User talk:瑞丽江的河水/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Proposed deletion of Counter-terrorism center city

The article Counter-terrorism center city has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Not much of a topic - just a list of cities which have received particular attention by the Chinese counter-terrorism agency. Possibly poorly translated from Chinese. In addition, the only reference is a dead link.

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Ethnic composition of townships

Nihao! Do you have data about Ethnic composition of townships of Yunnan by census?--Kaiyr (talk) 21:29, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

	The Real Life Barnstar
	Thank you so much for your help with our new editors, and for creating the wonderful new page for WCI! Smirkybec (talk) 12:53, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Hong Kong sites

Thanks for your help on the Grand Plaza article. Do you happen to know if there should be Wikipedia articles for the following?

• commons:Category:Growth, Norman KO Wah-man
• Justice Drive (commons:Category:Justice Drive)
• Lily Pond, University of Hong Kong (commons:Category:Lily Pond, University of Hong Kong)
• Lung Cheung Road Arch (commons:Category:Lung Cheung Road Arch)
• commons:Category:Pool Pavilion of Kowloon Park
• Public Square Street Rest Garden ? (commons:Category:Public Square Street Rest Garden)
• Queen Street Rest Garden (commons:Category:Queen Street Rest Garden)
• commons:Category:Thank You (Van Lau)
• The Offering of the Six Devas (commons:Category:The Offering of the Six Devas)
• commons:Category:Statues of the Twelve Heavenly Generals at Po Lin Monastery
• Hong Kong Park
  • Statue of John Robert Osborn (commons:Category:Statue of John Robert Osborn in Hong Kong Park)
  • File:HK Spring LaiChiMan.JPG, File:Hong Kong (2017) - 578.jpg
• Statue of Sun Yat-sen, Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park (commons:Category:Sun Yat Sen Statue, Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park)

---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:46, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@Another Believer: Hello, I come from china mainland, not know well about Hong Kong. But I can help you a little:

1. commons:Category:Growth, Norman KO Wah-man No, it's not a important statue
2. Justice Drive, a chinese article here zh:正義道
3. commons:Category:Lily Pond, University of Hong Kong I think no, it's only a pond in university, I think it can't be a independent article in wikipedia
4. commons:Category:Lung Cheung Road Arch there has a article in enwp, see Lung Cheung Road, if you talk about the image, that is Wong Tai Sin Temple (Hong Kong)
5. commons:Category:Pool Pavilion of Kowloon Park No, just part of Kowloon Park
6. commons:Category:Public Square Street Rest Garden no, not important
7. commons:Category:Queen Street Rest Garden no, not important
8. commons:Category:Thank You (Van Lau) no, not important
9. commons:Category:The Offering of the Six Devas part of Po Lin Monastery, I think no
10. commons:Category:Statues of the Twelve Heavenly Generals at Po Lin Monastery same as last one
11. commons:Category:Statue of John Robert Osborn in Hong Kong Park, no, not so important
12. File:HK Spring LaiChiMan.JPG, File:Hong Kong (2017) - 578.jpg no
13. commons:Category:Sun Yat Sen Statue, Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park no, part of Sun Yat Sen Memorial Park

--Xiliu※heshui · criticize me 20:07, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

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reversion for Momien

Hi, I've reverted this to a redirect as evidence has not been provided or found for the change. If you have a reliable source would you please revert to DAB (actually it should be a WP:SIA instead) and cite it - preferably at the target but otherwise on the page. ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 01:32, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Hydronium Hydroxide: Done, how do you think the citation or should I offer more materials.--Xiliuheshui · chat 01:48, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, the quote was helpful - change accepted. ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 01:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Hydronium Hydroxide: Cheers. I changed that when I reading the Template:Shan states, lots of mistakes lol. I found that it is a big difference between Chinese and English Wikipedia that SIA and DAB are almost the same in Chinese Wikipedia. Thanks for teach me the difference.--Xiliuheshui · chat 02:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

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Want to know more

Sir, May i get complete quote of your addition in Dimasa Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dimasa_Kingdom&diff=963974671&oldid=963974488 . Thank you Hachengsa (talk) 20:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

@Hachengsa: Sure, the paragraph is below:
大古剌等处土酋泼的那浪所遣使臣选马撒等言其邻境有七曰大古剌小古剌底马撒茶山底板孟伦八家塔皆在西南极边自昔不通中国今天朝遣官宣布恩命人民皆愿内属乞设官统理仍招谕旁近未附之从之以大古剌底马撒二处地广各置宣慰使司小古剌茶山底板孟伦八家塔各置长官司以泼的那浪为大古剌宣慰使腊罔帕为底马撒宣慰使拜张早张看伽立昧刀罕替刀轻罕为小古剌等长官使长官俱给诰即敕符金字红牌遣给事中周让等赍 敕往赐之仍各赐钞币有差
You can find Ming Shilu in the Chinese Text Project. And the quote was from the project website page here. "Institute of History and Philology, Academia Sinica" of Taiwan has republished Ming Shilu some years ago and I have the digital book (here). The information is on the page 0817-0818. There are three times of records about Dimasa in the Ming Shilu, I stated them in the article Dimasa Kingdom in Chinese Wikipedia.--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:19, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Say one more thing, former Chinese study believe that Dimasa Xuanwei Si was in the Lower Burma. But in the early 20 century, the seal of Dimasa Xuanwei Si was found in Assam. Burmese scholar Chen Yi-sein did a little study about Dimasa in the thesis Study of 'Great Gula', 'Little Gula' and 'Dimasa' (in Chinese language). I upload the thesis file to my google drive (here), you can try to read with a translator. If you have any problem on Chinese literature I can help you.--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much. In Assam, There are some monoliths which look like Tian monolith https://books.google.co.in/books/about/Megalithic_Splendours_of_the_Dhansiri_Va.html?id=VQNQDQAAQBAJ . Can you help me to confirm if they are Tian monolith or not ? Ming Shilu mention total eight polity (Di-wu-la was seperated from Da gu-la) : Da Gu-la , Di-wu-la , Di-ma-sa , Xiao Gu-la , Cha-shan , Di-ban , Meng-lun , Ba-jia-ta. I've a confusion if all these are chinese word or name of kingdoms with chinese pronunciation. There is Dimasa community and Dimapur city, So, we can confirm that Di-ma-sa is connected to Dimasa people or Dimapur city. I've added some identification.

Da gu-la's Pacification superintendent = Po-di-na-lang = Some king with Narayana title of Da gu-la.

Di-wu-la's Chief = Duo-li-shi-ma-zhi = Some king Manikya title of Ti-pu-ra.

Di-ma-sa's Pacification superintendent = La-wang-pa = Some king with Pa/Fa title of Dimasa kingdom.

Meng-lun's Chief = Dao han-ti ~~ Tyao Khamti of Tai-Ahom kingdom. Tai-Ahom people came from place called Mong-Mao-Lung

Ba-jia-ta's Chief = Dao Qing-han . Tao or Dao title was used in Tai kingdoms.

Xiao Gu-la's Chief = Bai-zhang and and (Tea Hill) Cha-shan's Chief = Zao-Zhang both of them have same surname. They might be ruled by same tribe.

To understand relation between Da gu-la and Di-wu-la. This old journal may be useful. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=0TQzAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA829 .

I'll contact you if i will need help. Thank you sir. Hachengsa (talk) 08:14, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@Hachengsa: Yes, we can confirm that Di-ma-sa is connected to Dimasa people or Dimapur city. About other polities as follows:

1. Da Gu-la (大古剌, 大/da means great or big): Chinese study believe that the Da Gu-la is Kingdom of Hanthawaddy in lower Burma. Chen Yi-sein did a study of it in the thesis above. He stated that the name "Da Gu-la" is a Chinese name transcription of Tuikgala or Taikkala. Taikkala was a place name in Kelāsa mountain of Thaton which belong to Hanthawaddy at that time. Lan Na attack Taikkala when Binnya U throned king of Hanthawaddy. Chinese ancient people heard the name Taikkala, so record the name "Da Gu-la" in Chinese literature and refer the name to the Kingdom of Hanthawaddy. The king's name "Po-di-na-lang" (泼的那浪) is a compound-word about Pattana ("port" in Pali language) and Rhang ("host" in Burmese language), so the name "Po-di-na-lang" means "the host/owner of port". It is because a Chinese envoy Yang-Xuan (杨瑄) arrived at Hanthawaddy in 1403, and the king is Razadarit. Razadarit controlled all the seaport in lower Burma, so Taungoo people called him "Pattana-Rhang" which means "the host/owner of port". Chinese envoy Yang-Xuan heard the nickname and then Chinese literature record it as the king's name.
2. Di-wu-la (底兀剌): You are right, Chinese literature recorded Di-wu-la was separated from Da gu-la. Chinese scholar Fang-Guoyu (方国瑜) stated that "Di-wu-la" is a Chinese name transcription of "Taungoo". Based on Chen Yi-sein's study and other Chinese ancient records, we can confirm that Da Gu-la is referring to Hanthawaddy. And Di-wu-la was separated from Da gu-la, so Di-wu-la is more likely to refer to Taungoo rather than Tripura. The chief name "Duo-li-shi-ma-zhi" (朵里实马智) and he has a grandchild name "Na-lan" (纳兰). I have no idea about them.
3. Di-ma-sa (底马撒): Although some Chinese ancient book (e.g. Mingshi) records Di-ma-sa was "at the southeast of Da Gu-la", we can proof the records was wrong. Anyway the seal of Dimasa Xuanwei Si was found in Assam, it is enough to prove Di-ma-sa is connected to Dimasa people or Dimapur city. The professional scholar didn't explain why the Chinese ancient book records a mistake location about Di-ma-sa. I guess it is because Di-ma-sa is so close to other polities, from the perspective of Chinese capital, all these polities were in the south-west of the country. In order to arrive at these states, envoy should towards the west pass Yunnan in the general direction. So the ancient scholar thought these states should be located together. It is just my own conjecture, no reference support.
4. Meng-lun (孟伦): It is no doubt that Meng-lun is a Tai/Dai/Shan people place. Chinese literature records the Meng-lun at the west of Mongyang State. Fang-Guoyu guesses Meng-lun at the place called Mawlu between Mohnyin and Naba in nowadays. But he was not sure, he used the word "might be" (quote: 疑即孟伦). The king's name Dao han-ti (刀罕替) and Tyao Khamti looks exactly refer the same person. I haven't seen any Chinese research connected them together, but I think it's very possible. Digression, I have finished the article Mong-Mao-Lung in Chinese Wikipedia, it is a good article now and ready to be a featured article. But my English is not good enough so I won't improve English Wikipedia Mong Mao in the near future.
5. Ba-jia-ta (八家塔): no idea where is it. I agree with you that Ba-jia-ta might be a Tai kingdom. The Dao (刀) also is a popular surname in Chinese Dai people group.
6. Xiao Gu-la (小古剌, 小/xiao means little or small): Chen Yi-sein did a study on it, the summary is as follows: The "Gu-la" of Xiao Gu-la was a transcription of Gaur, there is no relation between Xiao Gu-la and Da Gu-la. The "Gu-la" of Da Gu-la came from Taikkala, and the Pali language name of Taikkala is called Golamattika Nagara. Both the "Gola" in Golamattika Nagara and "Gaur" have a common origin: Gauḍa. Thus, Gaur also be translated as "Gu-la".
7. Cha-shan (茶山): A scholar Yin-Zijian (尹梓鑑) wrote a thesis study the Cha-shan hundred years ago. The thesis was collected in Journal of Yongchang-Fu, volume 28 (永昌府文征). But I don't have the book and no digital edition on the internet. If I get the book, I will tell you the information.

Notes

References

--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

You may interested in the reference book Study of historical geography in southwest of China. Here is it.--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Back to your question, sorry I don't understand what is "Tian monolith". Is it a special stone stele? And I didn't get what you said "if they are Tian monolith or not". Do you means "do they have Tian monolith or not"?--Xiliuheshui · chat 21:59, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Front page have some stone structure. They have shape of Tian. Tian is Chinese representation of Heaven. Hachengsa (talk) 06:25, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Sir , I'm using this reference http://epress.nus.edu.sg/msl/reign/yong-le/year-4-month-6-day-24

Da Gula introduce other six polities like Di-ma-sa, Meng-lun etc. So, They all are close to each other. Hachengsa (talk) 06:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Hachengsa:I have no idea about Tian stone of them, I have never seen Tian stone in my hometown Dehong, the Dai people area. The reference http://epress.nus.edu.sg/msl/reign/yong-le/year-4-month-6-day-24 is just the translation of the Chinese text above "大古剌……各赐钞币有差". The translation is correct, but the original record may not correct, they might be not together. The reason I stated above. But the historical academia has no consensus yet, so, you can say they are together. It is most popular cognition, but hard to compatible the new evidence.--Xiliuheshui · chat 00:20, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

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Most populous cities in Guangxi

Hi, please don't use templates like {{Most populous cities in Guangxi}} and the like as navboxes at the end of articles. Those are used for content. For an example on how to places them, please look at other articles, such as Finland#Largest_cities, Arkansas#Cities_and_towns etc. Way too much content to be placed as though they were navboxes.

I've reverted some of them; please take care of the rest. TJRC (talk) 03:11, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@TJRC: Is there any relevant regulations? I saw some of the templates are also placed on the bottom of city article.--Xiliuheshui · chat 03:15, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Just that that's for navboxes; this is not a navbox. It's way too big for one thing; navboxes need to be unobtrusive. If it's being done badly elsewhere, that should not be replicated. TJRC (talk) 03:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@TJRC:: I know what did you said. I mean I saw some of the largest city navbox template are place at the bottom of city articles. Such as Beijing, Osaka.--Xiliuheshui · chat 03:19, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@TJRC:: If there is no regulation or rules prohibit largest city navbox place at the bottom, I don't think I can't put at the bottom as lots of examples did.--Xiliuheshui · chat 03:27, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:NAVBOX;if you insist on inserting this, make it a collapsed template. TJRC (talk) 03:34, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@TJRC:Beijing#External_links, Osaka#External_links, Busan#External_links, Surabaya#External_links, Bangkok#External_links, there are lots of city use the same navbox at the bottom, why you don't allow me use it, and please don't revert more, we don't have a consensus yet.--Xiliuheshui · chat 03:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Please read WP:BRD. You're the one introducing the new edit, and once that's been disputed, the onus is on you to start the discussion and get consensus. if you get consensus, I'll go along with it. in the meantime, please don't force your edits in.

I've reverted on the two articles on my watchlist: Guilin and Yulin, Guangxi. Start the discussion on one of those if you believe your edits should be reinstated. in the meantime, do not edit war. My revert edits are to put the articles back to the status quo from before this started. TJRC (talk) 08:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@TJRC: Sure, I don't know the custom about navbox in English Wikipedia. So I asked User:Swarm, and if he concludes it is not navbox, I won't insert at the bottom anymore. I don't want to force my edits or take conflict. But hope you also pay attention to Beijing#External_links, Osaka#External_links, Busan#External_links, Surabaya#External_links, Bangkok#External_links as well. Not only concentrate on my new edits. Anyway I'm not the inventor who start insert the largest city navbox at the bottom. Cheers.--Xiliuheshui · chat 22:58, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

• Hm, interesting dispute. So 瑞丽江的河水 wants to include this as a navbox, while TJRC thinks it's not a navbox, but a table discussing article content, so it belongs in the body, not among the navboxes. There are examples of the same type of table being used both ways. I can't find any "rules" governing this dispute specifically, and I can see both sides. Based on my interpretation of WP:NAVBOX, a NAVBOX is not a table that discusses article content, it is a generic tool that organizes links to related articles. In TJRC's examples, the articles are about larger territories and the tables in question are discussing the cities within those territories. So in that context, it makes sense that the tables should be in the article body, they're not just some meta tool to assist navigation, they're literally relevant content to the articles themselves. In 瑞丽江的河水's examples, the articles are individual cities, they fall into the category, and their articles will mention their status, of "largest cities", however these articles will not be discussing the larger subject matter of "largest cities" in whatever territory, so there's really no pertinent place for, or reason you would have these tables in the main body of these more specific articles. The table is still relevant, but at that point it's more of a navbox linking users to other cities in a category, rather than a core piece of article content. I see what TJRC is saying, but it appears that the status quo is that these tables are used in both ways depending on the context and scope of the article itself, and that makes sense to me. I think it's in line with the relevant guidance, and I would agree that it makes sense for the table to be used as a navbox in specific city articles but as main body content in articles about the larger territories. Just to be clear, I'm just a random person weighing in because I was asked (I don't know why). I can't conclusively rule on this dispute, only a consensus and dispute resolution could do that. But I think my assessment here is reasonable and other uninvolved observers would not find it contentious. TJRC already seems inclined to not die on this hill and let 瑞丽江的河水 go forward with this if they "insist", so long as they follow NAVBOX guidelines, which I commend as very reasonable, but perhaps this context will put their mind at ease about it more. ~Swarm~ ^{sting} 23:54, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

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Georges Maspero

A shorter (?) version of the book appeared as a journal-chapter. You can access the text over here from any USA/Canada based IP address. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2021 (UTC)