BBX

Irish nationality law

Welcome to Wikipedia. I'm afraid I have had to take out the paragraph you added to Northern Ireland, because it is much more complicated than that. You are on the right track, but you need to read a bit more and try again. Take a look at Irish nationality law. Is there something in the Anglo-Irish Treaty that specifically provides for dual nationality? (I don't think so, but I haven't read it for years - but I think it just allowed residents of the Irish Free State to have British nationality if they wanted it, that they wouldn't be "orphaned" by the secession). I think it is just an informal arrangement - both jurisdictions issue to passports to residents of Northern Ireland and both recognise each other's passports, even when the place of birth is clearly in Northern Ireland. If you do write something, it needs its own paragraph heading and not stuck at the front of the introduction. I hope I haven't discouraged you, but you did pick probably one of the most difficult articles on Wikipedia to edit! --Red King 00:56, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Yep that's understandable, but I actually got my information from the Good Friday Agreement, and informally because I myself am an Irish National from Northern Ireland.

In Article 1, section (vi) is states:

"(The two governments) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

I'll edit in a little bit about that since Nationality is a big part of any Northern Ireland discussion. Have a read over it if ya have the time when I'm finised and let me know if it' not legitimate or if there's any problems with it, cheers. User:BBX 15:55, 29 January 2006

Your contribution to Irish Nationality law is good and is in the right context there. I agree that something along those lines ought to go in the Northern Ireland article. But I think it really needs its own paragraph. It just didn't fit well with where you put it first. Actually, the dual nationality thing predates the Belfast Agreement: Irish Nationality law from at least 1937 (probably from 1922) has said that anyone born on the island of Ireland has a right to claim Irish Citizenship. So the clause in the BA/GFA is probably a compensation for the changing the Irish Constitution to tone down the teritorial claim. You might want to try amending British nationality law article too, to see how people react there. You have to be really careful when amending Northern Ireland to be scrupulously neutral because you are bound to upset someone. You need to upset both sides equally! --Red King 00:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

By the way, to sign your discussion edits, type four ~'s --Red King 00:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see you already did it - and picked the right place for it. I've moved the wording about a little - I hope you don't mind. --Red King 00:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I've noticed that LoL, I had a jook in the discussion section of the Northern Ireland pages, and it seems to be one source for controversy here, not surprising either. I'll stay neutral for sure, but I hope to add any facts or statistics if I find any that might improve the page.

Thanks for Your help. BBX 02:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Northern Ireland

Please be considerate of the removal of the terms "unofficial" and "relaxed" from the Northern Ireland article. The terms "De Facto" "former" in relation to the flag do more than enough to get the point across that the flag is no longer official, and adding unofficial makes it seem like it never was official. Additionally, the border is no more relaxed than any other border in the EU (and even between parts of Europe that lie outside of the EU, such as the German/Swiss border). This rational was expressed in these edit summaries, so please be sure not to blindly revert. --jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 13:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The old government of Northern Ireland flag was never the official flag of Northern Ireland, additionally it was the flag that represented the old Stormount government, which was (in the words of it's first "First Minister"; "A Protestant government, for the Protestant people", a government which oppressed the Nationalist/Republican and Catholic population of Northern Ireland, and therefore is seen as offensive to Nationalists/Republicans and Catholics as it represents oppressions and unjustice. The usage of it in itself shows onsidedness on the part of this "enclyclopedia", but I've noticed that it's the way. Removal of the word "Unofficial" just further shows that the views of Nationalists arne't repected here. Using the term Unofficial shows exactly what the flag is; Unofficial, it never has been the flag of Northern Ireland, and never will be. It has as much right to be there as the Irish Tricolour, yet I don't see anyone putting that up. I'm sure it would be taken down anyway.

The border is relaxed also, there is no border as far as people from Ireland as concerned and I mean ALL the people of Ireland, not just Nationalists and Republicans. Is there any stop points, check points, clearance areas ANYTHING between the six counties and the twenty six counties? No.

I get a lot of anti Irish Nationalist or at least Pro Unionist vibes here, but I'll continue to be correct in what I write and try and give an unbias opinion on the situation and State of northern Ireland, since no one else seems to be willing to do so. I have no doubt that a few people want me blocked from contributing to the northern Ireland article, it wouldn't be the first time an Irish Nationalist has been censored, but I would at least like to find a common ground in giving an unbias view on issues, instead of simply ignoring Nationalst views, common sense and the truth.

Looking back through the article, there is some common ground I can accept. Unofficial is correct, however I won't pursue it anymore. I would however like to add in the section under the "Survery results" pertaining to how northern Ireland people view the situation, as it gives a clear, unbias and informative viewpoint on what exactly northern Ireland people believe.

As to the flag: I may have hastily taken another editor's word on that. I think the reason it's listed there is because it's was the flag of a government that once (most recently, if you don't count the UK?) controlled Northern Ireland. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know as much as I'd like to about the situation there, and I could've simply assumed that what was asserted in the edit summary was the truth. I would like, however, to point out that I come from a family of Irish immigrants with strong Nationalist sentiments. They didn't transfer to me (per se), as I'm removed by two generations, but I, at the very least, am in no way trying to push Unionist of Protestant views. And as for the border, as I mentioned on the talk page, that same lax-ness has been evident at every inter-EU border crossing I've made. --jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 17:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The government was suspended, then collapsed after the Irish Civil rights movement protests began against Catholics being discriminated again by the Unionist government, which Britain turned a blind eye to. Thankfully Nationalists have slowly but surely gained a voice and the days of oppression are [I]virtually[/I] over (although issues including jobs, housing and policing still raise a lot of questions). When the so called government went, the flag went to. I understand your point on the border situation, I'll accept your word on that since I believe you're probably only trying to remind unbiased the facts you've been given, but living in the north of Ireland, and living through the "troubles" I know how offense flag is, kinda like flying a Nazi flag in Germany, to the Jews.

Why not find an unbiased flag to represent northern Ireland, perhaps the flag of St. Patrick (the red cross)? I don't know how "high up" you are here, but you do seem to have a lot of stroke, so I believe a healthy discussion between independant observers (i.e. not just Irish Nationalists and Unionists squabbling) might be a good thing.

I've opened up a discussion on the talk page under Talk:Northern Ireland#Flag Status; bring these points up there. And just a preliminary word of precaution to remain calm (not at all in an accusatory tone, and hopefully you won't take it that way). I completely understand how easy it is to become frustrated with a situation when it seems everyone is ganging up on you (it happens to everyone), but be sure to keep your head: if you do end up getting frustrated and start accusing of POV pushing, chances are you wont be taken seriously. Keep WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF in mind during the discussion: the majority of the people here are not, in fact, pushing a pov and are doing their best to simply keep the encyclopedia neutral, though they may not have the same awareness of the issue as you do due to your proximity (e.g. me). In addition to this, keep in mind that your pov may also be showing through due to your proximity - there's nothing wrong in having a POV, and chances are it will come out at some point while working on the project. That being said, I'm not trying to say you already have jumped to these conclusions - merely issuing a preliminary word of warning. You've done well keeping a cool head thus far, and if you have good information backing up your arguments chances are you'll convince the community. People are generally open to new ideas here, sometimes it just takes patience. Oh, and if you do wish to reply to this message, please do so on my talk page - it's easier for me to keep track of that way. Simply click on the ^{you were saying?} link in my signature (or right there, too.) I've already moved these last two replies to my talk page (under "Response to Northern Ireland"). And be sure to sign comments on talk pages using ~~~~ - again, it's easier to keep track of conversations that way. --jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 21:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

3RR

Please do not keep undoing other people's edits without discussing them first. This is considered impolite and unproductive. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia under the three-revert rule, which states that nobody may revert an article to a previous version more than three times in 24 hours. (Note: this also means editing the page to reinsert an old edit. If the effect of your actions is to revert back, it qualifies as a revert.) Thank you. Jkelly 18:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Could you please elaborate more? I know I have added in parts (which, as far a I am aware, is the whole point of this website). I don’t doubt I have taken out work of another person, but I would like to know where exactly I have taken out other people's work, so I understand what exactly it is. I would also like to point out that my own work has been removed on occasion - after discussion in some cases, also, I find that removing my unbiased section in favour of misleading information on it's own, is also extremely impolite on the part of whomever has done it. Thanks. BBX 19:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Please remember to sign your comments on discussion pages

Hi - it makes life easier for all if you use --~~~~ after your postings. Or just click the squiggle tab to the right of the "No W" tab at the top of the edit box. All the best. --Red King 00:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem, I'm fairly new here so I sometimes forget to leave my tag :~(.

BBX 00:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

^ It works :).

Tuaisceart Éireann

BBX, I'm afraid Jonto is right (and you used up your 3 reverts). It is enough to have Tuascairt Éireann in the info box. Repeating it is superfluous and just reads like PoV pushing. It's not a competition. --Red King 22:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know there was a debate about it, I'll take your word for it though. I'd like to point out though to yourself (someone who I think will probably listen to me LoL) Irish is an official language of Northern Ireland per the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement, it's to be promoted in all schools to those who want to learn it, promoted through television and radio broadcasts etc. Ulster Scots/Scots is not an official language. Even when whoever changed it around to fit Ulster Scots in, it isn't isn't the one of the " Main Language's", since English, Irish and also Chinese is spoken far more commonly than Ulster Scots. Again, I would have no problem if it was, but facts say it isn't and we shouldn't say it is. English and Irish are the only official languages of Northern Ireland. I also don't like the way it says (at the bottom of the northern Ireland page) something about Irish being linked to sectarianism, while Ulster Scots isn't, despite Irish being an ancient language practiced by ALL the people of Ireland, even some Unionists learn it nowadays, while Ulster Scots was only invented a matter of years ago, with strong links to the Orange Order, which in turn has strong links to Loyalist Paramiliataries, so it makes no sense to label Irish as such, when really, the majority of northern Ireland would see Irish as the lesser of the two in terms of sectarianism.

Ulster Scots is neither an "Official" language of northern Ireland, nor a "Main Language" of northern Ireland, since the Asian languages would be above it. Like other pages, northern Ireland should have Our official languages listed, and they are English and Irish. User:BBX

BBX, when someone drops you a note, it is conventional to reply on their page (except for a few admins who regard themselves as much too important for that and some that are genuinely too busy). Anyway. What you say is true up to a point. Take Portadown. It is important to include the name in Irish as in 'Portadown (Port an Dúnáin in Irish, meaning "port of the fortress")', because it tells you about the origin of the name. In the case of Northern Ireland, all you are doing by adding Tuaisceart Éireann in the text (as opposed to the infobox) is to give a translation in another language, which is no more helpful than adding Nordierland or Irlanda del norte. Look at it another way. In ga:Tuaisceart Éireann, would you expect to see prominence to the phrase Northern Ireland in the text? (save you looking - it's not there). Parity of esteem doesn't come into it. It is an article in English, so non English words aren't appropriate unless they are particularly illuminating. And just in case you think its personal, have a look at the history of edits to Gort and Kinvara! --Red King 00:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

NI flag

I like your PSNI-derived flag. It might be a possible solution to the problem. Either way, it's a good addition to the page.

Cheers,

NotMuchToSay 23:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

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