Alkalada

Welcome to Wikipedia!!!

Hello Alkalada! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. You may also push the signature button located above the edit window. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. This is considered an important guideline in Wikipedia. Even a short summary is better than no summary. Below are some recommended guidelines to facilitate your involvement. Happy Editing! -- LittleOldMe 11:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC) Getting Started Wikipedia Tutorial How to edit a page The five pillars of Wikipedia Manual of Style Be bold in editing How to write a great article WikiProjects Getting your info out there Cite your sources Neutral Point of View Point of View Verifiability Uploading images Image use policy Getting more Wikipedia rules Policy Library Getting Help New contributors' help page Where to ask a question Help Desk Frequently Asked Questions Getting along Wikiquette Civility Sign your posts Wikipedians Conflict resolution Getting technical Cleaning up vandalism Pages needing attention Peer review Utilities Village pump

Civility

While I have a certain feeling that we have met before and that you already know it, I have to warn you that edit summaries like this are highly inappropriate and that civility is not negotiable on Wikipedia. Please show respect for the fellow editors even when you disagree with them. Thanks. Duja► 09:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Hahahihihoho, you do have a point about official names, but your manners haven't changed much. Being right doesn't entitle you to scream at other editors; guess I could block you right away for continued edit warring, tho' I'll give you some leeway this time. Duja► 14:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I havent attacked anybody accept when I called estavistis behaviour as cetnik behaviou but I am sorry for that, it will not happen anymore.

I will bee cool in the future when editing. And show sources because I am only editing in articles where I know for 100 % it is true.

Alkalada 14:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool? No, evading your ban is not cool. Account blocked.

You are not allowed to evade your ban, Hahahihihoho. By creating these obvious sockpuppets, you are only making it more and more impossible to appeal your ban. I suggest you stop evading your ban for a month and then appeal to the arbcom (see Wikipedia:Arbitration committee) to be allowed to start editing again. By e-mail, not by creating yet another sock. If you get permission, nobody will block you. If you ever grasp the principle that the test for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, NOT TRUTH, that is. Why is that so hard?

I have blocked the obvious sock Alkalada. Don't create another one. Bishonen | talk 21:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC).

Okej. Well it has gone a week now.

So, in three weeks time, I am going to tell that guys that I have been banned in one month and followed your advice to tell them that. Alkalada 11:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Upon your request and Bishonen's agreement, I have unblocked you. Please feel free to drop me a note if you run into trouble. Fred Bauder 00:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked you for a week. Please take a look at your edits and consider how you might be more courteous and less confrontive. Fred Bauder 16:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, my suggestion would be to put sources and reason for editing on the talk page before editing. And I just cant accept people write that Bosnia never was a modern state. Because it was a modern state before 1500. And if that is nor considered to be modern, then Slovenia and Croatia also never was modern states. And this is really unfair if you dont block Ivan. Alkalada 16:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

For now I'm trying to get you unblocked, not expand the matter to include other users. You have it in your power to modify your behavior enough that no reasonable person would block you. For starters, just don't revert. And certainly, if after discussion a revert seems justified don't add comments like "revert vandal". Regarding Bosnia as a modern state, I don't know about 1500, but it did issue stamps as a dependency of Austro-Hungary. I think by modern state the 19th or 20th century is being referred to and I doubt an independent Bosnia existed in that time frame. But it isn't the question of whether Bosnia was a modern state, but going ballistic over the question. That is what must change, and it must change with you. Fred Bauder 20:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, if Bosnia wasnt modern staten in 18th and 19th, then Croatia and Slovenia also wasnt and that must be added which that croat doesnt. And regarding Bosnia, they joined Austria Hungary in 1878!!

They was independent between 1200 and 1400. Alkalada 11:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Okey, what date is it today? Alkalada 12:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It is time Fred Bauder 16:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? Hehe, I just wondered cause I will be unbanned today. Alkalada 10:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, now it has gone a week? Why am I not unbanned? Alkalada 15:46, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

FBiH/ RS Flags

Hey, nice work with the quick update regarding the entity flag decision. I congratulate you, you were quicker then me. Thanks, Vseferović 02:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, actually... RS flag is constitutional but the RS coat of arms and anthem and holidays is not. Alkalada 11:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

To Alkalada

I think this has gone on long enough. We need to establish a few facts: Yugoslavia existed, and it suited many people, and for much of the time, it has the full support from many Bosnians who formed a part of the administration. Secondly, "born in Bosnia makes you Bosnian", or what grounds? You still fail to produce this simple answer. A Bosnian national or a Bosnian citizen? If it is citizenship you mean, he doesn't have to be born there, he can acquire it in different ways, just as people born outside of a country can take that country's citizenship. If it is ethnicity/nationality, then that is to do with his private decision. As for your land being Bosnia & Herzegovina, well, it was from 1992, and as you say, once before for three centuries, but this may give rise to a group of local individuals like you who claim territorial integrity over that region, and congratulations, as today you have it; however, no land belongs to no nation. There is no such claim that Strasbourg rightfully belongs to Germany, or that it rightfully belongs to France. There are disputed territories all over the globe, and you have a responsibility at Wikipedia to present facts, not opinions, and moreover, be fair and neutral, not claiming that "Bosnia is Bosnian; Serbs and Croats were aggressors who tried to take it; Yugoslavia was a made-up false communist regime; you're born in Bosnia, you're Bosnian, as though it is encoded in the genes of everyone mysteriously conceived there". You have the right to call someone Bosnian only when 1)you can prove they have Bosnian citizenship, or 2)the individual has revealed that he/she is proud to be Bosnian, or declares Bosnian/Bosniak/Muslim ethnicity; at no other time do you arrogate that anyone is anything at all. It is known that Prelog was Croatian, apart from that, I don't go around implementing ethnicities on individuals and subjects. It seems that we can produce a million pieces of documentation to prove this, but it cuts no ice with you because you have your own ideas as to what makes his Bosnian. I cannot change your thoughts, but the rest of the community doesn't share them, so please, from here on, keep them to yourself. Once again I stress, this is no attack on Bosnia & Herzegovina. Evlekis 23:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, obviously it is a attack cause you claim that only bosniak is bosnian. My personal opinion is that you talk bullshit and we will continue talking on the talk pages.

Btw... in Yugoslavia we bosniaks had no power and they threatened us like we were jews. Alkalada 08:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Long live, the nation of Bosnia Herzegovina! Barbaric 01:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!

I just heard that Kosovo are going to get independence, now the last thing in the so called Greater Serbia is dissolved and you have won your freedom.

You can say Serbia is like Nokia, it is getting smaller and smaller. Alkalada 21:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC) Right on! Kosova is Albanian! I am sure with our 95% ethnical majoriry, we will get the refferendum. I worry a little that if we dont, I might have to learn to speak Serbian. dont want that. But then if i can speak serbian, i can communicate with my good Bosnian friends in their language! Long live the new European union! Bosnia, Kosova and Albania! Fuck the rest Barbaric 20:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

in your dreams boy. Jordovan 15:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Some advice

Please calm down a little bit and consider others' viewpoint a bit. If a person is born of Croatian parents in Sarajevo while they are temporarily there, then they move back to Croatia. If the person spends their life speaking Croatian, and things of himself as a Croatian, they they are probably best considered a Croatian, despite the accident of birth. Fred Bauder 14:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I have calmed down! I have expressed myself on the talkpages everywere and I am calm. And Vladimir Prelog wasnt Croatian. If they want I will write he was a Bosnian/Croatian writer but never Croatian. Alkalada 12:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not Emir Arven!

Check my IP and everything and you will see! Alkalada 08:49, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe you. —KingIvan 03:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC) 08:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Join MSN! Alkalada 11:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

3RR

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on Republika Srpska. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from editing. --Domitius 15:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Dear Hahahihihoho:

1. I do not support the independence of RS one bit; AFAIK I oppose it for the sake of stability
2. I tend to stand neutral in the final moments for the decision of Kosovo's future status, but yes; I'd like it (for the sake of stability) to remain inside Serbia
3. Of course I acknowledge the existence of a people known as Bosniacs; they number a more than a two-million strong population - how could I deny that? Where on earth did You come to that conclusion?
4. Naturally, I acknowledge the existence of a language known as Bosnian. After all more than two million people claim to speak it - how the heck could I deny that? What misled You to that conclusion?
5. And finally, of course I do not recognize the medieval bosnian kings as Bosniaks (if you're referring to the modern nation, then of course not - but if you're referring to "inhabitant of Bosnia", then of course I do), because that is simply something that they weren't. AFAIK if I did, I could be freely called a Bosniak nationalist. :)))

Did I clear up the confusion? Cheers, --PaxEquilibrium 19:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The Bosnian kings declared themself to be bosniaks. And if that isnt enough evidence... then I really dont care what you think.

And stability that Kosovo remains within Serbia? Well... you do know that there will be a war then and all serbs from Kosovo will be cleaned up? Alkalada 19:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Very extremely likely to happen in every single solution proposed for Kosovo... Your point? --PaxEquilibrium 16:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The kosovars are a freedom loving people that have fighted for freedom for 60 years. Now, after all evil things you done to them, like destroying 200 mosques, after all you will pay now.

Kosovo Liberation army have fought for freedom and won it. Now its time to win it in paper too.

Btw... USA, Great Britain, NATO, EU, Germany and France are for the Ahtisari proposal. It is very likely that you serbs are not only loosing Kosovo but are beeing humiliated by the great world powers!

Sadly for you, you will be humiliated the oncoming 2-3 years. Like they say:

Serbia is Like Nokia. Each year, new model. And its smaller and smaller.

I am not trying to humiliate you like the world powes are doing to Serbia, what I am trying to say is that you can stop dreaming about a future that in reality for you serbs doesnt look good.

Republika Srpska is a Bosnian entity with 3 constitutional people and is now territorial and social very well integrated into the independent, sovereign and politicaly independent Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

You are no more in the so called Republika Srpska Krajina. You lost Montenegro and the acces to sea. You are now beeing humiliated and loosing Kosovo.

Whats next? Novi Pazar, Tutin and Sjenica will demand autonomy. Presevo will demand unification with their ancient motherland Kosovo (Dardania) and the hungarians want a new constitution in Vojvodina.

You are loosing everything. I only want you to face the reality. This is not only to serbs I am saying, I say this even to nationalistic croats who want a Great Croatia.

I say to them:

First you wanted Croatia all the way to Zemun. Then you wanted Croatia all the way to Drina.

Then, Croatia all the way to Zenica, and then Croatia all the way to Mostar ( The plan was a great croatia to mostar and croatian enklaves like vitez and busovaca during the recent war)

Now since Mostar is not a Croatian city... then it is Croatia all the way to Ljubuski?

I mean... face the reality... wheather you are serb or croat.

You are denying the Bosnian language although it is accepted in the constitution. You are denying the existence of a Bosniac nation. You are denying the existens of Bosnia.

Why? Why not just face the hard reality? Alkalada 20:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all You cannot say that "Kosovars are a freedom-loving people", a lot of very different peoples are Kosovars. Second of all, they were not fighting for 60 years for freedom - again generalizing - most (if You are referring to the Albanians) started to fight in 1998. I have not done anything to them, I have not destroyed 200 Mosques (nor were that many mosques burned down; after all, it is 160 Churches that were destroyed by Albanian extremists) and I do not want to pay for crimes I did not commit.

The Kosovo Liberation Army was and still is a terrorist organization (although fighting against the UN and NATO nowadays). Things are already on paper.

At the last session of the Security Council, it was shown that Ahtisaari's proposal does not have international support required to adopt it. BTW Russia and Chine are greater world powers that any of those you mentioned, save the USA. Do not ever attach nationalities to, especially through anti-sentimentic stereotypic generalization.

I have been humiliated in my life quite a number of times, however if independence of Kosovo happens, I will not be humiliated one bit.

Once more: Do not generalize.

---

I do not deny the existence of the Bosnian language (how can I?). I do not deny the existence of the Bosniak people (how could I?). And in the last bit, how on earth could I deny the existence of Bosnia, a very vast territory known to everyone in the world!

What reality? Sir, please talk in precise words what You are talking about. I did not understand anything (save for a lot of insults).

P.S. Not a single Bosnian Medieval King ever declared himself a Bosniak.

---

What does this mean: If you go to Novi Pazar, you will se that you are not in Serbia, you are in Turkey.

So, I dont see any reason for you to move in there? Alkalada 11:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

??? I've been to Novi Pazar, and it's Serbia alright (what Turkey, what are You talking about, man?). --PaxEquilibrium 11:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Haha, sure its Serbia. They built big mosques in the city centre... you can see turkish bath (hamam) in the city centre, you can see 500 years old mosques, you can see turkish houses, medresas, you can smell bosnian cevape, you can see turkish flags and the most important one:

The entire city is like a big turkish mahala with absolutely no modern buildings. Is that Serbia? I dont think so....

1. Kosovo Liberation Army was not terrorist because they only fightet for their people and for freedom for their ancient nation Kosova. And they didnt kill civilians, only serbian soldiers.

2. Have you even heard what USA and Great Britan said a couple of days ago? And kosova prime minister said Kosovo will be independent by may.

3. Every single Bosnian kings did declare theself to be bosniak. There is evidence that you obviously never saw.

4. Kosovars are albanians an you know it. And they fightet for Kosovo just at the same moment as the evil komunist Yugoslavia was established. They wanted the kosovars to become komunists but they were proud albanians and muslims and they never gave up their religion.

Now... after 1999 400 new mosques were built in Kosovo. It seems like the Kosovars not only defeated the serbs but also the kommunists. Alkalada 12:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

1.That is not true. Before 1998 most targets of KLA were civilians and police. Attacking buses, police cars and stations is an act of terrorism. Kidnapping children and elderly people and threatening the government to withdraw forces from a territory and then executing them on tape is oh-so-much an act of terrorism. The NATO considered the Kosovo Liberation Army (for a period of time) a terrorist organization.
2. I'll answer with a counter-question: Did You hear what Russia and China said a couple of days ago? Radovan Karadzic said in 1992 that Republika Srpska will always remain independent of Bosnia and Herzgovina. The same thing said Mate Boban (in 1992) regarding the Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia and Fikret Abdic (in 1995) regarding the Autonomous Republic of West Bosnia. Milan Martic said in 1991 the Republic of Serbian Krajina will never re-integrate into Croatia, and Skender said that the Presevo Valley will secede from Serbia and join Kosovo this year. Tomislav Nikolic said the Serbs will separate from Montenegro. Pal Sandor said the Hungarians will have had inner regional autonomy in Vojvodina by last year... Vojislav Kostunica said that Kosovo will never ever separate from Serbia...
3. Not a single Bosnian Medieval ruler ever said anything regarding Bosniacs. AFAIK this is interesting that You mention it, because most prided with their Serbian origin and descent. :D

Quoting Tvrtko: Also me too, my slave (correct translation: God's servant) , for the mercy of my divinity giftedth me with divinity youth implanted in kin mine and giveth me with the double crown to both realms rule, first from the first in the God-given land of Bosnia, and then - when Lord God bestowed me the heritage over the throne of my forefathers, Serbian Lords, because those were my forefathers in the Earthal Empire reigned and to the Kingdom of Heaven crossed - I see the land of the forefathers of mine after them lefted and not having their own shepherd. And I went to the Serbian Land, wishing and willing to ascend the throne of my forefathers. And there leftedth I crowned was by the God-given Crown of the Kingdom of my forefathers, to be in Jesus Christ's name faithful and God-imlaced Stephen, King of Serbs and Bosnia and the Seaside and the Western Lands.

He continues with My parents Serbian Lords and signs with The King of Serbs... no comment.

4. Most (80%-90%) Kosovars are Albanians, but not all of them. Generalization in this point considering many diverse people are Kosovans cannot be used. Many Albanians are (and especially were) Christians back then. "Never gave up their religion"? Most Albanians were Christians till the 16th/17th century. :D Why "evil kommunist Yugoslavia"???

Yes, a lot were built; bur not 400 (a too large overestimate). How does it seem and what's the point?

What on earth do mosques have to do with countries? What the heck are You talking about? BTW both leaders of Bosniacs and other Slavic Muslims of Sanjak oppose independence of Kosovo. (Sulejman Ugljanin and Rasim Ljajic); one of them is almost a Serbian patriot and the other (Democrat) lobbies across Islamic countries in the world (especially Qatar and Indonesia) not to allow independence of Kosovo... What do You have to say on that? :)))--PaxEquilibrium 15:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I will tell you about King Tvrtko and reply with good evidence that he was a bosniak. But I dont have time, I will send you clear response tomorrow.

But I can tell you one thing: The reason he said he was kings of serbs wasnt because he was serb, it was entirely because he fought a war against serbia and gained much territory... Tvrtko said same thing about Dalmatia and Croatia. Does this make Tvrtko a croat?

I will respond with much more evidence later... be so sure...

As for Rasim Ljajic, he is the greatest betrayer of the bosniak nation and dont considere him a bosniak because he is not a bosniak.

He and Fikret Abdic is the greatest betrayer of the bosniak nation and thank god none of them has power. He is like Natasa Kandic is for you... serb/bosniak only on paper...

Anyway... I will put evidence of the bosniak king tvrtko... but until then I want to point one thing clear:

I DO NOT TOLERATE ANYTHING THAT POINTS KING TVRTKO AS A SERB.

He was a proud bosniak and he loved his country Bosnia. He had also the golden lilys on his coat of arms.

Tvrtko was not a serb!!!!! Alkalada 17:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I never ever said Tvrtko was a Serb. Second of all, I like Nataša Kandić despite her harshness; she's definitely not a traitor. Rasim Ljajic is one of the greatest statesmen of Serbia and half of all Bosniaks and other Slavic Muslims vote for him, so he's not a traitor. The other major Bosniak politician (SDA president) Sulejman Ugljanin is known as a Serbian patriot. And lastly there is no proof that Tvrtko ever considered himself a Bosniak. --PaxEquilibrium 00:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

How could he have been Bosniak if he wasn't Muslim?--Domitius 17:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW he fought the Muslims fiercely and was known as a defender of Christian Europe, to add to the irony. :))) --PaxEquilibrium 00:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

How?

1. He talked bosnian language 2. He was from Bosnia and everyone in Bosnia were bosniaks then. 3. Bosniak nation have existed for 1000 years if you didnt know.

Btw here is something to Paxequiliwhatever...

Az rab Bozji i svetoga Grgure, a zovom gospodin Ban Tvrtko, po milosti Bozjoj gospodin mnogim Zemljam Bosanskim,gospodin Bosanski,i srbski,i solski,i podrinski i mnogim stranam Bosanskim. Pravi gospodin Ban Tvrtko: kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

According to this... Tvrtko was a Bosanski/Srbski/solski/podringski king? What a logic?

How can he be a serb when he was both bosnian, solian and podrinjan? Alkalada 18:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I za tu sluzbu dasmo mu Cuklje u Lasve, i dasmo mu Klopc u Brode i dasmo mu Brlosnik na Uzore Vlsi. I hvala njinju, stavlajemo u vijeki amen. I s timi vasemi predasmo ga u vjeru djedinju i vse ^{Crkve Bosanske}. I vse krstjane da mu je ruka. I da mu se ne more svrci vjera krstjanska ni za jedin uzrok.... I da mu se tam njegov dlg nepohudobi nikadar. Alkalada 18:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Are aware of what the Bosnian church was?

Here is more...

I sto ga ne sudi Djed s dva Strojnika s njim. ..... I da ne suzanj nikadar dokle je korijen u Bosne Crkve Bozje. Da o tom ima crkva stati Alkalada 18:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Now the most important one...

A tomu svjedoci Dobri _Bošnjane : Vojevoda Vlkac, Zupan Crnul, Knez Bogad, Tepcic Belhan, Knez Branko Prinic, Knez Sladoje,....

Bosnjane = Bosniaks

Get it? Alkalada 18:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

1. He didn't talk the Bosnian language; he talked the Old Slavic language (allegedly of Serbian sub-dialect)

2. Original research, unsourced

3. Why were then they truly recognized in 1993, i.e. 14 years ago?

Bošnjak+Bosniak; Bošnjanin does not = Bosniak.

BTW You might find it interesting to know that Tvrtko prosecuted adherents of the Bosnian Church. :) --PaxEquilibrium 00:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody please tell me how to write something in BOLD? Alkalada 18:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure Alkalada? My copy of The Times' guide to the peoples of Europe at page 240 says:

“ The Bosnian Muslims are Slav Muslims descended from Serbs and Croats who converted to Islam while Bosnia was under Ottoman rule (1463-1878). Bosnian Muslim national consciousness is a relatively recent development: it is only since the creation of the first Yugoslav state in 1918 that they have come to identify themselves as a nation. ”

And this wasn't written by Serbs, believe it or not!--Domitius 18:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Domitius:

During the ottoman ockupation there was no such thing as Bosnian Muslim.

Al citizen of Bosnia was known as bosniaks.

And Husein Gradascevic said to the turks 1831:

Bosniaks have existed before you... during your ockupation and if god wants... even after you...

And please... dont take that as a source. People in Europe still see us as bosnian muslim although a bosnian muslim nation never ever existed and dont exist Alkalada 18:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Has never existed? Every census contained a "Muslim" choice. --PaxEquilibrium 00:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I have presented enough evidence for you so I will not search upp the other thousands evidence because it is obviously that you will never accept the evidence.

Btw... the term Bosnjanin was replaced by the term bosnjak when the turks arrived.

And those two are betrayer and everyone who votes for those so called bosniaks deserves the death. Every real bosniak in Bosnia supports Kosovo independence. Real bosniaks are Alija Izetbegovic (may he rest in peace) and Haris Silajdzic. Hasan Cengic was also a real bosniaks who resisted the evil kommunists. Alkalada 11:32, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no evidence that "Bosnien" was replaced by "Bosniak" as the Turks arrived. AFAIK it seemed that "Bosniak" was alone completely taken from the Turkish language (which was and still is today a simple meaning for the word "inhabitant of Bosnia").

Are You saying that all the 200,000 Bosniaks are traitors? Are You saying that there are "no real Bosniaks" in Serbia (and Montenegro)? Also, please define "Real Bosniak". What does that mean? A "Bosniak" is anyone whatsoever who decides to be that!

I cannot believe that most Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina support the independence of Kosovo because of:

1. I've talked with at least 5 Bosnians and they all agree that Kosovo should remain in Serbia

2. I cannot believe that most people dislike their own country (Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina) wishing against its interests and that which is bad for their homeland. --PaxEquilibrium 12:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh... this is the funniest thing I heard this month!

Ahahaha! AHhahahahaahahahahah!

Is it against the interest of RBIH that Republic of Kosova gets independence? Why?

Will you organize your little referendum then? Haha... and will you have your little "country" hacked up in two pieces (since Brcko district is not part of RS).

Haha! And the fact that a referendum is illegal, you dont care about that.

No... to say the truth dear pax...

Independence of Kosovo is the best thing that can happen to Bosnia since this will mean that our eastern neighbourn got 15 % smaller and smaller by 2 million people.

Although of course... Kosovo is not a part of Serbia but it will be nice to know that on paper too. Alkalada 12:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I will not organize any referendum, since I do not live in the Serbian Republic. And since I do not even have Bosnian-Herzegovinian citizenship, it would not be my country at all.

Illegal? Sure, any referendum in Republika Srpska for its secession would be illegal. Just like would any referendum in Kosovo for secession from Serbia be illegal.

An independent Kosovo will only bring further the rift into an already unstable Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, deepening the ethnic hatreds, separatist tendencies and other instability. It is to my opinion that this will bring new suffering and I am convinced that it might even end up with the destruction of the short-lived state.

How on earth could "Independence of Kosovo is the best thing that can happen to Bosnia since this will mean that our eastern neighbourn got 15 % smaller and smaller by 2 million people.". Tell how on earth would it benefit the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (turning a blind eye to the fact that it will hand over to BH a blow from which it will never ever be able to recover)?

BTW You didn't answer - Do You think that 200,000 Bosniaks are traitors and what do You mean by "real Bosniak"? --PaxEquilibrium 14:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, by my mean almost every bosniak in Sandzak is a betrayer. Sadly they show loyalty to the serbian state, but instead they should do what the albanians in presevo did, built a resistance movement and fight against the government.

Every bosniak who show loyalty to Serbia, who wants good relations with Serbia, anyone who doesnt recognize the independence of Kosova and every bosniak who recognizes Republika Srpska is a betrayer.

This also includes those who is seeing the current flag of Bosnia as a real flag and those who see the current anthem (without lyrics) as real bosnia anthem are betrayer.

And Bosnia isnt a short lived state... it has existed for 1000 years and the name Bosnia has existed for over 2000 years. Alkalada 15:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

OK tell me just whom did they betray. You just said that they're "showing loyalty" - which means that they are most definitely not traitors. Go ahead and ask User:Edin Sijercic what he thinks about all this. This also includes those who is seeing the current flag of Bosnia as a real flag and those who see the current anthem (without lyrics) as real bosnia anthem are betrayer.

Every bosniak who show loyalty to Serbia, who wants good relations with Serbia, anyone who doesnt recognize the independence of Kosova and every bosniak who recognizes Republika Srpska is a betrayer.'

Whom, what and why would they be betrayers (You obviously think 90% of the world's Bosniaks are betrayers)? Don't You think You're insulting them all right now?

For 2,000 years? And yet it declared independence in 1992 and was formed in 1995... --PaxEquilibrium 15:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Vukchich Kosacha (and the other members of the family)

He was Serbian Orthodox. His greatest contribution (and the Kosacas' in general) is the Serbian Orthodox Church Abbasside Monastery. His title of "Duke of Saint Abbas" (Sveti Sava). The center was at Mileševa and the Kosacas come from Serbia.

The many Orthodox and Bogomil refugees that swept over the Duchy of Saint Abbas because of the Inquisition and the campaigns of the Franciscans were protected by him. He protected the *heretics* by falsely presenting them as very pious Orthodox Serbs, but after him his work didn't last for long, as the Franciscans entered Herzegovina too. --PaxEquilibrium 21:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thats completely false like that Tvrtko was crowned at Milesava when there is clear evidence that Tvrtko was crowned in Mile near Visoko in Bosnia.

And Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca was a bosnian vojvoda who himself admited lojalty to the Bosnian kingdom. Hi expressed that Zahumlje (now Herzegovina) was an integral part of the Bosnian kingdom. He also come in trouble with the king of Bosnia, Stjepan Tomas because he protected the heretics and he himself was a bogumil or krstjani as he and his people called themselfe.

He was an member of the indigenous Bosnian Church that only existed in Bosnia as a state religion in Bosnia and he protected them when both the pope and the Bosnian king really opressed the members of Crkva Bosanska. And no, they were not orthodox.

I will delete now, but since I am tired now, I will post evidence and sources tomorow and then we can discuss it tomorrow. Alkalada 21:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

What on earth does Tvrtko have anything to do with this?

Yes, he was a Bosnian Duke - that afterwards when he consolidated rule over Herzegovina declared independence and seceded from Bosnia, creating another realm (as formalized in 1448), which was not an integral part of the Bosnian Kingdom.

Yes, I already wrote about it. But he himself was an adherent of the Serbian Orthodox Church, and most of his subjects (the Hum) were Orthodox Serbs.

If he was a *heretic* (and he himself in his edicts called the Bogomils "heretics"), then why did he have the monastery of Mileseva (traditional Bosnian-Serbian monastery, center of the Old School Serbian tradition) as the religious and cultural center of his realm, why did he spend countless money to construct a gigantic Monastery (the greatest endowment of Stephen and all the Kosacas) dedicated to Saint Abbas (the founder of the Serbian Orthodox Church) in the capital of his domain, and why proclaim himself "Duke of Saint Abbas" (the greatest Serbian medieval enlighten and founder of the SOC), the title worn by all Herzegovinian Dukes afterwards? How do you explain it? It really make no sense then...

What is "SSC"? --PaxEquilibrium 22:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Lol I even forgot, Duke Stephen was even at war with Bosnia, attacking it on one occasion. :) --PaxEquilibrium 22:51, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh and; he built the grand Abbas' Monastery in order to make a firm seat for the Zachlumian Eparchy of the Serbian Orthodox Church (it had no proper permanent seat, mostly in the vicinity of Trebinje). But after it was conquered and the actual city fell to the Turks in 1483, its last age it spent on Blagaj in Buna. --PaxEquilibrium 23:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thunderman?

You are Thunderman??? The abusive troll that keeps returning and returning and returning repeating the very same nationalistic insults???

Do you know that you can get banned only once for it to be final? You were banned for 7 times. --PaxEquilibrium 13:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Eh, do you know me?

I called myself Hahahihihoho, thunderman and some more names I guess. And do you know me or what? Alkalada 14:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I was banned more than 7 times, however that doesnt matter since I was unbanned and since I am behaving well now, and posting sources and not doing vandalism. Alkalada 15:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This is for you Pax:

Az rab Bozji i svetoga Grgure, a zovom gospodin Ban Tvrtko, po milosti Bozjoj gospodin mnogim Zemljam Bosanskim,gospodin Bosanski,i srbski,i solski,i podrinski i mnogim stranam Bosanskim. Pravi gospodin Ban Tvrtko: kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

I za tu sluzbu dasmo mu Cuklje u Lasve, i dasmo mu Klopc u Brode i dasmo mu Brlosnik na Uzore Vlsi. I hvala njinju, stavlajemo u vijeki amen. I s timi vasemi predasmo ga u vjeru djedinju i vse Crkve Bosanske. I vse krstjane da mu je ruka. I da mu se ne more svrci vjera krstjanska ni za jedin uzrok.... I da mu se tam njegov dlg nepohudobi nikadar.

I sto ga ne sudi Djed s dva Strojnika s njim. ..... I da ne suzanj nikadar dokle je korijen u Bosne Crkve Bozje. Da o tom ima crkva stati.

A tomu svjedoci Dobri Bošnjane : Vojevoda Vlkac, Zupan Crnul, Knez Bogad, Tepcic Belhan, Knez Branko Prinic, Knez Sladoje,.... Alkalada 15:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Povelja Stjepana Vukcica Kosace:

19.jula 1453

Učinih...s vascijem,milostivijem,srčanijem hotjenjem i pravom roditeljskom,istinojom ljubvom - milost i čast i dobru volju sinu mi,Knezu Vladislavu,kada dojde ka mnije i smjeri se preda mnom.

I dozva do sebe šta je učinio,koju zgrjehu gospodaru velikomu,i što je učinio bezpravdano i suprotivno manije,roditelju svojemu,kada dojde ka mnije,s velicijem smjerstvom i dozva po dostojnom pravdi do sebe.

I reče mi - postaviti opet u moje ruke vlasteli i ine sluge i gradove i prihodke i vse s čim je odašao bio od mene...

I reče mi - da će od sijem sega biti vjeran polag mene gospodaru velikomu i menije...roditelju svojemu,poslušan i ugodan...

I reče mi - da će biti skladan i jedinan s mojijem sinom i bratom svojijem,s Knezom Vlatkom - oba pod moj posluh,na službu i vjernost...

I reče mi - da mi neće ni jednoga suprotivstva po svojoj volji učiniti,nego da će mi ugađati i služiti,lijepo i dobrije i pravo i počteno,kakono ugodni sin svomu roditelju.

I za toj,tako više rečeno učinjenje i objetovanje sina mi,Kneza Vladislava...primam i primih milostivo i pravo i dobrovoljno k sebi opet Kneza Vladislava,za pravoga i ljubimoga sina,i za pravoga brata sina mi Vlatka.

I na toj postavismo svjedoke i sreditelje vjere naše : Djeda Bosanskoga i š njim 12 poglavitijeh krstijan i 12 našijeh plemenitijeh vlastela - ako mi svrši Knez Vladislav više rečene objete za moga života,ugoctvom i pravijem posluhom...kakono sin svome roditelju.

As for Tvrtko's edict... what are you trying to say with it? What does he have to do with the Kosacas? And if you were referring to the "Good Bosniens" bit, other mentions were used. These are Ban Matej Ninoslav's words: In the name of the father, son and the holy ghost! I, God's slave, Matej, branch of Ninoslav, great Bosnian ban, swear unto the prince of Dubrovnik, Dubrovnik's Žan Dandole (Gianni Dandolli) and all the regions of Dubrovnik. I swear just as Ban Kulin swore before me: For the Vlachs to walk freely as they did in the time of Ban Kulin, freely without deceit and evil...thus if a Vlach deceives a Serb, may he be held in the Ban's court. Kulin Ban also described his subjects as Serbs.

And these are Tvrtko's words: Also me too, my slave (correct translation: God's servant), for the mercy of my divinity giftedth me with divinity youth implanted in kin mine and giveth me with the double crown to both realms rule, first from the first in the God-given land of Bosnia, and then - when Lord God bestowed me the heritage over the throne of my forefathers, Serbian Lords, because those were my forefathers in the Earthal Empire reigned and to the Kingdom of Heaven crossed - I see the land of the forefathers of mine after them lefted and not having their own shepherd. And I went to the Serbian Land, wishing and willing to acceed the throne of my forefathers. And there leftedth I crowned was by the God-given Crown of the Kingdom of my forefathers, to be in Jesus Christ's name faithful and God-imlaced Stephen, King of Serbs and Bosnia and the Seaside and the Western Lands.

As for Stephen Vukchich... what did you try to say? That the Bosnian Church was important in Bosnia? Well, it was. ;) --PaxEquilibrium 22:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite block

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