User talk:BabelStone/Archive 2012

NNU Class Project - Winter 2012

Please consider adding your name at: Wikipedia:School and university projects/NNU Class Project/Winter 2012

Many thanks, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

6.1

You knew this timing, didn't you? -DePiep (talk) 22:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Still missing some eight new scripts here -DePiep (talk) 22:20, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I didn't check 15924 -- feel free to add them. BabelStone (talk) 22:23, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I've just been through here and I can't see anything missing from Template:ISO 15924 script codes and Unicode. BabelStone (talk) 00:03, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

It should be the other way around: the template should reflect ISO 15924 Property Value Alias.Example: newly added in 6.1 is script ISO code: Plrd="Miao (Pollard)" by ISO name, and "Miao" in Unicode U+16F00 (e.g. character name U+16F00 MIAO LETTER PA). I'd expect the ISO 15924 -- Unicode Script name (Propery Value Alias) to besynchroniused by now, but it is not. The scriptAlpha4-to-UnicodeScriptname is covered in [1], but not directly with ISO 15924. Another Unicode-always-has-a-way-around situation. I expect the ISO update list will show this shortly, or in a semiannual update in June. If I'm right, M. Everson maintains this lining list. -DePiep (talk) 00:43, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

This is way to cryptic. And: you already updated the template. Well, what I wanted to say is: Uc uses a script code (e.g. Plrd, defined and named "Pollard (Miao)" by ISO), and a Propert Value Alias (chosen by Uc, and 1:1 linked to an ISO Alpha4 code -- when Uc uses that script). This way Uc does not have to use clumsy ISO names, and can choose a script name suitable. Today there are seven new scripts in Uc, but their PropValueAliases are not yet declared in the ISO list. (They are in the Unicode file I linked to). So, that is strange, but I think not illegal by Unicode law. -DePiep (talk) 00:51, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, now I understand what you mean. As 15924 is only hosted by Unicode, but Michael Everson is responsible for maintaining it, the files won't automatically get updated when a new version of Unicode is released, but will have to wait until ME does an update. As far as I am aware there is no synchronization requirement between 15924/10646/Unicode wrt script names. Indeed, the 15924 script names are usually registered quite a while before the script is encoded, and political haggling during the encoding process often results in a completely different name (as in the case of Pollard/Miao). BabelStone (talk) 01:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Now here is a first time situation: Property Value Alias in the ISO 15924 Changes list is not updated (for these seven scripts), while Uc uses it in this version 6.1. But enough of this from me. -DePiep (talk) 23:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Noted. -- Evertype·✆ 22:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, it will be all right then. -DePiep (talk) 23:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

 Done -- Evertype·✆ 23:32, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Processed. One minor question, Michael, could you have the space removed from this line: file:iso15924-utf8-20111209-corr.txt Saur;344;Saurashtra;saurachtra; Saurashtra;? That is, in a future version. Of course it is not wrong, but it looks a bit careless. And I must handle it when reading the file. -DePiep (talk) 00:10, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

If you have comments about the file, post them to unicode@unicode.org. I do not follow BabelStone's Talk page as a means of maintaining the standard. -- Evertype·✆ 15:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

OK. -DePiep (talk) 15:56, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

My preferred reaction is: You are right. I was over enthousiastic. -DePiep (talk) 23:29, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Your new article

I noticed that you rated your new article Institute of Oriental Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences as start class. I think it's a bit better than start so I've re-rated it as c-class. The WP:RU guidelines use Agin-Buryat Okrug as an example of start-class! Your article is much better than start-class, especially considering the subject. INeverCry 19:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your assessment. I tend to self-assess new articles on the low side, and let other editors upgrade if appropriate. BabelStone (talk) 19:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I have the opposite tendency in regard to my stuff. ;) INeverCry 19:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Thoroughbreds

Thanks for your attention to racehorse articles, but please note that "Thoroughbred" in this sense is the name of the specific horse breed, so it's a proper noun = capital "T". Looks odd, but it is correct! Regards.  Tigerboy1966  00:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh sorry, my mistake! BabelStone (talk) 00:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

OK

If you have plans then I'll leave you to finish them. I could see no problem with having an article on "Important Wikipedians" and use Babelstone as an example of that class. So I'll leave you to explain your plan Victuallers (talk) 13:04, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but it would be the wrong place to give detailed information about all BS's wonderful accomplishments :) BabelStone (talk) 13:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Institute of Oriental Manuscripts of the Russian Academy of Sciences

Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Nova N 176

Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Russian Revolutionary Plate

While the design may be copyright in Europe until 1 Jan 2018, it is not in copyright in the United States, having been published before 1923. Since the latter is considered decisive for en-wiki, we would consider this free, and therefore not "fair use in a list", per our normal rules and procedures. Jheald (talk) 12:26, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not convinced, as I don't think the design was published in the US before 1923. However, it might be worth uploading a picture (I have a good photo of the plate just waiting to be used) and see what the copyright experts on Commons think. BabelStone (talk) 13:21, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Template:PD-1923 : "Public domain works must be out of copyright in both the United States and in the source country of the work in order to be hosted on the Commons. If the work is not a U.S. work, the file must have an additional copyright tag indicating the copyright status in the source country." BabelStone (talk) 21:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

That is the policy for hosting on Commons. The policy for hosting and display on en-wiki is different, namely that it must be okay by U.S. law (which is one reason we have a fair amount of stuff here with {{Do not move to Commons}} templates on it). If you think further input would be useful, and you want further opinions, can I suggest opening a thread at WP:MCQ ? Jheald (talk) 08:53, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the clarification. In that case I will upload the image to en:wp using Template:PD-US-1923-abroad. BabelStone (talk) 12:19, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Uploaded here. BabelStone (talk) 20:35, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Trumpington bed burial

Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Bed burial

Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:45, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

List of Bible translations by language

This message being sent to the three editors who suggested listifying. Done. Took 3 days but the final remaining languages moved out to area articles or stubs. Please give input or edit on format of what remains. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:52, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

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British Library

Hi!

This is just to let you know that I've just recently started as the Wikipedian in Residence at the British Library, building off the 2011 British Library project which you participated in. I'll be working here full-time for the next six months; I'm still meeting people here to discuss projects that they're interested in working on, but if you've any suggestions, please do let me know!

We've currently got two events in the calendar:

• World War I Editathon, 16 June - organised jointly with JISC
• GLAM-WIKI 2012, 14-15 September - conference hosted by WMUK and the British Library

and I'm in the process of restarting the individual collaborations program - there's currently one article with a specialist looking for a Wikipedian, and hopefully I'll be adding more over the next few days.

(I'm planning to use the old participants list for any future messages - if you'd rather not be contacted, please leave a note there.)

Thanks, Andrew Gray (talk) 11:26, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Street House Anglo-Saxon cemetery

Your interesting article on bed burials, which I saw on DYK in February, prompted me to write Street House Anglo-Saxon cemetery, which you might find interesting. I've nominated it at Template:Did you know nominations/Street House Anglo-Saxon cemetery so hopefully it'll be on DYK as well. Prioryman (talk) 07:25, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Nice work with the photography -- I've borrowed the photo of the "Saxon princess" for the Bed burial article. BabelStone (talk) 21:19, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Invite you to write article

Hi, Mr. West, I want to invite you to write articles for Chinese Wikipedia. I am from CHINA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.23.194.233 (talk) 01:33, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

I want you to translate List of Khitan inscriptions into Chinese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.23.194.233 (talk) 01:43, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

我目前很忙，没有时间编辑Wikipedia，但是过了几个星期有空的话我就式一式翻译那篇文章。谢谢! BabelStone (talk) 11:49, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I hope you can sign up zh:Wikipedia:專題/漢字文化圈 soon. --60.10.60.36 (talk) 09:53, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Jersey Hoard?

Hi BS. I was wondering if you had heard about this yet: [2]. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:19, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, I hadn't heard about it. Sounds interesting. BabelStone (talk) 07:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Started the article at Grouville Hoard. BabelStone (talk) 12:27, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

I thought you just might. Excellent stuff. Let's hope we can use some good free images soon. Is the Legal situation the same in Jersey as in mainland UK? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:52, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

CJK-F

Why is it too early? There are documents referenced at the 38th IRG conference (June 2012) (http://appsrv.cse.cuhk.edu.hk/~irg/irg/irg38/IRG38.htm) which clearly talk about CJK-F, and not just as some hypothetical idea, but as a planned extension. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.61.17.166 (talk) 22:11, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it is planned, but until it gets on an SC2 ballot anything can happen. Do you remember how CJK-D suddenly turned into CJK-E and left several Wikipedia pages making confused statements about CJK-D as if it were CJK-E. Wikipedia articles should describe the current situation as it is, not act as a newspaper reporting the supposed content of some unknown future version of Unicode in God knows how many years time. If it were up to me I'd even remove mention of CJK-E until it is ready for inclusion on a ballot. BabelStone (talk) 22:35, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Grouville Hoard

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 16:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

DYK for List of hoards in the Channel Islands

Yngvadottir (talk) 08:03, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Jerry Norman

Really sorry to hear that. Kanguole 18:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I only heard today. I never met him, but he was an inspiration to me when I was learning Manchu, so creating an article for him is the least I could do, although it is still very basic. BabelStone (talk) 18:59, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Jerry Norman: Another fine contribution, BS. Compliments. -DePiep (talk) 21:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. BabelStone (talk) 21:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Stuart R. Schram

Yngvadottir (talk) 00:04, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Rus' Khaganate

Hi Babelstone. You seem to be so interested in the history of the word Knyaz that you have both deleted some text and gone calling some pretty uncontroversial information OR[3][4][5]. I am sure that if you consult for example this book, the information that you reacted so strongly against will appear less "OR". Good luck! --Berig (talk) 19:13, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Please keep article-related discussion on the article talk page. Thanks. BabelStone (talk) 19:16, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Relax Babelstone. I am just giving you some help here. Just look up the book and you'll be fine. Good luck with your editing!--Berig (talk) 19:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Thor: The Dark World

Thank you for your contributions to Thor: The Dark World, however the source you posted does not explicitly state that "Thursday Morning" is Thor: The Dark World and as such we cannot use it, despite the obvious similarities. If you wish you can discuss this further on the article's talk page. Thank you.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 18:43, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, everyone knows "Thursday Mourning" is "Thor 2" (just google it), but w/e. BabelStone (talk) 19:03, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to comment at Talk:Thor: The Dark World#Bourne Wood.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 19:07, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I will if I can find a RS that connects "Thursday Mourning" to Thor (there will probably be local newspaper coverage when filming starts). BabelStone (talk) 19:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Ash/Fae

There needs to be some sort of linkage between the two. I'm not sure what the proper way to do this is, but without the link a lot of context gets lost. aprock (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what the proper procedure is either, but tagging the account as a sock cannot be right. Indeed, linking an old account to a clean start account, even under these circumstances, seems to be rather strange in my opinion. Perhaps you had best ask a member of arbcom for advice. BabelStone (talk) 22:13, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

List of works by Robert Morrison (missionary)

List of works by Robert Morrison (missionary) has been blanked for violating your copy rites! --Pawyilee (talk) 14:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

BL visit

I am thinking of visiting this on the Tuesday or Thursday. When are you planning to go? Tibetologist (talk) 11:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I do have some days off work that I have to take before Christmas, so I am able to attend, but I hadn't decided whether to actually go or not (I prefer working on my own, and I'm not very good in social situations). But if you are going then I will too, as it would be nice to talk to you about Tangut (Slava and myself have been working on revised encoding proposals for Tangut characters and radicals, which we will submit in a few days time, so that they can be discussed at the WG2 meeting in Thailand next month -- in fact during the week of the IDP event). Just let me know which day you are going to BL, and I'll be there. BabelStone (talk) 12:05, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

• I was just about to leave a reminder here to say the dates were now firmed up, but I see you've noticed :-). Hope to see you there, & let me know if you have any recommendations for topics... Andrew Gray (talk) 14:57, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder. I'll let you know when I know which day I'll be there. For myself, I am considering working on the Dunhuang Pipa manuscripts. BabelStone (talk) 19:47, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• Dear Babelstone, I hope you can make it, I can assure you we are very friendly. If you have the pressmarks for the manuscripts I will see if we can order them up for you and I can prepare any relevant images for uploading. I've responded to your image requests and we plan to add plenty more over the week and beyond. Vicswift (talk) 17:21, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Vic, it is very kind of you. I am considering dropping by on Thursday (late morning to afternoon), and look forward to meeting you. I think I have all the material I need, but I'll let you know if I think of anything. BabelStone (talk) 11:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Liao Dynasty kaishu/xingshu

Hi there. Since you have Khitan language listed as an area of interest, I'm going to trust that you probably know more about it than I do. I'm about zh-0.5, and have no real knowledge of Chinese calligraphy, so you very well could be right. What I'm worried about with your change though, is that I'm pretty sure I got that directly from the Kane 2009 source. I honestly don't remember writing that, but I think I was the one that did, because when I started with that article, it had no inline citations.

I'm wondering, I guess, how sure you are about your change, and if it's based on direct knowledge or gut feeling. Keep in touch, I guess... Sven Manguard Wha? 22:06, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

And please, please, pretty please cite your additions. I don't want to be pushy, but I do intend on taking this to FA or at least GA level, and so I want to dot my 'i's and cross my 't's. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:11, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Sven Manguard Wha? 02:13, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Kane 2009 p.3 does indeed say:

Chinese records state that the large script was based on the Chinese calligraphic style known as li shu "clerical script", but it is clearly much more similar to the Chinese calligraphic style known as kai shu "standard script", and the small script is similar to the cursive style known as xing shu "running script".

But in an otherwise excellant book this is, in my opinion, a very misleading statement. It is true that the characters on some small script inscriptions are written in a more cursive style than the characters on most large script inscriptions, but calligraphic style is not a defining feature of the scripts. The recently-identified Khitan large script manuscript is written in cursive characters, and on the other hand some small script inscriptions are written in seal script characters. BabelStone (talk) 08:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Cool. Wikipedia is at its best when we're more current and more accurate than other top sources, it's our advantage. I suppose Kane now has a good excuse to come out with a new addition (and more royalties) now. Sven Manguard Wha? 16:27, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

List of hoards in Britain

Hi, you recently split of three sections of this page. I now have complaints at OTRS that the Map of all coordinates in "List of hoards in Britain" from Google link at the top of the original page is now incorrect, as it only maps the co-ordinates for that page alone, and misses out the pages split off. I've tried to see if I can tweak the text within the template to say Map of all coordinates in "List of Neolithic, Anglo-Saxon, Pictish, Viking and Medieval hoards in Britain" from Google - but the template script won't have it - it uses the text to give it a page name to harvest the co-ords. I've looked at the template script, but not an easy one to edit to allow a display text field, so I've left it well alone. The ideal would be that the template could be used like
{{GeoGroup|article=List of hoards in Britain|text=Hoards on this page}}
or similar. These articles / template are not one I know well, so maybe you can advise?  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 20:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I'll have a look at it, but I'm no expert in templates. BabelStone (talk) 20:33, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I've changed the page so that each section (including those for split off pages) has their own geogoup template, which I think should satisfy the OTRS complaint. It would also be possible to map all locations in all four list articles on a single map with a template such as {{GeoGroup|article=Category:Lists of hoards in Britain}} (need to create the category first), but they would not be subdivided into sections. I'm not sure whether the OTRS correspondent would think that is useful or not. BabelStone (talk) 21:07, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks - Well that's one better idea than I had - if not two! I'll have a play with the category idea.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 21:50, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Cloud Platform at Juyongguan

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Tangutology

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:02, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

DYK for The General's Garden (Tangut translation)

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Sir Lowthian Bell, 1st Baronet

Hi BabelStone, I've extended Lowthian Bell as directed. all the best - Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:07, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Email correspondence as source

Of course you can source something to a private correspondence. The information meets all of the criteria for a questionable source:

1. the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim - the expected date of publication is not contentious in any way.
2. it does not involve claims about third parties - as an officer of the standards committee, he is a first party
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source - the source is directly involved in the event
4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity - if you doubt the information, I can forward the email to you.
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources - this is a minor claim about a single section of a large article.

It meets all criteria for a questionable source - it is not a contentious, exceptional, critical, or otherwise spurious; the source has direct knowledge of the event; and the claim is purely informative and is not the basis for larger claims within the article. I've been through this before at the Reliable Sources board when we were documenting Tibetan Braille. However, I've found a PRI that mentions 6.3, so I'll start building it back. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 09:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I disagree -- private correspondence fails the verifiability test. Whatever Rick may say now, there is still time for the UTC to change their mind about whether to call the next version 6.3 or 7.0, and when it will be released, especially as v. 6.2.1 is scheduled for Spring 2013. We're an encyclopedia not a WP:CRYSTALBALL, so we can afford to wait until the UTC has announced what the next version of Unicode is before reporting it. Indeed we owe it to our readers not to report "expections". If you feel strongly then take it to the Unicode talk page. BabelStone (talk) 09:14, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I guess the real question is, would you have honestly removed the claim if it had been uncited? There is a threshold of contention, below which inline citations are not necessary. Specifically, does it meet WP:NOCITE? I don't see how there is any way that it would even meet that very basic criteria, and the currently in progress release of a standard really doesn't meet WP:CRYSTALBALL either: it is almost certain to take place, the information is not a claim about the future, but rather about the current planning. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 09:27, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Note that the latest approved UTC minutes (UTC #131) specifies:

• 6.2: a release to include one character, the Turkish Lira Sign, planned for September 2012
• 6.2.1: optional, with data and UAXes in mid-2013
• 7.0: January 2014 to include characters from amendments 1 and 2

The two draft UTC minutes (UTC #132 and UTC #133) do not mention the version after 6.2.1 at all, so clearly the UTC has not yet made a decision as to what the version will be called and when it will be released. Rick McGowan is a UTC member, but he is not the UTC, and a private email from him does not represent the UTC and is therefore not sufficiently reliable. BabelStone (talk) 09:28, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Of course I would have removed the claim if it was uncited! I am probably closer to the UTC than you, but I honestly do not know whether the next version will be 6.3 or 7.0, or whether it will be released in Summer or Autumn 2013. Of course there will be a new version of Unicode, but is still too far away to report yet. I would have no objections to you adding a statement about the scheduled 6.2.1 release, sourced to UTC #131 minutes. BabelStone (talk) 09:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Do you have access to notes from last month? Because Rick was saying that 6.2.1 was scratched in favor of 6.3, which would have, I believe, amendment 1 and the updated UAXes that would have made 6.2.1. He said Q3 of 2013, and I bet it's in the November notes. Of course, it's in draft, so it's still behind a login, and I lost the L2 password a couple years ago. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 09:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was looking at the agendas for UTC #132 and 132 not the actual minutes. The UTC #132 minutes still talks about 6.2.1 and 7.0, but the UTC #133 minutes (Nov. 2012) now talks about 6.3, but does not specify when it is scheduled for release, and does not indicate which (if any) character additions there will be for 6.3. I honestly believe it is still too early to be reporting the next version of Unicode until plans are more stable. BabelStone (talk) 10:10, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Camberley Obelisk

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)