Wikipedia:Files for discussion

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WP:FFD

XFD backlog
V	Nov	Total
CfD	13	13
TfD	11	11
MfD	3	3
FfD	1	1
RfD	57	57
AfD	0	0

Files for discussion (FfD) is for listing images and other media files which may be unneeded or have either free content or non-free content usage concerns. Files that have been listed here for more than 7 days are eligible for either deletion or removal from pages if either a consensus to do so has been reached or the nominator specifically requests deletion or removal and no objections are raised. To quote the non-free content criteria, "it is the duty of users seeking to include or retain content to provide a valid rationale; those seeking to remove or delete it are not required to show that one cannot be created." For undeletion requests, first contact the administrator who deleted the file. If you are unable to resolve the issue with that administrator, the matter should be brought to deletion review.

What not to list here

For concerns not listed below, if a deletion is uncontroversial, do not use this process. Instead tag a file with {{subst:prod}}. However, if the template is removed, please do not reinsert it; list the file for deletion then.
For speedy deletion candidates as well, do not use this page; instead use one of the speedy deletion templates. See the criteria for speedy deletion. These are: duplicates (where both files are on Wikipedia), thumbnails, broken files, non-existent files, non-commercial, "by permission" files and files which are not an image, sound file or video clip and have no encyclopedic use.
Files that have no source, have an unknown copyright, are unused or replaceable non-free, or are non-free without rationale can be marked so that they will be deleted after a week, and should not be listed on this page. Add one of the following to the file page:
1. {{subst:nsd}} if a file has no source indicated.
2. {{subst:nld}} if a file has a source but no licensing information.
3. {{subst:orfud}} if a file has a non-free copyright template but isn't used in any articles.
4. {{subst:rfu}} if a file has a non-free copyright template but could be replaced by a free file.
5. {{subst:dfu|reason}} if a file has a non-free copyright template but the rationale isn't sufficient or is disputed.
6. {{subst:nrd}} if a file has no non-free use rationale.
Redundant or duplicate files do not have to be listed here. Please use
1. {{db-f1|Full name of file excluding the "File:" prefix}} for speedy deletion if the other file is on Wikipedia, not on Commons
2. {{now commons|File:NEW FILENAME}} if the file now exists on Commons, or {{now commons}} for files with the same name on Commons. (Don't nominate protected images, they are usually locally uploaded and protected since they are used in an interface message or in a highly used template, thus they are high-risk.)
For blatant copyright infringements, use speedy deletion by tagging the file {{db-f9}}.
If a file is listed as public domain or under a free license but lacks verification of this (either by a VRT ticket number or a notice on the source website), tag it as {{subst:npd}}.
Files that are hosted on Wikimedia Commons cannot be deleted via this process. Please use the Commons deletion page instead.
Description pages with no local file, even though they are in the file namespace, should not be listed here.
1. Redirects should be treated as in any other namespace: if no speedy deletion criteria apply, they should be listed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion.
2. Local description pages with no associated file are speedy-deletable under criterion G8; use {{db-imagepage}}.
3. Local description pages for files hosted on Commons are usually speedy-deletable under criterion F2 if there is no content relevant to Wikipedia; use {{db-fpcfail}}.
4. Any other local description pages for files hosted on Commons should be listed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion.
If a file is appropriately licensed and could be usable elsewhere, consider copying it to the Wikimedia Commons instead of listing it for deletion. Once copied to the Commons, it is eligible for speedy deletion per criterion 8 for files.
If you are the uploader of the image, tag it with {{db-author}}.

Instructions for listing files for discussion

Use Twinkle. If you can't, follow these steps to do manually:

1	Edit the file page. Add `{{Ffd\|log=2024 November 23}}` to the file page.
2	Create its FfD subsection. Follow this edit link and list the file using `{{subst:Ffd2\|File_name.ext\|uploader=\|reason=}}` `~~~~` Leave the subject heading blank. If the file has been replaced by another file, name the file that replaced it in your reason for deletion. Refer below for a list of other common reasons. For listing additional files with the same reason, edit the first file section and use `{{subst:Ffd2a\|File_name.ext\|Uploader=}}` for each additional file. You may use this tool to quickly generate Ffd2a listings. Also, add `{{Ffd\|log=2024 November 23}}` to the top of the file page of each file other than the first one nominated.
3	Give due notice. Inform the uploader by adding a message to their talk page using `{{subst:Ffd notice\|File_name.ext}}` Remember to replace "File_name.ext" with the name of the image or media For multiple images by the same user, use `{{subst:Ffd notice multi\|First_file.ext\|Second_file.ext\|Third_file.ext}}` `~~~~` (can handle up to 26) If the image is in use, also consider adding `{{FFDC\|File_name.ext\|log=2024 November 23}}` to the caption(s), or adding a notice to the article talk pages. Consider also notifying relevant WikiProjects of the discussion.

State the reasons why the file should be deleted, removed, or altered. Also, state what specific action should be taken, preferably in bold text; this allows discussion participants and closers to better understand the purpose of the nomination. Some examples of nomination statements include:

Delete. Orphaned with no foreseeable encyclopedic usage.
Delete. Replaced by File:FILE2.
Free (public domain) file may actually be eligible for copyright in the United States. This photograph was actually first published in 1931, not 1925.
Remove from ARTICLE1 and ARTICLE2. The file only meets WP:NFCC#8 with its use in ARTICLE3.
Non-free file may actually be free. This logo does not seem to meet the threshold of originality to be eligible for copyright in the United States and should actually be tagged free using {{PD-logo}}.

Examples of what files you may request for discussion, deletion or change here:

Obsolete – The file has been replaced by a better version.
Orphan – The file is not used on any pages in Wikipedia.
Unencyclopedic – The file doesn't seem likely to be useful in any Wikimedia project.
Low quality – The file is of an extremely low resolution, distorted, or has other physical image quality concerns.
Copyright violation – The file might be used in violation of copyright.
Possibly unfree – The file is claimed as a freely licensed content, but may actually be protected by copyright in either the United States or its country of origin.
NFCC violation – The file is used under a claim of fair use but does not meet the requirements.
Disputed copyright status – There is a disagreement between editors over the copyright status of a file. This includes, but is not limited to disputes about whether a file is: too simple for fair use, using the correct license tags, or accurately described by its description page.
Wrongly claimed as own – The file is under a self license, but the information on the file description pages suggests otherwise.

These are not the only "valid" reasons to discuss a file. Any properly explained reason can be used. The above list comprises the most common and uncontroversial ones.

If you remove a file from an article, list the article from which you removed it so there can be community review of whether the file should be deleted. This is necessary because file pages do not remember the articles on which the file were previously used.

If you have general questions about a file and/or its copyright status, then please start a new thread at Media Copyright Questions.

Instructions for discussion participation

In responding to the deletion nomination, consider adding your post in the format
* '''View''' - Reasoning ... -- ~~~~
where "Delete", "Keep", "Comment", or something else may replace "View". In posting their reasoning, many editors use abbreviations and cite to the following:

Wikipedia:NFCC#1 – Free equivalent is/is not available
Wikipedia:NFCC#8 – Significance
Wikipedia:Non-free content#Images 2 – Unacceptable image use

Remember that polling is not a substitute for discussion. Wikipedia's primary method of determining consensus is through editing and discussion, not voting. Although editors occasionally use straw polls in an attempt to test for consensus, polls or surveys sometimes impede rather than assist discussion. They should be used with caution, and are no more binding than any other consensus decision.

Also remember that if you believe that an image is potentially useful for other projects and should be moved to Wikimedia Commons, in lieu of responding '''Move to Commons''', you can move it there yourself. See Wikipedia:Moving files to the Commons for instructions.

Instructions for closing discussions

Nominations should be processed for closing after being listed for 7 days following the steps here.

Old discussions

Shortcut

WP:FFDO

The following discussions are more than 7 days old and are pending processing by an administrator:

November 15

File:Indian Bank logo.svg

[edit]

A low-quality fake (WP:HOAX) that is not capable of replacing the original image for encyclopedic purposes (WP:NFCC# 4, 5, 8). — Ирука¹³ 19:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change your own file to proper SVG file, and upload it in the old file. It would be better. VNC200 (talk) 03:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You could have informed me in my own chatbox such issues. I would have tried to make such changes accordingly. Is it possible to get some time to change and modify and upload it in a new form ? Please let me know. VNC200 (talk) 03:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For older nominations, see the archives.

Discussions approaching conclusion

Discussions with at least 6 full days since nomination. After 7 days, they may be closed.

November 16

File:Indian Bank logo 2023.png

I think this logo is simple and not much different from those presented in c:COM:TOO. — Ирука¹³ 00:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:VPRO1970's.PNG

The logo should either be considered simple or removed for non-compliance with WP:NFCC#8. — Ирука¹³ 00:32, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Til I Die Beach Boys.ogg

Current usages in and contextual sigificance to Brian Wilson and 'Til I Die questionable. Default to delete if no one opposes. George Ho (talk) 23:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in song article because there is so much sourced, critical commentary in both the Recording and Background and composition sections that justify its inclusion thereby passing WP:NFCC#8. Aspects (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 00:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:TAKRADRadioRIZ.jpg

"You can use it on Wikipedia" does not equal CC-BY. — Ирука¹³ 02:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – The uploader should contact the author again and suggest that they contact c:COM:VRT to relicense their photo. JohnCWiesenthal (talk) 02:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Rihanna - Only Girl (In the World).ogg

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more files. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: delete--Ymblanter (talk) 08:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed from the song article as unrelated to content. File's contextual significance to the whole parent album questionable. Default to delete if no one opposes. George Ho (talk) 03:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Rihanna - What's My Name (Feat. Drake).ogg

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more files. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: delete--Ymblanter (talk) 08:33, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed from the song article by an IP editor (well, without rationale for removal). File's contextual significance to the whole parent album questionable. Default to delete if no one opposes. George Ho (talk) 03:45, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Rihanna - S&M.ogg

File's contextual significance to the whole parent album and the whole song questionable. Default to delete if no one opposes. George Ho (talk) 04:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:TwentyFour News 2023 logo.png

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more files. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: delete, unploaded in violation of a block and unused-Ymblanter (talk) 08:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The logo should be removed. Either as a duplicate or as too complex. — Ирука¹³ 04:59, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Golpayegani.jpg

Since neither the date of the author's death nor the date of publication of the photograph is known, it is not possible to determine its licensing status. — Ирука¹³ 06:40, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:PHP1 Horacio dela Costa commemorative coin.png

According to the article, this coin can still be used for payment, which means that its photograph is still protected by copyright. — Ирука¹³ 08:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Platt-LePage XR-1A front.jpg

The source of the image is an amateur website. The officiality of the original publication of the photograph is also questionable. — Ирука¹³ 09:28, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Recent nominations

November 17

File:Order of Royal Purple badge.png

The badge is used instead of a logo (WP:NFCC#5, 8, 10c). There are no reliable sources for writing the text justifying the presence of this image in the article (WP:NFCC#8, 1 (text)). The design of the object, created in 1914, is in the public domain at least (WP:FREER) in the USA. Several dozen of these badges have been issued; one of them is even in a museum = you can take a photo and release it under a free license (WP:NFCC#1). — Ирука¹³ 00:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The badge is described in the text and reliably sourced to the Canadian Museum of History's website. The image used is from the same website which is a national (federal) governmental agency. The use of this image in the Wikipedia article is consistent with the educational purposes for which the photo was originally published and does not violate any for-profit restrictions. Note that the badge includes the order's crest/logo which has not been found elsewhere for this defunct group. Rublamb (talk) 16:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The text in the article is barely enough to use {{External media}}. Once again - what prevents you (not you specifically, but any person) from taking your own photo of this object? And again, why, despite MOS:LEAD / MOS:LEADIMAGE / MOS:SECTIONLOC, is the image placed in the infobox, and not in the section in which it is described?

Are you sure you tried? — Ирука¹³ 05:19, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: For the rationale stated by Rublamb. Responding to Iruka13's (Ирука's) point, I hope that someone visiting the museum would indeed take a clearer picture, but for now, this image will suffice. As to placement, the F&S Project prefers to use a society's crest as the organizational identifier in the top left infobox, but when this is unavailable or of significantly (~too) low resolution, we opt for images of the society's pin or key. If both are available, we then place the pin or key image against the parameter | member badge = [badge].PNG, also in the infobox, or as a thumbnail graphic in the Symbols section of the body text. Both items help identify the society and its members, and in all cases we opt for PD images where we can, or reduced-size fair use images which do not affect commercial viability. Jax MN (talk) 22:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Seal of Christ Church Cathedral, Dublin.gif

Except that a very similar image, but with thinner lines, is on the official website of the cathedral, I have not found any other information about it. — Ирука¹³ 09:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I do not understand this deletion proposal. On what basis is the nominator proposing deletion? That they cannot confirm that it is sufficiently old to be tagged as being "first published outside the United States [..] before 1978"? While, perhaps, the licence tag could be improved, there is ample evidence that the image is sufficiently old as to be out of copyright. Including this record (which includes this representation of the same seal) reputedly dating to "c.1870". Or this post about a modern company that "reworked" the logo/seal which states that the "Capitular Seal [is] a signifying marque of Christ Church dating from the 12th Century". Whether the version on Wikipedia dates from the 19th century or the 12th century, it is not copyrighted or copyrightable. Perhaps {{PD-old-assumed}} would be a better tag. But I do not see any reason for deletion (nor, from what I can tell, has the nominator offered one...) Guliolopez (talk) 10:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People see what they want to see... please scroll all the way to the top of the page and read what is written there in large print.

Now. We have a seal - a 3D object from the 12th century. And we have sketches from the 1870s. And there is a restoration in the form of a drawing on paper from the end of the twentieth, or already the 21st century? The latter is in full swing of copyright. — Ирука¹³ 11:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Arms of Bonar Law.png

The image appears to be from a deleted article. Should be moved to Commons in the appropriate category. Or, taking into account the participant’s contribution, delete it. Because only the shield is drawn here; roosters are photoshopped onto the shield; all this together is put on a wreath. — Ирука¹³ 12:21, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 18

File:TracyStraussHechlerDarinStrauss2011.png

This file looks like a TV grab Sreejith K (talk) 05:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Joe Glick, lightweight boxer in the 1920's.jpg

Until the fact of publication is proven, it is impossible to talk about the license of the file. — Ирука¹³ 06:15, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Robert Runcie 1981.jpg

Use of image in table on List of archbishops of Canterbury violates WP:NFTABLE. Thus, should be removed from that article, although use at [Robert Runcie]] article seems okay, as no non-free images look to exist of him. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:17, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Soggy Bottom Boys Feat. Dan Tyminski - I Am A Man Of Constant Sorrow.ogg

Originally, I proposed speedy deletion on this file on replaceability basis, but the song's (or the recording's or version's) copyright status challenged that. Current usage in the song article and the soundtrack album one may fail NFCC. Well, I'm not re-disputing its copyright status. Indeed, as I discovered, the version of the 1913 song was done in 1950s, and its copyright was renewed then, making the copyright still intact to this date.

Actually, the main reason to nominate this file is its ability to contextually signify the song itself—popularized by the version heard in the sample—and the soundtrack containing the recording. I don't mean to challenge the accuracy and matching of the sample. I really meant that the assumption of the omission detrimenting the understanding of either topic, required by NFCC, is not yet proven.

To put this another way, I'm unconvinced that this sample is helpful to understanding the whole 20th-century song or the whole album, despite identifying/demonstrating the song or recording itself. I welcome counterarguments, especially from one who favors using the file in at least one page. Sure, the version made the song popular more than prior iterations had done, but is the sample necessary? George Ho (talk) 06:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It should be noted first that George Ho initially nominated this file for deletion using a false claim that this song is in the public domain when it wasn't - [1]. I provided the information that it is in fact not in the public domain because it was copyrighted in the 1950s (and someone actually paid half a million dollars for the rights to publish it when it was used in the film) in the discussion, whereupon he "discovered" (as he puts it here) that it's not in the public domain. I challenged the deletion then because it is entirely wrong to speedy delete something based on false information, but here he wants it deleted again and for me to provide counterarguments here, so here I am.

This recording is without doubt the most prominent one of all the versions recorded. It won a Grammy (the soundtrack album it's in also won a Grammy), sold a million copies, and spawned numerous covers. It there is one music sample to be used in the Man Of Constant Sorrow article, this should be the one. As for contextual significance, its use can be justified per WP:NFC#CS where only by including such non-free content, can the reader identify an object, style, or behavior, that is a subject of discussion in the article. All recordings are unique, and it is impossible to correctly represent the song performance without using the actual music itself, for example its phrasing, arrangement, interpretation, the accompanying instrumentation, nuances, etc. Different recordings may also have different tunes (e.g. the recording by the Stanley Brothers is completely different to the ones by Joan Baez or Bob Dylan), so you can't actually use the scores from (presumably copyright-free) old recordings (e.g. by Emry Arthur) to represent the version by the Soggy Bottom Boys. They have different tunes. The only way you can correctly identify the song is by using the actual music itself. You certainly cannot use another versions to represent this version in the O Brother, Where Art Thou? (soundtrack) article. Hzh (talk) 23:02, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Does not satisfy WP:NFCC#8 as currently used. Upon reviewing the text of both Man of Constant Sorrow & O Brother, Where Art Thou? (soundtrack), I found no substantial sourced critical commentary/coverage of the clip in either article. -Fastily 22:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why people ignore WP:NFC#CS that clearly states that commentary is just one of two ways contextual significance can be met, the other one is as quoted above - only by including such non-free content, can the reader identify an object, style, or behavior, that is a subject of discussion in the article, and I believe this sound clip meets that criterion. Hzh (talk) 08:53, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those two "ways" are just common circumstances; well, there are more than two. Honestly, I don't think the article has sufficient due weight and balance to justify the file's significance to the topic in question.

Currently, it's used in the "Origin" section of the song article, according to mobile view. I don't see the section describing what the sample is supposed to demonstrate. If it were used in the "Soggy Bottom Boys" section, as I suppose, the sample wouldn't make much difference other than doing the same thing that other materials are doing, like links and article text: drive readers into seeking (or buying) a full recording or other recordings of the song.

Song recognition (or identity or demonstration or whatever you call it) probably doesn't exemplify a depiction of a prominent aspect of the subject. I'm unsure why you think the content heard in the sample exemplifies the "prominent aspect" of the song, which existed and was (somewhat) notable for years before the version, or of the version itself, whose "prominent aspect" is yet to be determined. Why is this aspect "prominent" to the song?

Also, what about this: its omission would be detrimental to that understanding? You were implicitly assuming that readers wouldn't understand the very old song without the sample, weren't you? Unfortunately, reading the song article, I don't see how the sample helps readers contextually understand the song in one way or another, and I think readers would be fine understanding the whole song without the sample.

The sample is also used in the "Development and sound" section of the soundtrack article. However, I don't see how it depicts the "prominent aspect" of the whole soundtrack album itself, and I don't see how this aspect is "prominent" to the soundtrack in question. I'm reading just brief descriptions about the song itself over there. George Ho (talk) 12:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the most prominent example of the song, it eclipsed all previous versions, people now associate the song with this version, so the more pertinent question is why you think that isn't its most prominent aspect. The tune, lyrics, arrangement, style and performance are prominent aspects of a song, that is the very nature of any song, and the most prominent version of a song would exemplify that song. I believe it was originally in the infobox, you can move it back, but it matters not, because that version is the most representative recording of the song and helps people understand what the song sounds like. It is impossible to know what the song sounds like without an audio clip. Ideally we can add the older version (presumably copyright-free), so you can hear how the song has changed, but the old version is not representative of the song (no one sings that version now, it is no longer the same song), but the one by Soggy Bottom Boys is. Hzh (talk) 14:22, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The tune, lyrics, arrangement, style and performance are prominent aspects of a song, that is the very nature of any song. That's the case of using the whole recording, which automatically fails the "minimal extent of use" criterion... and the "respect for commercial opportunities" criterion.

This is the most prominent example of the song, it eclipsed all previous versions, people now associate the song with this version. Again, the whole recording. that version is the most representative recording of the song. Doesn't look like a case of a short sample but rather the whole recording.

helps people understand what the song sounds like. It is impossible to know what the song sounds like without an audio clip. I've seen others use the same argument that what a song sounds like exemplifies "contextual significance", and sometimes the argument works only when text either contains hard-to-understand words or suffices in length to justify use. I see neither in both articles.

the more pertinent question is why you think that isn't its most prominent aspect Since it's not that obvious to you, I can't help wonder whether I already said above is sufficient. In this case, I just heard a character (or George Clooney?) sing one of verses throughout most of the sample. The sample starts with the ending of a chorus. I don't see text describing the verse itself, Clooney's vocals, background music, or anything else that makes omitting the short random sample detrimental to such understanding. Using some random portion just to identify the (portion of the) song doesn't exemplify "contextual significance", IMO. George Ho (talk) 16:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are simply saying something no one has ever suggested using, which is the whole song. The idea of using a clip is to give a true representation of what the song is like (and you can get an idea of the tune, the style, arrangement from the clip) within the limitations placed upon by all the guidelines on how to reasonably use a non-free media file. It looks like you are arguing against WP:NFC#CS itself using your own criteria like using full song, text length or comprehensibility, and you should take that to the community for discussion first. Just like the way you use you own random criteria to argue for the deletion of files (e.g. chart positions of this song to determine if its infobox deserves an image) in other discussion, take that to the community first to gain a consensus before using such arguments. Hzh (talk) 17:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are simply saying something no one has ever suggested using, which is the whole song. I wasn't serious about the idea. The suggestion was just sarcastic, but I see how I came across as too serious to you.

The idea of using a clip is to give a true representation of what the song is like (and you can get an idea of the tune, the style, arrangement from the clip) within the limitations placed upon by all the guidelines on how to reasonably use a non-free media file. A clip might or might not give a general idea about the song... or the specific recording. Nonetheless, it may not illustrate contextual significance to the topic in question, usually a song. In this case, the clip doesn't truly identify the history of the song or the song itself, which foresaw versions and lyric alterations.

Marketers use samples in shopping websites... and (old days) music shops to drive customers into buying an album containing that content or a single. Have CD-ROM encyclopedias in the pre-Wikipedia era included samples of songs? If so, what was the amount of samples per encyclopedia? --George Ho (talk) 18:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All you have done is just keep asserting that it doesn't have contextual significance, using apparent "sarcasm" to dismiss my argument. If you argument is that it's the wrong section, that is an argument for moving to a different section, your argument is not a reason for deletion. Hzh (talk) 19:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As said before, the use in the "Soggy Bottom Boys" section wouldn't do much either except song demonstration, which isn't all what "contextual significance" (or "significance") means. If that "significance" to the topic isn't "contextual", then that "significance" shouldn't be in the project.

The non-free file must demonstrate how text is inadequate without non-free content. As I see, the text is fine to understand and grasp without non-free content, implying that the old 20th-century song itself can be already understood without NFC. The sample doesn't do much except mere portion demonstration/identification and doesn't illustrate the song (or the branding of it), which has a long history before the version demonstrated by the sample. George Ho (talk) 20:34, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You simply ignore my points and just keep asserting the same thing. A sound clip says more about the song than words ever could, words alone can never adequately describe music. I would go as far as saying that all music article are incomplete without audio samples. Hzh (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You simply ignore my points and just keep asserting the same thing. When have I ever done that? I read your points and thought I was counterarguing them well, including your counterargument to Fastily's "delete" vote. George Ho (talk) 21:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you were referring to the one I didn't literally counterargue yet (It looks like you are arguing against WP:NFC#CS itself), then here goes: I'm not trying to ignore (or argue against) WP:NFC#CS, which is the guideline's interpretation of the "contextual significance" criterion policy. I'm either interpreting the guideline this way or using WP:GUIDES to decide whether to either follow the guideline or stick with the policy (to override the guideline).

A sound clip says more about the song than words ever could, words alone can never adequately describe music. I would go as far as saying that all music article are incomplete without audio samples. If that were true in all cases, then other samples that were deleted via FFD wouldn't have been deleted at all. Check the past nominations on .mp3 and .ogg files yourself please. George Ho (talk) 22:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I said, for example, the music sample is required to identify what is the most prominent version of the song, and you countered it with "sarcasm" that you then said wasn't meant to be serious (therefore it's no counterargument at all), I said if you think it is in the wrong section you can move it, yet you keep repeating about "history". It is the most prominent version, therefore the most representative version of the song. You appear to have your own unique interpretation of the WP:NFC#CS, adding criteria that aren't there to argue for deletion. Since you have been found trying to delete this file using false information, this file would have already been deleted if I had not bother to challenge it (few would bother to check the validity of your information, and I only challenged it because I found what you did objectionable), I don't take previous deletions as examples of anything. Hzh (talk) 22:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You repeatedly accused me of spreading "false information", which is a sordid accusation, and implies intent. When has information been "false" and intentionally "false"? George Ho (talk) 23:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"False information" by itself does not imply intent to deceive. Someone can use false information without knowing it is false. Don't think I have ever accused you of "spreading false information". "Disinformation" is the word for false information with intent. Hzh (talk) 23:55, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should also note that that the song was copyrighted was mentioned twice in the article - by Carter Stanley, and by Lee and Juanita Moore. It suggests that you did not read the article properly to say that it was free of copyright. Hzh (talk) 01:26, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The only alternative is that you knowingly stated false information to get the file deleted. So which would you prefer, being careless with facts by not reading the article properly so you can delete a file, or that? Hzh (talk) 04:02, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I said, for example, the music sample is required to identify what is the most prominent version of the song, and you countered it with "sarcasm" that you then said wasn't meant to be serious (therefore it's no counterargument at all). When is a music sample required to identify the "prominent version"? I was trying to point out that "contextual significance" doesn't always mean illustrating what the song sounds like, but... ah, well. You always would counter-argue just to stand firm to your views, anyways.

I said if you think it is in the wrong section you can move it, yet you keep repeating about "history". I will move the sample if the result is "keep"; I was trying to argue how pointless the moving would be if otherwise. George Ho (talk) 02:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The whole I-mean-what-I-didn't-say argument is always an interesting one. Hzh (talk) 12:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Whpq (talk) 16:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep: provided it's not in breach of copyright, I can't think of a better way of "illustrating" any song to the reader (i.e. listener) than by providing a recording or an extract of that song. But given it's current placement in the article under "Origin", and the fact that a full recording of that version is linked to in the infobox for the Soggy Bottom Boys section, one might easily argue it's misplaced and/or redundant. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:38, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 19

File:Charli XCX - Unlock It.png

I don't believe this is the actual cover art for the single. Released on 11 December 2017, the Internet Archive shows the Pop 2 artwork being used on the single on the 12th when the mixtape wasn't released until the 15th. Laun chba ller 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:La sopera, María Izquierdo, 1929.jpg

The painting was published in 1929 and is not in the public domain in the United States. It cannot be used as non-free under 8 paragraph WP:NFCC. — Ирука¹³ 08:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The painting was published before 1930 so it is public domain in the United States DogeGamer2015MZT (talk) 20:58, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@DogeGamer2015MZT: I think you've made an off-by-one error. WP:PD says that In the US, any work published before January 1, 1929, anywhere in the world is in the public domain. On the bright side, it'll enter the public domain in just six weeks. jlwoodwa (talk) 23:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep not worth deleting for only one month DogeGamer2015MZT (talk) 14:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Ahmad Madaani.jpg

Since neither the author nor the date of original publication is known, it is not possible to determine the licensing status of the photograph in the United States or Iran. — Ирука¹³ 09:16, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Map of NYSPHSAA sections.png

Fails WP:NFCC#1, as a freely licenced map of these areas could easily be created. Also WP:NFCC#3a- minimal number of non-free images in an article (as we already have the logo File:New York State Public High School Athletic Association logo.svg). Joseph2302 (talk) 10:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move to commons DogeGamer2015MZT (talk) 22:04, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – I think it's under the threshold of originality for maps, making it public-domain. jlwoodwa (talk) 00:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Torun unesco poland.JPG

A small unused image with a caption and a sufficient number of high-quality replacements, including from the same angle. — Ирука¹³ 11:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move to commons DogeGamer2015MZT (talk) 21:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:The badge of the Military Order of the Serpent.png

Ref to Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions#Member_badge, this is a replaceable fair use file where a free version of the file can be duplicated --Min☠︎rax^«¦talk¦» 12:11, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Minorax, was this intended? In the line above you referenced a discussion about another badge. "Wolf's Head" vs. the "Military Order of the Serpent". In both cases I have clarified the irreplicable claim, have commented on the relevant Talk pages, and in the case of the Serpent, I reduced the image further, Jax MN (talk) 18:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:2026 Winter Paralympics logo.svg

No source, looks significantly different from File:2026 Winter Paralympics logo.png which does have a source (see the edges of the colored letters), contains a large chunk of raster graphics, possibly previously deleted at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 July_22#File:2026 Winter Paralympics logo.svg. — Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 15:58, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 20

File:Franciszek Ksawery Branicki (1730-1819) 1.jpg

Orphaned, superseded by File:Jan Chrzciciel Lampi - Franciszek Ksawery Branicki with his sons, Aleksander and Władysław - MP 4418 MNW - National Museum in Warsaw.jpg on Commons. ✗plicit 00:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Sosumi.mp3

This is a complete edition of the Sosumi sound. It's not a sample of Sosumi. It's the entire Sosumi sound file. Sosumi originated as a sample of another song is true, but is irrelevant. The Sosumi sound is its own thing, with its own name, and Wikipedia article Sosumi, and news coverage. GreenC 02:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, I'll fix it right away. In the meantime, I put it as a "sample" because it was listed as a sample of a xylophone. Although, I completely understand what you're saying, so what should I label it as instead? Please let me know ASAP. Thank you. Jibblesnark86 (talk) 06:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well I don't know how to label an Apple OS sound file, maybe just that? How the sound file was composed or obtained is sort of secondary. In any case, it is not Fair Use to use the entire work, to be Fair Use would require a "sample of a sample", but it's so short, it is not practical. Possibly there is a replica somewhere that is machine generated and thus not copyrightable? -- GreenC 15:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I labeled it as "trademark", will that work? If not, please tell me because I may have to delete it myself before someone else does. Jibblesnark86 (talk) 01:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jibblesnark86. Suggest we ask WP:Media copyright questions, they are knowledgeable on obscure copyright issues. I opened a question at Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions#Sosumi_sound_file. Let's follow up there, and come back here, if there is consensus to delete. -- GreenC 15:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hope there is some good news soon, because I really don't wanna get in trouble or something! Thank you for assisting! Jibblesnark86 (talk) 06:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody responded yet. I usually get help there. -- GreenC 01:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The YouTube clip of the whole Sosumi sound effect sounds clearer than the mp3 version. Has the mp3 format downgraded the quality of the sound effect in any way? George Ho (talk) 05:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 00:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Stereo MCs - Connected excerpt.ogg

Its contextual significance to the parent album and the whole song questionable. Default to deletion if no one opposes. George Ho (talk) 03:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Monsoon - Ever So Lonely excerpt.ogg

Its contextual significance to the whole song and the singer who performed the content heard in the file questionable. Default to deletion if no one objects. George Ho (talk) 03:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Monsoon - Ever So Lonely.jpg

There's already a cover art (for the same recording but under a different format). Also, its contextual significance to the song questionable. George Ho (talk) 03:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Morgan Schaller.jpg

The photo is copyrighted by Morgan Schaller. There is no confirmation that he published the photo under this license. — Ирука¹³ 11:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. No proof that the photo is licensed under the mentioned license. Ratekreel (talk) 18:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What steps need to be taken to resolve this? FreeBeerAndBrats (talk) 17:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Rhodesia 10 - 8 New Zealand.jpg

"A Zimbabwean work that is in the public domain in Zimbabwe according to this rule is in the public domain in the U.S. only if it was in the public domain in Zimbabwe in 1996, e.g. if it was published before 1946" — Ирука¹³ 12:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As per the template which clearly says it is PD if: "It is a collective, audiovisual or photographic work, and 50 years have passed since the date of its publication (or creation, whatever date is the latest)". The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 12:32, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PD where? — Ирука¹³ 12:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's the second bulletpoint in the tag. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 18:40, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Convert to fair use (or delete if not NFCC-compliant) – Under assumption that simultaneous publication (i.e. thirty-day window) isn't yet proven, totally not free in the US per URAA as the photo was still copyrighted in Zimbabwe—a member of the WTO since 1995—in 1996. Should be free to transfer to Commons on 31 December 2044, ninety-five years after first publication. If converted to fair use, the image should meet all NFCC. George Ho (talk) 19:17, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I think fair use conversion would be a fair decision to do @George Ho: and I'd back that. I suspect I may have got my maths wrong when I uploaded. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 13:19, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Fiorenzuola 1992-93.jpg

The photo was taken in 1992-93, meaning it did not enter the public domain in Italy before 1996, and therefore still under copyright in the United States. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 12:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like all of the user’s other uploads were published in Italy after 1976 and therefore still under copyright in the United States. Adeletron 3030 (talk • edits) 12:38, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the late response. My bad. I do not usually upload pictures and when I did those I thought they would have been fine as long as I properly attributed, and since I used only once or for one page, I thought that they fell under fair use. Davide King (talk) 00:27, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Primitives - Crash excerpt.ogg

File's contextual significance to the band who performed the content heard in the file questionable. Critical commentary inadequate to justify usage. George Ho (talk) 17:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:La's - There She Goes excerpt.ogg

File's contextual significance to the band who performed the content heard in the file questionable. Critical commentary inadequate to justify usage. George Ho (talk) 17:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Susan Smith (SC convict).png

Person still alive. E_F⁵ 21:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is generally an exception for people who have life in prison, as the same reasons for dead people apply - they are completely inaccessible to the public so it is impossible for a free image to be taken. See Lucy Letby for example. So keep, I suppose (she does have a theoretical chance of parole but given how high profile this case was... doubtful. But maybe weak keep given that) PARAKANYAA (talk) 17:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 21

File:Backboard shattering.jpeg

Procedural filing to seek wider community input to settle disagreement over the validity of speedy deletion.

Keep: Both myself and an administrator who is knowledgeable, experienced, and familiar with the basketball topic area have explained on the file talk page why this image and its usage thereof satisfies the WP:NFCC#1 fair use criteria. Left guide (talk) 03:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Please tell us how you searched for the image for this article? — Ирука¹³ 04:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By searching "backboard shattering" on Flickr. Left guide (talk) 04:27, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you haven't searched in other search engines that can search for images with a free license? — Ирука¹³ 04:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Background The prior speedy deletion–related discussion is at File talk:Backboard shattering.jpeg § Tag—Bagumba (talk) 03:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:ChalavYisrael-OUD.jpg

The photograph is of such poor quality that for encyclopedic purposes it can only appear in an article on "how not to take photographs". / There is no license for the photo of the - presumably - three-dimensional object. — Ирука¹³ 15:38, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 22

File:CAS Cambridge.jpg

I don't think this logo is simple. — Ирука¹³ 06:37, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd disagree. I don't think this meets the threshold of originality as it's a naturally occurring shape (the continent of Africa) rendered in two color tones. But I'll defer to the community. Chetsford (talk) 06:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide examples of such images. — Ирука¹³ 06:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To what images are you referring? Chetsford (talk) 08:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Hassan Allahyari in podcast.png

Probably a screenshot from one of the podcasts, as indirectly evidenced by the lack of metadata and the uploading of non-free images by the participant under the guise of free ones. — Ирука¹³ 06:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:TimRoseAmericanSon2002FrontCover.jpg

File does not significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would not be detrimental to that understanding (WP:NFCC#8 / WP:NFC#CS). — Ирука¹³ 09:37, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Nematollah Aghasi And Andranik Madadian.jpg

Author and date of publication unknown. License status cannot be confirmed. — Ирука¹³ 16:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 23

File:MachineReadableIndianPassportCover.JPG

Orphaned, low quality photos of an Indian passport. High quality alternatives available at c:Category:Passports of India. ✗plicit 04:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:Chambéry Airport logo.png

The complex logo (?) is loaded over the simple one without changing the license. Not to mention that in the source it is now .svg. — Ирука¹³ 09:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:EleanorDaley.jpg

Public-domain alternative (President John F. Kennedy Meets with Mayor Richard Daley of Chicago and Daley's Family (1).jpg) exists. I have substituted this photos previous use with it. SecretName101 (talk) 09:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

File:The Man with the Golden Gun, wraparound cover.jpeg

WP:FREER — Ирука¹³ 12:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep What a waste of time. FREER does not play any part in this farce. We have replaced one non-free image with another non-free image, not one iota of which comes under FREER. (Just for clarification, WP:FREER concerns itself with where "Non-free content cannot be used in cases where a free content equivalent". Where one non-free replaces another non-free, FREER plays no part, whether in deleting the image from an article (along with other changes), or with a deletion discussion where there is no non-free equivalent). When this was reverted from the article space, it was done under the rational of CSD F7. Looking at WP:F7, I am perplexed as to what part of this rationale is relevant here, given: 1. the image is not from an agency; 2. it is not replaceable by a free image; and 3. there is no invalid fair-use claim. The rationale given for this deletion is a false and—given the context—a disruptive one. This discussion should be archived and the image should be allowed to remain on WP as a non-free image.
Although both images (the old and the new) are non-free, the new image shows the whole cover, which actually manages to show the whole book title, not less than half of it, plus aspects of the illustrations that are referred to in the text - aspects that look ridiculous without actually showing the whole cover.
I have asked user:Iruka13 why they think FREER plays a part in this, but they firstly refused to do so and since have been unable or unwilling to offer up an explanation. - SchroCat (talk) 12:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A blindingly obvious keep. See Template:Non-free book cover: "It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of book covers to illustrate an article discussing the book in question … qualifies as fair use under the copyright law of the United States". I can't say I like the cover much, but its use here ticks every box for admissibility under Wikipedia's rules. Tim riley talk 13:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Although in the case of most books just the obverse would suffice, the dust cover of The Man with the Golden Gun is implicitly intended to be taken as a single work, with the obverse and reverse both containing the same information (i.e., title, gun) as part of an integral whole. Consequently, this version of the dust cover is the more representational. As for WP:FREER, it's absolutely spurious. The first sentence of that paragraph is "Non-free content cannot be used in cases where a free content equivalent, with an acceptable quality sufficient to serve the encyclopedic purpose, is available or could be created." The Man with the Golden Gun was published in 1965, so even if the cover art were anonymous it would not enter the public domain in Britain in 2036; due to the URAA, there are similar implications for the United States. Richard Chopping, the artist, died in 2008, which means the cover art remains in copyright until 2079. There are no "free" alternatives available or potentially available. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 15:15, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about now? — Ирука¹³ 15:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iruka13, is there any chance you could explain yourself a little more clearly? The lack of clear communication is not helping. - SchroCat (talk) 15:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. I can explain. Your (three) behavior. You didn't read the paragraph I refer to to the end. — Ирука¹³ 15:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chrisco, I think these comments are aimed at you. If you can understand them, can you explain to the rest of us, as Iruka13 had declined to clarify what they are supposed to mean. - SchroCat (talk) 20:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you are referring to the paragraph beginning "Another consideration for "no free equivalent" are "freer" versions of non-free media," you are clearly not understanding the content - and in fact I already argued against the possibility of the half-cover being used, if that is what you intend. The example provided speaks to the possibility of a dual copyright, wherein an item is copyrighted and an image of it is also copyrighted. You could feasibly have a point that one could purchase a first edition and scan the cover, thereby removing any possibility of the three-dimensional aspect incurring a new copyright (as alluded to below), but that does not remove the fact that any reproduction is copyrighted and fair use. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to do a bit more explaining. Keep in mind that this is a 2D work, which means reproduction do not garner their own additional copyright under US law. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry Iruka13, but I do not understand what you mean. What paragraph? What is the link to the image supposed to demonstrate or explain? - SchroCat (talk) 15:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't look at the nickname. Wasn't replying to you. — Ирука¹³ 16:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iruka13, Is there any chance you can communicate more clearly then. To whom were you speaking (it would possibly help if you pinged them) and what were you trying to say - they will possibly be as mystified as I am by your method of communication. Explaining more fully may help end this constant back and forth and let people focus on your perceived issues. - SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. These people are distracted by you. You removed a template that you shouldn't have removed. But now these people will learn something. In 7 days. — Ирука¹³ 17:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you can’t be bothered to explain why you have posted a deletion based on a false rationale, then this is going to end (rightly) with it being closed with the image retained. (The reason I removed the notice was because it's so obviously a false rationale, one I initially thought was just someone being disruptive: I am still not convinced that’s the case, given a. the rationale is patently false, as several people have explained to you and b. you are being evasive and obstructive in not providing a proper explanation.) - SchroCat (talk) 18:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The full cover is one image with the title of the book extending from rear to front. It would not adequately illustrate the article to use half (or less) of the image. The snake's skull shown on the rear cover refers to an important plot point in the novel, so it actually provides commentary. In any case, this image follows the non-free image rules and, as others note above, no free or "freer" image is available, so WP:FREER does not apply here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, as per the very good arguments above. Cassianto^Talk 17:12, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is wasting editors' time when someone whose fragmentary English is unintelligible seeks to engage En.Wiki editors in frivolous arguments. Tim riley talk 17:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Today is November 23 2024. Put new nominations in Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 November 23 – (new nomination)

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