in arabischer Zeit", p.2425 I would appreciate if you could start discussion on Talk pages of the given articles instead of reverting them. Thank you. --Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 10:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

• I don't know how my remark on Mit Ghamr was hard to understand. I explained to you what seemed to me how you misunderstood the "Arabic" translation could have been. You made a mistake when you labeled the translation as an Arabic translation when the words together are meaningless in Egyptian Arabic and Standard Arabic.
• Suez is the English name of the city, [seˈweːs] سويس in Arabic, while "licorice" is two words عرق سوس /ˈʕeɾ.ʔeˈsuːs/, and never shortened to just [suːs] سوس which means "mites"/"[dental] caries", the plural of [ˈsuːsæ] سوسة. If the use of just [suːs] سوس seems to be in the Levant, then it's still wrong to generalize it to all Arabic speakers.
  • 2. : نَباتٌ مِنْ فَصيلَةِ القَرْنِيَّاتِ، عُشْبِيٌّ مُخْشَوْشَبٌ مُعَمِّرٌ، بَرِّيٌّ، لَوْنُ أَزْهارِهِ ضارِبٌ إلى الزُّرْقَةِ، جُذورُهُ طَويلَةٌ
    [1][2]
  • It seems that the word you're looking for is related, but it has no relation to the name of the city.
  • Some theories [3]: it's simply one of many theories that سوس might be the origin of the word.
• Regarding ghamr, what about the word Ghamra غمرة which is the name of a neighborhood in Cairo? Is it also related to the "Arabic" Ghamr in Mit Ghamr?

I don't think I should create discussions on each page for your provided translations for two reasons:

1. They appear plainly wrong and were not cited.
2. They are not in Arabic and falsely tagged as Arabic.

If the meaning of the words is from another language, then don't simply tag them "Arabic: ... lit.", because that implies that these are words that Arabic speakers understand to mean what you wrote. It would be more appropriate to create an etymology section since most words seem to have been corrupted from the original or simply one of too many theories; such translations in the lead are very weird, anyway and are a novelty only made by you, never in other articles.

--Mahmudmasri (talk) 23:47, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand why you put your own understanding of terms above the etymology and dictionaries. The toponym Mit Ghamr consists of two clearly Arabic words which you may not understand or not use in your everyday life but it doesn't change the fact. I guess you are concerned about the "mit" part, not "ghamr", because it's a specific word, not used in everyday speech, which comes from Coptic and reserved for an abundance of toponyms around Egypt.

You may not understand it but it doesn't change the face that it is an Arabic word and it does mean "abode, station on Nile, harbour" and so on.

Timm states that As-Suweys is a Fu'ail-form of سوس. It is used along with compound عرق سوس, and you saying that it's Levantine makes it even more convincing as Sinai toponyms could be easily affected/created by the Levantines. Concerning the theories you provided – it's just folk etymology and false Egyptological speculations that correspond to neither archaeology nor linguistics. The place names based on plants names are regular in both Coptic and Arabic toponymy of Egypt. If i state that the name comes from the Levantine Arabic, would it solve the issue?

Concerning Cairo Metro station – i have no idea, i've never studied this toponym but it may share the same etymology.

Concerning translations of the toponyms – it's not my novelty and is widely used around Wikipedia. I guess i can conclude that your point is that if the toponym is not obvious to a regular Arabic speaker it should be explained in the etymology section? --Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

What is your source that says ميت is an Arabic word? The Arabic word is related to "death". I'm aware that many Egyptian places have the word in them, e.g. Mit Okba, Mit Abu El Kom.

• Obviously, if a toponym's meaning isn't self-evident, then it shouldn't be in the lead of the article, and again, if a word originated from Coptic then borrowed into Arabic, it can't be tagged as "literally means in Arabic", such as the case of Mit Ghamr which seems to be a mixture of an Arabized Coptic word (if I understood you correctly) + a Classical Arabic word, ghamr (ghamr is understandable, from "drown" "flood"...), because it doesn't directly have the meaning from the borrowed word, as it is only used in toponymy, not in Literary Arabic (or Egyptian Arabic).

Finally, similarly to Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source, Wiktionary shouldn't be a decisive source.

• I didn't make up etymologies, all the meanings I provided you were sourced, i.e. not "mine". By the way, in the Wiktionary entry you cited for سوس, it is apparent that it cited a Levantine source. And yes, if سوس seemed to be how it might have been derived in the use of the people of the Levant for Arabic, then state that it is regionally (in the Levant[ine Literary Arabic]) means licorice, please.

Thanks again. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 11:49, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Well my source is purely empirical – new place names created after the conquest that are not related to Coptic like Mit Ghamr, Minyat al-Amir (modern El-Hawamediya near Cairo) or Mit Abu El Kom. That means that people named these settlements not with unknown word that related to "death" but with clear understanding of what that word means.

I can agree that using it in the lead might be a bit excessive but i strongly disagree that it doesn't "mean" anything in Arabic. There are plenty of Coptic words borrowed into Arabic and they definitely "mean" something if they were borrowed. Maybe there's a huge misunderstanding between us, i'm sorry if it's the case.

Concerning Wiktionary – you can easily go through the references and prove them wrong, just like on Wikipedia.

Well i didn't make up etymologies as well, i provided a source, it's not my invention (although i didn't do it in the article, sorry, i'll fix that). --Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Coptic names

Hello Fadiouershi. I have been wondering why you add Coptic names like that for seemingly secular figures? He was not the pope. I'm not aware of records for them in their Coptic transcribed names and they were not publicly used. When someone's called Ⲓⲱⲥⲏⲫ his name is actually transcribed Yosab and I personally know someone called like that. When Egyptians choose Coptic names, they transcribe them even in Arabic, like يوساب in this case and pronounce them in a more Coptic version. Thanks. --Esperfulmo (talk) 14:09, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello, i'm sorry for these edits, they were made 5 years ago, when i had a stupid impression that every Coptic person on Wikipedia has to have a name written in Coptic script. Feel free to delete these. Thank you. --Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 14:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

page # in a French journal

Thanks for your work. I was hoping you could point me to a source for your recent addition here. If you found the information on the source here, which is found after the text, please let me know the page #. I was looking through the source and could not find a reference for your addition. Or you can simply add the page number to the reference in the Mokattam article. The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 13:19, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@The Eloquent Peasant

Thank you, i've specified the page. Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 16:32, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Kurah

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Hello. I don't quite understand, the only thing copied from the book in that article was the list of Egyptian kurahs, because well, it's a list of toponyms. Could you let me know how to make a list "using my own words", if you don't mind? Thank you. --Ⲫⲁϯⲟⲩⲉⲣϣⲓ (talk) 15:55, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

1. Omit or re-write in your own words the paragraph of prose that started "In Egypt the term kurah was used by Arab administrators..."; it was almost identical to the source
2. Create an alphabetical list of kurahs, omitting the descriptions, which were copied from the source. — Diannaa (talk) 19:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

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El-Horeya Road moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, El-Horeya Road, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more in-depth coverage about the subject itself, with citations from reliable, independent sources in order to show it meets WP:GNG. It should have at least three, to be safe. And please remember that interviews, as primary sources, do not count towards GNG.(?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.Onel5969 ^{TT me} 11:35, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

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Concern regarding Draft:El-Horeya Road

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Your submission at Articles for creation: El-Horeya Road (October 26)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by SafariScribe was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

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