Aniyunwiya
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August 2013
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- * [[Charles L. Rogers M.D. M.D.H.], Physician/Oncologist, Cherokee Nation of Mexico Principal Chief
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- The tribe has a government, led by a Principal Chief. Other leaders include White Chief, and a [Red Chief. Charles L. "Jahtlohi" Kingfisher Rogers [[Doctor of Medicine|M.D.]] [[Homeopathy|M.D.H.]]
- an old man and worn out by hardship, he sank under the effort and died alone and unattended, it i< said — near the village of San Fernando, Mexico, in August of that year. Rumors having come of his
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File permission problem with File:CharlesRogersMexicanCherokee.jpg.gif
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Disambiguation link notification for August 19
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August 2013
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Hello, Aniyunwiya. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you are affiliated with some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article Cherokee Nation of Mexico, you may have a conflict of interest or close connection to the subject.
All editors are required to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view content policy. People who are very close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may cause them to inadvertently edit in ways that make the article either too flattering or too disparaging. People with a close connection to a subject are not absolutely prohibited from editing about that subject, but they need to be especially careful about ensuring their edits are verified by reliable sources and writing with as little bias as possible.
If you are very close to a subject, here are some ways you can reduce the risk of problems:
- Avoid or exercise great caution when editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with.
- Be cautious about deletion discussions. Everyone is welcome to provide information about independent sources in deletion discussions, but avoid advocating for deletion of articles about your competitors.
- Avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam).
- Exercise great caution so that you do not accidentally breach Wikipedia's content policies.
Please familiarize yourself with relevant content policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, verifiability of information, and autobiographies.
For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have a conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for organizations. Thank you. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:10, 21 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Please do not add or change content, as you did to Cherokee Nation of Mexico, without verifying it by citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
Bibliography of Wikipedia
editI suggest you read about Wikipedia. Bibliography of Wikipedia is a start, and Broughton has his book online for you to read. --DThomsen8 (talk) 19:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
When you post on a talk page, it is very helpful to mention articles with Wikilinks. --DThomsen8 (talk) 19:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- Dear Dthomsen8, thank you VERY much for the sage advice. I will take it to heart and do my homework. I don't have any dogs so I cant claim they ate it... just ornery two old cats. Aniyunwiya (talk) 20:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
Welcome to Wikipedia: check out the Teahouse!
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Hello! Aniyunwiya,
you are invited to the Teahouse, a forum on Wikipedia for new editors to ask questions about editing Wikipedia, and get support from peers and experienced editors. Please join us!
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I, and the rest of the hosts, would be more than happy to answer any questions you have! SarahStierch (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear SarahStierch, thank you very much... I will very soon as time permits! Aniyunwiya (talk) 18:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
Name description on WikiProject Religion
editI am popping by from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion where I saw you recently added your name. As a long time Wikipedia editor I wanted to give you some unsolicited advice that might help you around here. I hope this isn't too forward of me and that you receive this in good faith.
Editing Wikipedia can be a slow and arduous back and forth process. Sometimes taking months or even years to make a great article. We encourage new editors to be Be Bold, but part of that encouragement comes with the acceptance of other editors coming right back and being equally as bold in the opposite direction. When this happens, we are encouraged to assume good faith. Even if another editor gets nasty, the best course of action for you is to practice Wikipedia:Civility. The reason for this is that Wikipedia is advanced through good sourcing and community consensus. The consensus part of that relies on building relationships and establishing cooperative communication. I challenge you to look at your entry for Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion and compare it to all the other entries on that page. Almost every other editor simply states their interests. Your entry on the other hand starts by trying to claim a position of authority, then makes accusations of religious bias from unnamed editors, and overall comes off as defensive and petty. I do not assume these characteristics are actually true of you, I am only telling you how it reads.
I researched some of your other interactions on Wikipedia and see that you have multiple times used a wonderful civil tone with conflicting editors. I encourage you to maintain that civility in all your communications. Even when it gets frustrating trying to learn all of our rules. Most long time Wikipedia editors take a lot of pride in trying to make Wikipedia:Neutral point of view become a reality. So claiming persecution by Wikipedia editors only makes us suspicious of your motives, not theirs. My family likely has some Cherokee DNA (walked the trail of tears, but don't know which tribe), so I personally encourage you to stick around and try to get your voice heard. Just remember, the best way to do that is to find editors to work with, not against. Your religious movement isn't the only minority view on Wikipedia. Follow in the paths of others and learn how they found success in editing: Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/New religious movements work group
I hope you find my advice helpful and non-contentious. Cheers, --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 19:37, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear Dkriegls, Thanks for the good advice, and I will take it to heart. The issue I had was all about "Indian politics" and not about wiki.... can you imagine anyone suggesting a Smithsonian source, James Mooney, from 150 years ago be deleted? If it were nor for Mooney, NO Native people would be free to practice the religions because in 1918 when he helped the Rosebud Sioux organize a church up under the 1st amendment it stopped the assassination of our spiritual leaders. Now, since most Indians have become Christianized, and Mooney wrote of our "pagan" past and a revival is happening, Mooney is politically incorrect. I KNOW I have to slash and burn some things on my article, just don't have time in the next couple of days, and will really take the time to do it RIGHT! We are just afraid political forces in Indian Country want us deleted. Kudos for the advice. Aniyunwiya (talk) 21:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC) Anuyunwiya
- Trust me, good sources always win out in the end. You probably need to research your source more and ask the opposing editor for their source. Web links or screen shots of text work great at building consensus. If one of your sources is being challenged, I will be happy to take an honest look at it and tell you want the problem is. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 22:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear Dkriegls, thanks again... I will try not to be so paranoid. After the Civil War, the Cherokee Nation's factions reserved the right, by treaty to continue a war that has lasted between our factions for centuries.... as long as we kept peace with the USA and other tribes. The Cherokee faction in Tahlequah, one of three USA recognizd trbes,got caught on video saying they spent a million taxpayer dollars in one year attacking like us groups not recognized by the USA... they treated the Eastern Band the same before they got federally recognized.... now they are all ganging up on the rest of the "category 4" Cherokee... it is all about federal money, and we don't even want or need a cent. I'll get busy doing more referencing tomorrow... or slashing. Aniyunwiya (talk) 03:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
- Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, Shiite Muslim/Sunni Muslim, Catholic/Protestant, Scientology/The entire internet, Climate change scientists/oil industry, Chicago Bear fans/Green Bay Packer fans....etc. Evey ongoing war in the human world spills onto Wikipedia. It can get really frustrating. Rest assured Wikipedia has worked through these debates before and will continue to do so. Stay positive and push onward ;) Dkriegls (talk to me!) 15:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
- Since you are talking about my edits, I'll interject. The Mooney piece being mentioned was an unpublished letter—published material, of course, is fine, although of course Mooney is criticized for factual errors by both Cherokee and Kiowa people (and these criticisms are published). Anyunwiya has had difficulties distinguishing between primary and secondary sources. I've tried to remove the unpublished and self-published "references," as well as inappropriate social media links. The conflict of interest problems with the article are real, and the article is clearly promotional. Some of the information suggested is extremely questionable and uncited, such as suggestions of a 1720s Cherokee migration to Mexico. Anything that controversial would have to be cited. I am not affiliated with the Cherokee Nation and don't appreciate speculation about my personal business or motives. -Uyvsdi (talk)Uyvsdi
Dear Uyvsdi, I pushed the thank you button for every each and every edit you made, and as you requested, and I did not repost anything without providing references. We are new to this, but we are not recalcitrant. I got a score of 89 on the Miller Analogy test when I entered graduate school and I am a triple nine society candidate BUT I am new to this world. I said that we will be removing "promotional" things as time permits, but your taking issue with the 1721 migration seems counterintuitive given the evidence. Why would in international hero like Sequoyah, advanced in years as he was, with full access to any and all Cherokeee documents of his time, who invented a writing system for and mastered every dialect of our language be so convinced by a letter (sent up from them at Lake Chapala near Guadalahara) to Tahlequah, be so sure that we had relatives in Mexico that he would risk his life several times to go and look for them? If you want to take issue with The Smithsonian Institution and Mooney, go ahead... but as we said, if you can provide records in Cherokee syllabary proving us and Mooney and Sequoyah wrong, please do so. We don't mind working with you, but consider that you don't know us but just what you have access to in books . This recent fight about Mooney is political in nature. Anoother problem is some of the elderly elders have jobs they might lose if they revealed too much truth. Mooney has hundreds of descendants in The Cherokee Nation and some non traditionalist people just didnt like him saying that we basically didnt have any Cherokee culture left by 1860 and had been assimilated. Our nation has been at WAR over this and other issues since 1866 when the planters and farmers who walked the Trail of Tears kicked the stone age Cherokee like us off the rolls who left early because we knew what was going to happen eventually. Things are changing now as we speak and atttitudes are changing and the real unredacted Cherokee history is being revealed. When most Cherokees converted to Christianity and had been treated so badly and just wanted to fit in to America, they just didnt want the real history dredged up. That is changing now, and we have The Original Keetoowah Society, who kept it all secrets for so long, backing us up and vice versa. The US courts ruled that there would be no Cherokee governments at all nowadays if it were not for them, and most of them don't want anything whatsoever to do with those governments or their redacted histories. Once again, thanks for being helpful but we will let you know when we disagree. Sorry if I offended but I was seeking help gthat was not seemingly prejudiced. You have done a LOT of wonderful work on wiki, but all Cherokee history is not in books. Heck, we were given by the Mexican government the entire archives of Cherokee-related documents at our re-recognition and we will be revealing things no one knows outside of the Mexicans and us ever knew. I will get busy either providing corrected refs or take some things down ASAP... I am just too busy tonight. Be well. Aniyunwiya (talk) 02:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
- Aniyunwiya, it sounds like you are making a lot of amazing discoveries about your people's history. That is really awesome! Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not the first place to get that history published. We have a policy against Original Research being published on Wikipedia. If you would like this hidden history to be published on Wikipedia, you would first have to get it published somewhere else. Preferably in an anthropology journal or magazine. We know this policy puts undue limits on cultures with rich oral traditions, but it is necessary for our safeguarding against fraud. You have again tried to make references to the authority of your claims. This method of argument is known as the argument from authority, and is not considered a valid argument for inclusion of information on Wikipedia. Remember your goal is to try to convince someone on the other side of the keyboard who has never met you and knows nothing of who is an authority in your culture. This may sound counter to the way your culture operates, but it is the way Wikipedia operates. We need primary sources. You mentioned The Smithsonian Institution. I would suggest you try to find contemporary sources from within that institutions that support your claims. Try contacting the current researchers there for help. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 05:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear Dkriegls, I still have the reading(s) you assigned me to do, but there are already other Cherokee related Wikipedia articles that quote the same source (report #19 as I recall but might be wrong) that I quote but on different matters. It was an annual report and was huge. Why is James Mooney's work from 150 years ago not a good source just because some recent American Indian people wrote negative opinions of his work... especially since the Cherokee culture was pretty much extinct by that time and the language and syllabary are just now being revived? Mooney worked with dozens of different cultures all over the U.S. His work was a report to the Ethnology Bureau in D.C. at the Smithsonian, but was later published in a book titled "Myths of The Cherokee."Aniyunwiya (talk) 06:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
- I'll take a look for you and let you know. Would you kindly provide a link to the source here so I don't have to go looking for it?Dkriegls (talk to me!) 15:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
It was originally part of the "Nineteenth Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, 1897–98" republished as "Myths Of The Cherokee." You can read a Optically scanned version at http://archive.org/stream/mythsofcherokee00moon/mythsofcherokee00moon_djvu.txt
or
... and please take note of pages 146 and 107 about the "Lost Cherokee" Sequoyah went searching for several times, and died trying.
Aniyunwiya (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
A bowl of strawberries for you!
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Keep up the good work. DThomsen8 (talk) 14:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC) |
Dear Dthomsen8, Thanks for the strawberries. I planted 32 plants last years, and the harvest was disappointing... maybe the 50 pound Raccoon spotted in the neighborhood and his family got most of them... or maybe the deer who left tracks in my 12 4'x4' "square foot garden" raised beds. We got just too much rain this year, and what we did get was pretty soggy and rotted fast! But those plants are spreading out fast and will probably take over the front lawn in a year or two. Aniyunwiya (talk) 17:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)Aniyunwiya
Mexican indigenous groups
editMexico does not officially recognize any Cherokee group within their borders, state or federal, this is easily verified as the National Institute of Indigenous Languages INALI keeps a meticulous list of indigenous groups. Cherokees are not on that list. The claim you are advancing is simply false.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
LOL! ROTFL! That's really funny Maunus. Mighty bold talk from somebody who wasn't there when it happened... and is hiding behind an alias and behind a keyboard.
Did it ever occur to you we aren't on the INALI list because we no longer speak our original language and speak Iroquoian, which is not one of Mexico's indigenous languages? Our ancestors came down from The Mexican province of Coahuila y Texas to fight alongside General Adrian Woell, and they assisted him in retaking San Antonio... because greedy lying Texans, like Mirabeau Lamar... Americans who betrayed us and stole our land, murdered our chief Bowl in cold blood, to steal his sword and the metal cylinder (which is in Tahlequah) containing our treaties... leaving him unburied for many years. We had taken enough of being killed and driven...
...and so now we have to deal with your impertinence and ignorance?
Mexico was sure glad to get the return of the Mexican Lance battle flag which dates back to the Revolution of 1910 and the breastplate of a fallen soldier of the Fourth Light Infantry which shows a “4 L” on it, which was also returned to the Republic of Mexico in this ceremony... to put next to their Texian flag captured at the Alamo.
The DIF of Coahuila (Desarrollo Integral de la Familia) Coahuilla didn't mind the 10,000 check we donated to them.
I am sure the following Mexican official will be just delighted that you just called them liars:
The President of the Coahuila College of Historic Research Professor Jesus Alfonso Perez Arreola Director of Coahuila’s Consejo Editorial Professor Arturo Berruteo Gonzalez Then Coahuila's Governor and now Mexico's Secretary of Agriculture Enrique Martinez y Martinez Director General of the DIF Coahuila M.C. Enrique Martinez Morales, Don Santiago Elias Castro Escobedo, then/now? Procurador Social y de Atencion Ciudadana, Then/now? Zaragoza Presidente Municipal Jesus Rodriguez President of the Coahuila College of Research Wonso Arreola Perez
and let's not forget:
Tahlequah, Oklahoma bowmaker Al Herrin, who is a publisher with a Ph.D., is a member of the Oklahoma Cherokee Nation
Why don't you come out of the shadows and call two VIPs:
Ronald F. Ederer Esq., former United States Assistant Attorney General for the Western District of Texas 210.573.3566 Antonio Garcia Amor, Notario #2 of Acapulco, Guerrero, former Mexican Senator 210.545.9136 San Antonio; 52.744.482.2134 or 52.744.482.2594
... and don't forget to call Senator James Mountain "Jim" Inhofe, who is the senior United States senator from Oklahoma... and of course his (according to you) "fraudulent" May 8, 2001 insertion in the U.S. Congressional Record which lauds Dr Rogers and his family for their search for the grave of the famous Cherokee Sequoyah.
See http://cherokeediscovery.com/cnmrecognition.html Aniyunwiya (talk) 17:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
- ROFL indeed. Accepting a donation and giving official recognition is not the same. You havent presented a single source that supports any of the claims you have just made, including the alleged support of Mexican officials. I say it is because there are none. In any case none of those officials are authorized to grant official recognition of indigenous groups in Mexico, this is done by CDI and INALI alone. It may be that there is an organization that is officially recognized as an organization. But not as an indigenous group. Btw. speaking Algonquian and not being an original indigenous group did not keep the Kickapoo from becoming recognized by INALI. As for calling people liars, that is not what I am about - I dont even think you are a liar, you may very well actually believe that your organization is officially recognized in Mexico. Unfortunately you seem to be wrong and you will need very good reliably published sources to suggest otherwise.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Licenciatura
editA Mexican licentiatura en medico cirujano is not equivalent to an American MD degree, it is a basic college degree at the BA level. Furthermore according to this policy: Wikipedia:CREDENTIAL#Academic_titles we do not use academic titles in front of names in articles but only include verifiable facts about how the degrees was obtained when relevant. Whether or not Charles L Rogers has a medical degree is presumably irrelevant to his work as president of the Cherokee Nation of Mexico, and hence does not merit inclusion.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:43, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Maunus,
So what? This is en.wikipedia.com NOT USA.wikipedia.com. Dr Rogers degree is an MD from a medical school recognized by the World Health Organization.
Wikipedia is not just an online encyclopedia for the U.S.A. is it? Who are YOU to decide what is 'relevant?' The English language Wiki covers more than the USA does it not?
Are you sure you are just being biased and obstructionist? Why don't you just stop embarrassing yourself?
By the way, aren't you required to reveal any possible C.O.I. affiliations you have on your user page? Yours is totally blank. Maybe we need to kick your issues upstairs... like the fact that the CDI wasn't created until 2003, and you didn't reveal that... and we were recognized under the laws in 2001.
INALI's only bailiwick has to do with languages.
Secretaría de Gobernación makes the decisions in Mexico, as you are about to learn. They said in our phone call with them this morning that they don't appreciate your wasting of their precious time.
That having been said, we had planned on filing new paperwork with CDI anyway, and since our close friends sit on the CDI, they said it will be sailing through, so I guess we have YOU to thank that things will be moving up! Aniyunwiya (talk) 02:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
- You were trying to claim an American title of Dr. with a Mexican licenciatura. That does not work. A person with a licenciatura cannot call themselves Dr. in Mexico or in the US.It is wikipedia policy that decides that Mr. Rogers' credentials are irrelevant, not me. According to wikipedia policy even if Charles Rogers does have an MD degree, for which you have provided no valid source, we do not include that title in front of his name. Good luck with being recognized by the secretaria de gobernacion and CDI, I have worked with actual indigenous communities in Mexico who have worked for the past five years to become recognized with no luck. You must have some good palancas I suppose. In Mexico being recognized as an indigenous group depends on having an indigenous language, which is why INALI determines which groups are and aren't recognized as such CDI. The CDI was created in 2003 when INI was split into INALI and CDI - INI also didn't recognize any Cherokee groups which by the way is called cheroqui in Spanish. I am not required to reveal anything about myself, but I can tell you that I have no affiliations with any North American tribes or governmental agencies if that is what you suspect. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:23, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Apparent legal threat
editPlease read WP:NLT. The statement "There are serious legal consequences for violating our rights. see http://nativeamericanchurches.org/2590-2/" appears to be a legal threat and can lead to your being blocked (although not by me, I'll simply take you to WP:ANI. I'm asking you to make it explicit that you do not intend to take legal action or suggest that others do so. That's about the only way you can avoid a block. This is standard policy. Dougweller (talk) 10:42, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
- Very good advice, I want you to follow it.--DThomsen8 (talk) 15:21, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
- Apparantly you didn't bother to read the URL or you would see what legal action can be taken and who legal action is taken against and when our rights are violated. Of course I am not issuing against present company! I was just stating some facts.
Now, concerning Wikipedia policy....
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to allow Cherokees of Texas to use sources and content not allowed to us when we are much the same people?
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to arrogantly admit that you just don't bother to mess with Cherokees of Texas anymore as it is a waste of time BUT you are in an organized front against Cherokees of Mexico now?
Is is standard Wikipedia policy for a Rhodium lever contributor who admits his religious bias to state that we are a "Christian" Church when that is what the IRS says is our secondary classification? Could he not read plain English? He unknowingly opened the door to our USA federal recognition as part of the ONLY off reservation Native American Church. Good job!
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to say we are a 501(c)3 when that is obviously not true and the IRS says otherwise? Is is standard Wikipedia policy to say most of our members live in the USA when you have absolutely no clue as to where they live? Our Red Chief Reynaldo Vann and his entire family are from Mexico. A little research would have turned up that information on the family's Yahoo group.
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to state that we are a different bunch of "new agey" people when we are in fact federally recognized Native American Religious practitioners with special rights? I must admit we withheld those fact to allow you to show your intentional bias towards us. It is not obvious that we are the very same people with the very same faces who were recognized 12 years ago today by decree of the Governor of Coahuila.
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to allow Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma to self promote and jse a perfectly good template but to disallow us the same privilege?
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to favor Indians recognized by the most Indian non-friendly government in the world namely The United States of America, when the USA is not the only English speaking country and Wikipedia is International in scope?
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to say that our Chief's medical credential cannot be found when a Google search can turn them up in a few seconds?
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to intimate that a world famous oncologist, who is a national hero in Mexico has medical credentials and uses medical practices that are unsound when a large percentage of MDs who practice in the USA who have the similar credentials but choose not to practice in the *pinche* *salada* gringo racist against Mexicans USA? I wonder what the Mexican government would think of that... or maybe they already are thinking that as of two days ago... one never knows about these things! As Maunus said, we probably have some palancos (politically powerful friends... or did me mean to insult the Secretary of Agriculture of Mexico, the #4 man in Mexico is a "tool") in Mexico City... but then Maunus didn't know that our palancos in Mexico City were Cherokees also!
Cherokees of Texas and Cherokees of Mexico share that very same history, yet you few highly ranked Wikipedia contributors openly state that you disallow Cherokees of Mexico what is allowed Cherokees of Texas.
I guess it is standard Wikipedia policy that what is good for the goose is not good for the gander on Wikipedia. No wonder Wikipedia has a reputation for being irrelevant and full of misinformation... and that is provable standard Wikipedia policy based on what you have said and done on this talk page, which you now threaten to run me off of.
That is called intentional bias.
Is is standard Wikipedia policy to say sources from 100+ years ago when a culture was in full flower and Smithsonian ethnographers were amongst them are not as reliable as "modern" sources? Hell, moderns ethnographers and archaeologists can't seem to agree on much of anything nowadays, including the Bering Straits migration nonsense.
What is going on here is called "political correctness," which seems to be standard Wikipedia policy.
Wow, what a great bunch of wonderful cooperative public spirited like you guys people run Wikipedia.
So let me let his straight... People who are religiously biased against authentic federally recognized Native American Religious Practitioners; people who are can't read plain English and misquote IRS websites; people don't have the basic skills to use search engines; people who allow allow one article privileges but don't allow another article the same privileges hold sway over, and use intimidation and threats against those who CAN do all those things?
I wonder what the New York Times of The Wall Street journal would think of all that?
But I guess it is against Wikipedia policy to say that also? I guess freedom of speech is also against Wikipedia policy.
Is is against Wikipedia policy to threaten to ban a contributor for exercising free speech on his own articles talk page?
I guess it is. Or as the old sheriff used to say "you in a heap of trouble boys!" You guys have dug yourselves a pit for someone else and have fallen into it. Need a rope tossed down to you? Just ask! We are here to help!
After all. Its all about building concensus here at Wikipedia. I didn't score 89 on the grad school admission Miller analogy test to let you guys pull a fast one on us.
Now, lets starting talking about ropes and how much they cost. You guys are going to be getting mighty hungry pretty quick down there in that pit you just fell into... and let's not forget there is no running water down there either... bugs, snakes could fall in too... maybe even a predator or two at night with no fire? Did you bring sleeping bags? Rain gear?
As Igor said as he was digging that grave on the movie Young Frankenstein "Could be worse... could be raining!" And then it instantly started raining!
When that old bald headed fool guy was found buried up to his neck in the movie "How The West Was Won" was asked by a passerby who did that to him, he exclaimed "T'werent Mormons!"
Aniyunwiya (talk) 17:07, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
- Listen, the policy related problems that you have run into are these. When an organization claims to be officially recognized by a nation or state as having a special status, that requires very good sources, the organizations own word does not suffice, nor do sources simply repeating the organizations own claim suffice. When there are such good sources regarding the Cherokee Nation of Mexico we will be happy to include that claim. Similarly claims of continuity between current organizations and historical groups require reliably published academic accounts that demonstrate that continuity. You have not provided such sources. This is laid out in detail in our policy on sourcing: WP:RS and WP:V. Also, Per policy we don't include degrees or titles in front of the names of any doctors, medical or otherwise (exceptions being when the title has becme part of the name under which they have become famous such as Dr. Drew or Dr. Phil), this means that Mr. Rogers' credentials are not relevant, because we will not be able to call him Dr. Rogers anyway. The comparison with the Cherokee Nation of Texas is justified, and that article should probably be fixed as well to conform with policy. However, the problem with wikipedia is that often with controversial topics as soon as something is fixed it is un-fixed again. This means that editors have to focus on cleaning up one mess at a time.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:00, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
- Understood. We will take it a step at a time. As I said on your talk page Maunus, that you are mistaken, and that Gubernacion makes the decisions, not INALI, etc... they just post Gubernacion's decisions. It's been 12 years to this very date since we were recognized for the FOURTH time, and the laws changed in 2003... that doesn't mean we are not still recognized, just that you cant find it in some archived webpage.
Here is some recent news published on Austin TX bilingual newspaper: see http://laprensaofaustin.com/uploads/2013_15_pages.pdf
Chief Charles L Rogers will be speaking at the ESB Mexican American Cultural Center, the Parks Department of the City of Austin and the Battle of Medina Historical Society present “Save Tejano History Symposium.” Emma S. Barrientos Mexican American Cultural Center 600 River Street Austin, Texas Saturday September 28, 2013 2-5 P.M.. In keeping with the Battle of Medina Historical Society’s mission statement there will be authors and historians bringing to life the real story of Texas and the contributions of our Tejano ancestors. Book swill be available for purchase. Light refreshments will be served. There will be reenactors in period attire. This is a free event.
Aniyunwiya (talk) 21:33, 31 August 2013 (UTC) aniyunwiya
- If the Secretaria de Gobernacion had made such a decision it would be verifiable. Government decisions like that are published on their websites and in the Diario of the Government. It would also very likely have resulted in substancial media coverage because the secretaria has never before made a decision to recognize a US tribe within its borders (or indeed any tribe because Mexican indigenous groups ar not organized into tribes). The government through INALI keeps meticulous lists of indigenous communities in, including also groups who no longer have living native speakers of their languages and therefore are not considered indigenous under Mexican law. Again none of these lists include mention of Cheroqui/Cherokee. So until there are good third party sources that report of such an official recognition it does not exist for wikipedia purposes. News Coverage of a cultural event by the Chief is not such a source.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
- Far too much for anyone to answer (see WP:TLDR). But a couple of things to make clear - you don't have any articles on Wikipedia, see WP:OWN. You've created it but that doesn't make it yours. And there is no freedom of speech on Wikipedia either (there's a lot of confusion about US Constitutional protection of freedom of speech - the First Amendment doesn't apply to private organisations but to federal and state governments. See WP:FREESPEECH. As for medical credentials, are you referring to the same ones you told me about or is this something new? Dougweller (talk) 21:05, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Talk page indenting
editWhen you reply to anyone on your talk page or theirs, always indent with a colon (:) or more to indent.--DThomsen8 (talk) 15:28, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
August 2013
edit
Your recent edits to Talk:Cherokee Nation of Mexico could give Wikipedia contributors the impression that you may consider legal or other "off-wiki" action against them, or against Wikipedia itself. Please note that making such threats on Wikipedia is strictly prohibited under Wikipedia's policies on legal threats and civility. Users who make such threats may be blocked. If you have a dispute with the content of any page on Wikipedia, please follow the proper channels for dispute resolution. Please be sure to comment on content, not contributors, and where possible make specific suggestions for changes supported by reliable independent sources and focusing especially on verifiable errors of fact. Thank you. -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
- I am forwarding this message from Chief Rogers: "PLEASE ALLOW OUR CHEROKEE NATION OF MEXICO THE COURTESY OF BEING ABLE TO COMMUNICATE BY E MAIL WITH A SUPERVISOR OF THE FOUR USER NAMES OF THE GROUP OF THE OF THE WIKIPEDIA EDITORS WE HAVE BEEN SPEAKING WITH AS WE HAVE A LIST OF OUR CONCERNS.(NOT ABOUT THE MATERIAL SUBMITTED OR REJECTED) THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS COURTESY."
...end of message from Chief Rogers. I explained to him about going to Conflict Resolution, but he asked me to forward this message to you folks before we go there. He is used to dealing with organizations with a vertical chain of command, and has never seen one with what seems to have a horizontal chain of command. Thank you very much and have a nice day. Aniyunwiya (talk) 19:09, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
- There are no "supervisors" I am afraid. Wikipedia is not hierarchically organized, nor does it have a chain of command. We don't give or take orders, we discuss and reach consensus based on policy. We have a group of administrators who can enforce policy when necessary by blocking other editors' ability to contribute, or by imposing sanctions on editors who don't follow the rules. Administrators can be contacted at WP:ANI, but one should be sure to have understood the rules and policies before doing so, as otherwise it may be oneself who ends up facing sactions.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Loss of good faith.
editAniyunwiya I wanted to let you know that your insistence on using legal threats to get your way on Wikipedia has caused me to stop my good faith assists toward you. It's a shame to because I had been doing some interesting research on the source you wanted to use. I can only hope that this loss of a good faith friendly editor encourages you to learn our conflict resolution policies and stop trying to solve your editing conflicts on your own. --Dkriegls (talk to me!) 17:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't issue any legal threats. I posted an URL that stated legal penalties applicable to law enforcement officials only.
"Believe nothing of what you red, and one half of what you see" Benj. Franklin
It has however become crystal clear that our article is being held to completely different standards than very similar articles... and that religious bias is at the top of the agenda being pushed.
Aniyunwiya (talk) 17:32, 31 August 2013 (UTC) Aniyunwiya
- Aniyunwiya, you don't own any articles on Wikipedia and in as much, no article can be called "our article" by any group other than Wikipedia as a whole community. When you post a link to an article about possible legal actions that can be taken on your behalf as a native peoples, how else do you expect that action to be interpreted? The article you linked to talked about civil rights. Wikipedia is a non-government based website, I find in almost unimaginable to see how it could violate your civil rights. I am happy that you are now claiming this was not your intent, but please be aware how your actions are perceived by the rest of the Wikipedia community.
- My personal observation is that you are not taking the time to properly learn and implement our policies. If the war you believe exists between two tribes is really spilling over to Wikipedia, then your editing efforts are being diverted because they understand our policies better, not because they have any privileged power here. From my observations, this war is not the source of you editing frustrations, it is your insistence on getting your way without citing sources properly. Earlier, I encouraged you to practice WP:Good Faith to avoid getting in editing wars with other editors. You did not heed that advice and now here we are. You can still reverse course; take a some time to compose your thoughts and find better sources...they are out there...then come back with a can-do attitude for improving Wikipedia. Dkriegls (talk to me!) 21:36, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
September 2013
edit Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of published material to articles as you apparently did to Coahuila. Please cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. The website www.cherokeediscovery.com does not constitute a reliable source, as it is self-published and promote a fringe point of view. Thank you. -Uyvsdi (talk) 04:08, 5 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
- Aniyunwiya, you are on very thin ice, and certainly likely to be suspended or blocked if you continue as you are doing right now. I wish you well, but you must take care, learn about what is allowed here, and slow down. --DThomsen8 (talk) 12:57, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
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