Cmsmith93

READ ME

The following are rules I've setup for my Talk page. You're more than welcome to post whatever you like here, but if you expect me to engage with you then you need to work within the following framework.

1. If you have never read Introduction to Logic by Copi or A Concise Introduction to Logic by Hurley then please utilize my Talk page in a limited capacity. Do not use any of the following logical fallacies: straw man, band wagon, or red herring.

2. Criticisms/complaints of me are welcome. I just ask that you be specific. Quote exactly what I said or be specific about the action I did that you have an issue with.

3. Topics and comments must be fruitful/worthwhile and in good faith.

Howdy

Hi Chris,

It's Logan! Logantpowell (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Logan! My man. Welcome!

Could you email me? (option is on the right side) Cmsmith93 (talk) 17:17, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

A thing about noticing

While your alert to hobgoblin is alright, normally, when telling a user that they are subject to an ANI, you would use {{{subst:ANI-notice}}} (just without the extra {}). Thanks, that's all. Babysharkboss2!! ^{(Hells Bells (Talk Page btw))} 13:43, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

No. It says at the top of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents, "When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page" Cmsmith93 (talk) 01:17, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, with a link to the template right under it. Babysharkboss2!! ^{(Hells Bells (Talk Page btw))} 13:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Notice that you are now subject to an arbitration enforcement topic ban

The following topic ban now applies to you:

You are indefinitely topic banned from post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, broadly construed

You have been sanctioned for WP:CIR, WP:DEADHORSE, and WP:IDHT

This topic ban is imposed in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator under the authority of the Arbitration Committee's decision at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American politics 2#Final decision and, if applicable, the contentious topics procedure. This sanction has been recorded in the log of sanctions. Please read WP:TBAN to understand what a topic ban is. If you do not comply with the topic ban, you may be blocked for an extended period to enforce the ban.

If you wish to appeal the ban, please read the appeals process. You are free to contact me on my talk page if anything of the above is unclear to you. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:52, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Serious question: why are you here?

Cmsmith93, I have a serious question for you. Why are you editing Wikipedia, and what do you hope to achieve here? We all have our reasons, and it's not the same for everybody, and I just wondered what your reasons are, because I can't make it out. Looking at your 105 contributions thus far, I see that 77% of them are in Talk spaces, and none are improvements to articles. At the same time, in a single discussion at WP:AN, you name three admins who have called out your behavior previously. If we extrapolated that to 1,000 edits, 30 admins annoyed with you, and no article edits, and someone proposed to indefinitely block you at WP:ANI because you are clearly not here to build an encyclopedia, how would you respond? Actually, I don't think you have anywhere near that long, and you should respond now: Why are you here? Because currently, trouble seems to follow you around everywhere you go, and it's of your own doing. I think you have only a very short period to turn this around, before the decision will be taken out of your hands. So if you want to remain here and achieve something, time to do that is right now. Good luck, Mathglot (talk) 11:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I came here to make you saw Valjean's similar comment at WP:AN, in case you missed it before the section was archived. I share this question: what are your goals here? It's unclear to me. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 15:41, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

May as well copy it here: Cmsmith, why are you at Wikipedia? Are you here to battle, to find fault with others, to get them in trouble, and basically create more heat than light? Are you here to escalate or de-escalate problems? I get the feeling your focus is detrimental to the project, and I implore you to change your way of thinking. Stay as far away from drama boards as possible. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:10, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I have many goals here...

I'm here to learn and understand the workings, operations, and functions of this platform as a whole. I have a special thanks on my page to one editor/admin who has been extremely helpful to me. And of course many others have been.

Have good faith discussions. The Bureaucrat 28bytes and Admin such as Firefangledfeathers and Black Kite, to name a few I've interacted with, can all confirm I can have more disagreements than not, yet conduct myself in a manner suitable for future discussions. I may be a pain in the ass who is stumbling quite a bit as I learn my way around, but nobody can quote me being rude or condescending or anything like that. Because it's just not me.

Due to limited time I'm primarily focused on improving the RFK Jr article, but eventually I'd like to expand my focus to other articles and topics such as informal logic, physics, math, IT, ethics, symbolism.

I wish to improve some of the procedures, processes, and policies here. I reported a bad faith user (the wrong way?) and then when I try to improve that system by having a discussion so we can set the next guy up for success, the response is to have 5+ Admin think I'm in bad faith. Your system calls for consensus. The parameters simply are not clear enough, as I pointed out, in the header of ANI. And so I took the discussion to the Talk tab in AN with the relevant Admin's. There should be nothing wrong with that. Nobody who has a good faith report like that should feel discouraged and unwelcome to report such behavior. (Because of how bad this response to my post has been, I definitely feel I need to strive for Admin on this site). RfC's might need work -- I haven't looked at enough of them yet, but they may be votes only disguised as consensus. I am currently topic banned and the admin who did that hasn't provided me with quotes of me committing CIR, DEADHORSE, or the other one. I think that should be mandatory. These are all problems and I hope to get them all addressed and improve things for the next new user.

You make it seem like one of my goals here should be to please every Admin. I don't have a reason to believe this should be a goal of mine. From everything I've gathered, policies, the 5 pillars, and consensus rule here, not the Admin.

Valjean, you can see I had a very heated discussion with Zaathras very recently where I de-escalated it.

Gentlemen, I welcome disagreement, constructive feedback, and/or calling me out when I really am in bad faith. But this really isn't one of those times. So respectfully, I ask that if you're going to continue talking to me here you at least give me the respect of assuming good faith. Having disagreements with editors, admin's, and even bureaucrat's is encouraged on any platform that aims for the best form of the truth. If agreeing with most is the only path forward, then that is a bandwagon fallacy, and a fallacy I'm not willing to commit in search of the truth. Cmsmith93 (talk) 00:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I hardly know where to begin. Maybe point by point:

• learn and understand the workings...of this platform

  good;

• improving the RFK Jr article

  to be frank, this is a rotten choice for a new user. I've never even seen an article that was listed as a contentious topic in *three separate areas*, namely pseudoscience, living people, and Covid. This is really a hopeless place for you to try to get started. And because it is under extended confirmed protection, you can't even edit it. I would strongly advise spending your time elsewhere, and avoid contentious topics entirely for now.

• You make it seem like one of my goals here should be to please every Admin

  while admins are human, they will not take action on your account because you have displeased them, but because you have violated one or another Wikipedia policy or guideline. So, nobody is saying that should be a goal.

• policies, the 5 pillars, and consensus rule here, not the Admin

  correct; the admins have special privileges to enforce policies and guidelines.

• I welcome disagreement, constructive feedback, and/or calling me out when I really am in bad faith. But this really isn't one of those times.

  "Officer, I welcome a speeding ticket from you anytime I am speeding. But this isn't one of those times." Do you see the problem here, or do I need to explain?

• if you're going to continue talking to me here you at least give me the respect of assuming good faith

  I see no one here failing to assume good faith. Please do not mistake criticism or laying out the way you have violated policy or guidelines as failing AGF; they are in no way related.

• If agreeing with most is the only path forward...

  It is not. The path forward is to decide on a goal that is compatible with the goals of Wikipedia, which is primarily to build an online encyclopedia.

Left out above is my reaction to your largest paragraph in the middle of your post, which deserves a more detailed response, and maybe I'll get back to you. But in summary, while many processes and procedures could no doubt be improved (and many volunteer editors give their time to do just that) you simply have nowhere near the kind of experience yet which would enable you to help with such things. You don't have a single edit in article space, and you want to discuss how we should improve building articles? A thousand analogies come to mind, but laying one out would sound snarky, because it would be so ridiculous in the real world. At best, it makes you sound like an enthusiastic, well-meaning soul who doesn't know how much he doesn't know, and is merely trying everyone's patience explaining your misunderstanding of Thing One, when they urgently need to discuss actual, ongoing issues; and at worst, like a sealioning troll just trying to muck up the works while staying just this side of getting the heave-ho. And tbh, your words and actions thus far fit both scenarios equally well. An important corollary being that it doesn't matter what your intent is, if that is the effect; and that's partly where CIR comes into play.

In my opinion, your efforts so far are not a net positive to the encyclopedia, and if someone proposed an indefinite block right now, I'm honestly not sure how I would vote. I feel you are definitely going in the wrong direction, and it's late, and high time to change direction before you drive the car off the cliff. If I were you, I'd drop the RFK issue immediately, go pick three articles related to logic, physics, math, IT, ethics, or symbolism, and improve them. I would demonstrate in your edits that you know the importance of citing sources and how to do it. And I would do it *very* soon.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh to you, but you answered my question in detail (thank you for that), and I wanted to give you an honest answer, not a sugar-coated one. I think you are in peril, and need to act now to right the situation. Good luck, Mathglot (talk) 03:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

"Do you see the problem here, or do I need to explain?"

I do need this explained, honestly. I've never interacted with you before. Your initial question is vague, loaded, and arbitrary. This response too is a bit arbitrary. Obviously I can tell you're a bit frustrated, but why -- what did I say, or do, that brought you here? If it was something I did then let me know the action. If it was something I said, please quote me so I know exactly what we're talking about. Cmsmith93 (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

My initial question was to determine how your goals align with those of Wikipedia, as I didn't see you actually improving any articles so far. As to what brought me here, I saw your situation in the discussion at AN, and as a long-time editor, I can usually tell when an editor is in trouble and at risk for an indefinite block, so I came here to try to help you avoid that. Your responses here lead me to believe the risk is now higher than before, but I believe you can still avoid it, if you act now; I've already given you specific pointers about that. I think at this point, it really depends on what you want; that is, if you wish to keep editing here and are willing to comply with the community-developed policies and guidelines. I've already responded in detail point by point to your previous comment, and I don't wish to repeat myself. Additionally, if I've been ineffective in helping you thus far, my going into more detail now isn't likely to be any more so. Perhaps you will have better luck with another volunteer who is willing to give you better advice than I have been able to. I wish you the very best, Mathglot (talk) 01:51, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I only started the discussion in AN, but when I tried to go back to it a couple of days later I didn't see it there. Yeah this was all too vague unfortunately. Cmsmith93 (talk) 21:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I would like to add drop contentious topics for a while. I my self have had 1 of these moments . I recommend taking a step back sleep, read articles, think. Then silently resume editing and fixing issues •Cyberwolf•talk? 17:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Instructions at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

Can you please follow the instructions about substituting the template for the appeal? It's difficult for editors participating in the appeals process to follow along if the instructions for constructing the appeal aren't followed. Thanks! Philipnelson99 (talk) 23:01, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I hear ya Philip. There was instructions on one page, then you have to open up like two sub-sets of instructions. It's not easy to follow. I'll try again tomorrow or something. Cmsmith93 (talk) 23:07, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

And hey I did just copy/paste everything I said into a google doc so I can try to throw that into a correct format. You can delete if you'd like :) Cmsmith93 (talk) 23:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I've formatted the appeal for you, but this is a very bad idea. You would be wise to remove the appeal, make some strong contributions to articlespace in non-controversial topics, and try appealing again in a minimum of six months. You've been given good advice above about rectifying the impression you've given thus far, which is that you're not here to actually improve the encyclopedia but instead to disrupt the project and waste time. Attempting to appeal this restriction now, without having made any effort in articlespace nor demonstrated any awareness of why you're being met with suspicion, is likely going to fast-track you to not being allowed to edit the project at all. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 23:13, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

February 2024

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing because it appears that you are not here to build an encyclopedia.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.

This is a project to build an encyclopedia and you have not made a single edit to improve an encycledia article. And yet you have time to argue with other editors. Cullen328 (talk) 23:42, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Cullen, it says on that 'not here to build an encyclopedia' page, "Focusing on niche topic areas" is "What "not here to build an encyclopedia" is not". I've been talking in the RFK Jr Talk tab, an extended-protected page. Please check, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ACentralAuth/Cmsmith93 and you will see that I cannot edit the RFK Jr article due to a lack of 500+ edits.

Can you undo this now? Cmsmith93 (talk) 00:28, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Cmsmith93, I can't speak for the blocking admin, but I can say two things: 1) although you were previously not able to edit the RFK article (admins are well aware of your non-WP:XC status), there were nevertheless 6.7 million other articles you could have edited, including many in the list of wide-ranging interests you mentioned; and 2) neither Cullen nor any other admin will unblock you based on your last comment; you will have to follow the instructions in the block notice. This will be my last comment on this page unless you ask me specifically for specific help regarding being unblocked, which at this point, is the only thing this talk page should be used for. (Things can get worse: your access to this page can be revoked, so please do follow the links so that doesn't happen.) Hope things work out for you. Best, Mathglot (talk) 02:25, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

No, I will not undo this block. You have been editing for three years, and have increased your editing frequency in recent months. You have made 124 edits and not a single solitary one of them was to improve an actual encyclopedia article. Instead, you are debating on the talk page of a highly contentious article, showing your inability or unwillingness to understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and showing a great willingness to argue ad nauseum with editors with far more experience.

If you want to appeal the block, then read and study the Guide to appealing blocks, and file a properly formatted unblock request. Be absolutely sure that your unblock request addresses your own conduct, because unblock requests that blame other editors and lack self-awareness are very rarely successful. Your appeal will be reviewed by another administrator, not me, although that administrator may ask for my comments. Cullen328 (talk) 02:37, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi Cullen, so on the Guide to appealing blocks page it says, "It's important that you understand the reasons why the administrator blocked you before starting an unblock request." So, unfortunately, we have to continue this discussion so we can try to understand each other.

Can you please address this point, "Focusing on niche topic areas" is "What "not here to build an encyclopedia" is not"?

What policy or guideline is there for frequency of edits on this site?

Please quote where I am arguing with people. I haven't argued with anyone. I think I've handled every discussion very professionally so far. I can't help it if admin like yourself or other editor's get mad at me.

And then I have to address the real issue here because I need to appeal this and you didn't ban me because you don't like my lack of frequent edits. You banned me because you don't like me. Please quote what I said, or whatever I've done to offend you. Cmsmith93 (talk) 03:01, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

You say you're seeking to understand the reasons for the block, but you've immediately gone into defending your actions. Your question about "focusing on niche topics" is not inquiry, but a counterargument. You have not presented any evidence that the blocking admin was motivated by dislike of you personally or that they have taken offense, and unevidenced, argumentative assertions are unlikely to help your case. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:05, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Cm, you asked me a question via email that would be totally fine to ask here (and I prefer not to communicate via email when on-wiki discussion will do). Asking questions to understand more about the process or what led to your block is probably the best use of this talk page while you're blocked. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh ok. On the email I was just asking -- are Admin required to provide quotes along with charges for topic bans, blocks, etc or no, just present the charges and that's it really? Cmsmith93 (talk) 03:38, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

There's no requirement for how evidence needs to presented. Blocks need to be justified, and we have a limited duty to explain the rationale. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

That sucks :/ Cmsmith93 (talk) 04:27, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh hey Fire. I just emailed you. Now that's awkward. Could you respond to that email when you get a sec?

I'm going to have to have this discussion mainly with Cullen because he's the one who blocked me and from what I'm reading it's his reasoning I have to understand, but I'll respond to ya.

So I disagree I'm defending my actions. I can't defend my actions against this block just like I couldn't defend my actions against the topic ban -- because I don't know what they are. I asked Scottish to quote me twice on his Talk page, but he wouldn't. Cullen was mad at my report post of Hob Gadling. He hasn't quoted me and blocked me right after I appealed the topic ban and his best reasoning for blocking me is because I don't edit Wikipedia enough? That's a very weak argument and so I'm very skeptical he has good reasoning beyond he doesn't like me.

Fire, tell, please, where do you think I went wrong in all of this and what would you have done differently? How would you have reacted to their reaction to my Hob Gadling report? I didn't see any issues with moving the discussion to the AN talk page to improve the ANI header, but my post was deleted? What about the topic ban appeal? How would you defend yourself against that? Like what would you have said in that appeal?

I really do appreciate you stopping by Fire. The last four Admin I've met are all pretty pissed at me and there's no fruitful discussion taking place. I'm not learning anything from this but not to report anyone on this website ever again. Cmsmith93 (talk) 03:37, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

That's a lot of questions. If you can narrow it down to a few, I'd be happy to answer some. I urge you to stop asserting that other editors and admins have particular emotions and motivations. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:44, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Alright well what about this -- help me move forwards from here. What do I need to do to get this block and topic ban off of me? What do I need to learn, or maybe I need to apologize to someone? I don't know, but I keep addressing what's directly facing me and things keep getting worse so maybe I should just focus on moving forward. Also, I'm pretty busy this weekend so it may be a while until I respond. Again, thanks for keeping an eye on my Talk page here. I really hope we can get things to improve and get me some privileges back. Cmsmith93 (talk) 04:31, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Take some time. Consider if there are parts of your conduct you would consider changing. Express some willingness to change. Propose some attractive unblock conditions. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:35, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Well there's two things that seem clear to me moving forward. Stay away from AN/ANI and focus on improving articles that are not controversial. 28bytes (in an email exchange), and I think you as well, mentioned steering clear of those. So I'll have to look around and see what needs work in say physics, math, symbolism, ethics, informal logic, etc. Cmsmith93 (talk) 02:35, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

I would say, work on listening, understanding, and self-awareness. For example, Fff just told you to "stop asserting that other editors and admins have particular emotions" after you said they were pissed at you. They are not pissed at you, they are simply protecting the encyclopedia, without any animus towards you whatsoever; they're "just doing their job", if you want to think of it that way; not pissed, just all in a day's work. And yet, after Fff told you that, you came back with "or maybe I need to apologize to someone?" which tells me that you haven't been listening, or at least, you haven't understood.

Nobody is offended; you don't need to apologize to anyone. You've been blocked for violating Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you need to look at your behavior, look at the policies and guidelines, and *understand* why what you did was a violation. If you can't understand why what happened earlier was problematic, then you can't avoid repeating that behavior again after an unblock, right?

So your task now, is not to apologize, but to reflect, understand, and then, at the appropriate time, demonstrate your understanding in your own words, in a way that will persuade an admin (any admin) of your understanding, and therefore your knowledge of how to avoid falling into the same patterns as before. That is the task that is before you, and not apologizing. The self-awareness part, is in recognizing how you come across to other editors, and you're getting a dose of that on this page. Lmk if you need further feedback on that aspect. I'd recommend a wikibreak to smell the roses and get away from here for a while. When you feel that you're ready, come back and show the admins that you understand very well what happened before, and why it won't happen again. Good luck! Mathglot (talk) 11:36, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Your post a few hours ago at the top of this page saying "Due to most of the conversations on my Talk page being disruptive and fruitless, if you have never read Introduction to Logic by Copi or A Concise Introduction to Logic by Hurley then please utilize my Talk page in a limited capacity. Before posting, please familiarize yourself with logical fallacies. To name a few: straw man, band wagon, and red herring." is not encouraging. Doug Weller talk 09:41, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, instructing the administrator who blocked you to read your selected specific list of books about logic is an approach so counterproductive that it literally defies logic. I have been fully committed to this encyclopedia for over 14 years and trusted by the community as an administrator for over six years. Not once has my ability to reason logically ever been seriously called into question. Yes, other editors may come down on the other side of borderline cases, with respect, but implying that I am fundamentally illogical is a Christmas Bullet that is not going to fly. Cullen328 (talk) 10:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Are you familiar with READ ME messages in programming? Also, you haven't responded to my message to you above. Cmsmith93 (talk) 17:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

What is supposed to be encouraged on Talk pages? (Please cite the relevant policy/guideline) Cmsmith93 (talk) 17:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

The guideline is at WP:TALK.There are other distinctions, but in brief: article Talk pages are used to discuss article content and in particular, how to improve the article, whereas User talk pages may be used to discuss user behavior as seen through your edits. Reports about your behavior were posted here until eventually you were blocked, first from one area, then from the site. Once you are blocked, the appropriate use of this page narrows in scope, and is now pretty much restricted to appealing for an unblock (basically asking for a second chance), or comments or questions closely related to it.

I don't want to sound discouraging, but imho your appeal is likely to fail because it doesn't address the primary ingredient of an appeal, which is an acknowledgment of the conduct that led to it, which in turn implies an understanding of why you were blocked. If you don't understand the reason, you can ask for clarification to an extent, but that has to be done *before* the appeal. So, if you don't understand (as your sentence starting "So, I don't know..." strongly implies), I would remove your appeal below from this page before an admin responds to it. If you do understand, I would indicate that directly in your appeal—don't just state that you understand, but demonstrate it convincingly—and show how that understanding will influence your future behavior. Imho, almost everything you have written in your appeal below is either irrelevant, or hurts your case, and lacks the primary purpose of an appeal. Reread WP:APPEAL and limit your statement to only what is required, and leave out the rest. Good luck. Mathglot (talk) 01:14, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Cmsmith93 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

Two reasons: 1. Per WP:GAP, "You, as a blocked editor, are responsible for convincing administrators: that the block was not necessary to prevent damage or disruption (i.e., that the block violates our blocking policy)." Cullen never quoted what I said, or did, that was 'damaging' or 'disruptive' in his initial block and after asking him multiple times he still hasn't quoted me. The block came at a strange time -- right after I tried to appeal my topic ban set by Scottish. So, I don't know what it was that I was doing that was damaging or disruptive to the community, but I'm going to assume it's not appealing topic bans? 2. After speaking with Firefangledfeathers and 28bytes (this was in an email) I realize that I need to basically 'start small' here on Wikipedia. I disagree with the idea that someone is going to become better suited to discuss policy as they make more and more Wikipedia edits, outside of policy and guidelines, but this is the way things are done here and so that's what I will follow. 28bytes made it clear that I should edit "articles that are not subject to edit count restrictions". And then maybe one day move on to things like controversial topics, and then further down the line dive into the policies, guidelines, etc. 28bytes also suggested listing some articles I plan on editing. Articles involving physics, math, information technology, the U.S. military, informal logic, formal logic, ethics, poetry, and symbolism are all things I can touch up and contribute to.Cmsmith93 (talk) 00:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Cullen328 quite clearly stated what you did wrong- "This is a project to build an encyclopedia and you have not made a single edit to improve an encycledia article. And yet you have time to argue with other editors." No one's going to write a blow by blow account of what specifically was wrong- you need to be able to figure this out yourself and articulate it to us as part of being unblocked- be it in the near term or per the standard offer. You'll also need to agree to topic bans from post-1992 US politics and vaccine related subjects. I am declining your request. 331dot (talk) 11:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

331dot I tried to address that reasoning, but got ignored by Cullen... "Focusing on niche topic areas" is "What "not here to build an encyclopedia" is not" and Cullen pulled a red herring and didn't address that point. He also never addressed any of my follow up, "Hi Cullen, so on the Guide to appealing blocks page it says, ..." If you look at my first post on the RFK Jr article (Archive 3, "The evidence for the two claims in the first sentence are too weak."), you'll see I put a lot of effort into that post. If I was someone who puts in minimal effort or was here to be disruptive, then I wouldn't read 5+ articles and PDF's and clearly outline the faults in each one. I would probably do something close to what the dozen or so IP Address user's have been doing, or worse.

It's very odd to me that so many Admin here think it's reasonable to have one person guess another person's reasoning. Hopefully in a fictional scenario/example you can see how outlandish that request is. Let's say I'm a Bureaucrat and I remove your Admin privileges and I put an indefinite block on your account. I say, "It's because you have a history of CIR and ADMINABUSE." When you appeal the block and loss of your Admin privileges I refuse to clarify and tell you, "331, it's not my job to clarify for you. You need to guess what you did wrong. Go ahead of quote every time you committed CIR and ADMINABUSE for me and I'll remove the block and restore your Admin privilege's." I hope that clarifies things a bit and I hope you Admin push to make quoting the user mandatory for you guys, unless the user is clearly bad faith or racist or something, but otherwise - when someone is repeatedly asking to be quoted, that should be the standard, so everyone is on the same page and everyone can continue the discussion.

I didn't realize that some of these blocks can have timers less than 'indefinite' on them? I know you've already made your decision so I don't know if this can continue, but what do the Admin think about changing the timer from Indefinite to something a bit more finite? -- A few months maybe? I'd still like eventually to be able to edit pages. Oh and I already did agree to the vaccines and post-1992 U.S. politics bans. I don't like it, but I do agree to the terms, again, because I'm trying to be able to one day edit pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmsmith93 (talk • contribs) 06:35, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

28bytes Nah, didn't work. I'm just getting ignored. 28, if steps from a Bureaucrat mean nothing to Admin, how am I, or anyone, supposed to get through an unblock appeal or a topic ban appeal? I'm also having difficulty understanding how warnings do not have to be issued before being topic banned or blocked and also how it's not mandatory for Admin to quote the user's wrongs. It makes punishments too easy to give and too difficult to appeal. I don't know. As always, any tips/advice are appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmsmith93 (talk • contribs) 05:25, 11 March 2024 {UTC) (UTC)

None of this is part of an appeal, right? So being ignored is no surprise. Bureaucrats can't remove Admin rights unless requested. That has to be done by the WP:Arbitration Committee through a hearing where the Admin and others can discuss the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 08:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

331dot When should I appeal to be unblocked again? Cmsmith93 (talk) 07:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

You can appeal again when you are ready if you are prepared to do as you have been asked.

Blocks are not a punishment, but a means of preventing disruption to Wikipedia.

Putting an end date on the block does nothing for you showing us that you understand why you were blocked.

If I was to be blocked, that's exactly what I would be expected to do- tell specifically what I did wrong so that it will be known that I won't repeat it. Everyone here is a volunteer, and won't take the time to write a blow by blow litany of specific actions. If that was done, I would just agree with it, which doesn't show my understanding- and go right back to doing the same thing wrong. We don't want people to do that- we don't want to take the time to block them again. We want you to be a productive editor. You have had your wrongs quoted, "This is a project to build an encyclopedia and you have not made a single edit to improve an encycledia article. And yet you have time to argue with other editors." Furthermore, upon request, you were told "No, I will not undo this block. You have been editing for three years, and have increased your editing frequency in recent months. You have made 124 edits and not a single solitary one of them was to improve an actual encyclopedia article. Instead, you are debating on the talk page of a highly contentious article, showing your inability or unwillingness to understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and showing a great willingness to argue ad nauseum with editors with far more experience." You have been given additional advice by others. I suggest you follow it. 331dot (talk) 09:33, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Unblock discussion

@Cullen328: OK to unblock? -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 09:30, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I would favor an unblock if Cmsmith93 either:

1. articulates what they have done wrong and makes a commitment to avoiding that conduct in the future
2. accepts a TBAN from vaccines and American politics as an unblock condition

Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:11, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Deepfriedokra, I personally oppose an unblock at this time because the editor shows no sign of truly understanding why their behavior was and continues to be disruptive. Instead, the obnoxious, uncollaborative READ ME section remains at the top of this page, and I am treated to comments like Are you familiar with READ ME messages in programming? Also, you haven't responded to my message to you above.. I have explained my thinking several times. I am under zero obligation to write a word-by-word analysis of this editor's "not here" behavior, which is clear to any experienced uninvolved editor. I have countless better things to do with my volunteer time, like expand and improve encyclopedia articles, which this editor has never done. That being said, if you decide to unblock, I will not object. Cullen328 (talk) 18:38, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I feel like the appellant is trying to drown us in a sea of words. Appellant needs to reread the WP:GAB. As far as as README messages go, in my thirty years of computer ownership, I never saw one worth reading. Perhaps Firefangledfeathers proposal has merit. If they or another admin feels good about unblocking, I would not oppose.

I disagree with appellant's belief about experience. I know from on and off again eighteen years of Wikipedia editing that experience does make one better able to discuss policy. I also find secret, hidden away from view email discussions abhorrent and contrary to the openness collaborative editing on this collaborative project requires.

Cullen328 makes good points and I shan't be unblocking at this time. I will leave this ticket open in case one of my colleagues is more easily convinced than I, though my feeling now is that the WP:standard offer is the way to proceed.. -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 19:37, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I know I brought up programming to Cullen, but the READ ME is just supposed to catch everyone's eye so they will read it and hopefully I can have a better Talk page.

'Fresh eyes' might see issues those with experience have gotten used to. Cmsmith93 (talk) 23:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

As far as 1 goes, it's impossible for me to articulate what I did wrong because I don't know what I did wrong. This is why I asked Cullen multiple times to clarify, but he he refuses to do that.

2. I wish this wasn't a thing, but sure. For a long while I'll ignore those. Cmsmith93 (talk) 23:37, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I forgot you already have an active TBAN from American politics, so it would really just be the vaccine add-on. I do think this will make your unblock more attractive, but we'll see how the next responding admin feels. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm uncertain. I guess I'm tempted by Fff's 2-point proposal. I think I would be swayed to support it if a third point were added (as an AND-condition, not an OR), something like:

3. if they sketched out roughly what they thought they might work on in the first month or two, with links to a few pages they are interested in contributing to.

My concern relates to our goal as an encyclopedia vs. their namespace totals; I first elucidated this concern above at § Serious question: why are you here? but things moved too quickly after that to see how that might've turned out, had they had more time; in the three days between my post and Cullen's block, they were mostly dealing with AE. I'd still like to know, though. (Non-administrator comment) Mathglot (talk) 02:51, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Cmsmith93 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

Hey guys, ok, round two. Hopefully I can do a bit better this time around. So, per WP:GAB, I'm selecting, "that the block was not necessary to prevent damage or disruption". 1a) So Cullen and 331bot claim WP:NOTHERE and the first issue they point to is my lack of edits. On WP:NOTHERE page there is no requirement that says something like, "All user's must make x amount of edits within t amount of time." so my lack of edits seems to be irrelevant. I would like to make more edits in the future. I have outlined above the pages and topics I could contribute to. 1b) The other issue they've put forth is my edits being 'disruptive'. Cullen's block was in response to my topic ban appeal that Scottish put on me day's before. I don't think topic ban appeals would be interpreted as "disruptive behavior". And I haven't received a single quote of anything I said or did that was disruptive so I don't think 'disruption' holds. 2a) On this same WP:HTBAE page, I see points of what "Being here to build an encyclopedia" looks like. First, "Genuine interest and improvement". To prove this, I point to my first 'edit' in the RFK Jr article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Robert_F._Kennedy_Jr./Archive_3#The_evidence_for_the_two_claims_in_the_first_sentence_are_too_weak. Whether or not you agree with my argument, I think we can all agree I did my due diligence reading every source and addressing all of them in a professional tone. That amount of effort, especially when compared to the average Talk page edit, and the attitude, should clearly show I'm genuinely interested in improving the article. And hell, I did all of that work just to edit one sentence. 2b) "Respect for core editing standards" You can see throughout my history -- RFK Jr page, Vivek Ramaswamy page, the ANI page, etc, that I prefer to have a good faith discussion and come to some consensus about what edits to make. Being so new I'm not comfortable with just editing pages before making some suggestions that people end up agreeing on. 2c) "A focus on encyclopedia building" The only "Non-encyclopedia-related contributions" I've made were all out of necessity. Reporting Hobgadling, trying to fix the ANI header, appealing my topic ban, appealing this unblock request. I think those were all things that needed to be addressed in order to improve this website. I do have a question that may conflict with this moving forward -- Can I make my way over to pages like RfB and WP:Arbitration Committee or is that going to cause problems? 2d) "Self-correction and heeding lessons" I have posted a bunch of useful policies, guidelines, and tips on my User page. I have personally thanked Cabayi because he's answered over a dozen of my questions. I have visited the Teahouse a few times. Every time somebody cites some policy I go and read it to understand it better and understand Wikipedia better. I don't think anyone will find many, if any, examples in my history that suggests otherwise. 3a) Firefangledfeathers suggested I agree to keep the vaccine and post-1992 politics topic ban. I do agree to this. I still haven't been given a timeline, which would be nice. When should I make the appeal? After a year? After 100 edits? Cmsmith93 (talk) 01:46, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Procedural decline only. This unblock request has been open for more than two weeks but has not proven sufficient for any reviewing administrator to take action, or you have not responded to questions raised during that time. You are welcome to request a new block review if you substantially reword your request. To be unblocked, you must convince the reviewing administrator(s) that

• the block is not necessary to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, or
• the block is no longer necessary because you
  1. understand what you have been blocked for,
  2. will not continue to cause damage or disruption, and
  3. will make useful contributions instead.

Please read the guide to appealing blocks for more information. Yamla (talk) 18:33, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

It's true there is not an article editing quota to meet- but when you have time to argue on talk pages, contributing nothing to the improvement of an article, yes, that is NOTHERE. 331dot (talk) 08:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Ohhhhh. FINALLY! Specifics! Now we can progress this conversation because I know what you're talking about. I did address this already in my last unblock request, just as a fyi/reminder; "After speaking with Firefangledfeathers and 28bytes (this was in an email) I realize that I need to basically 'start small' here on Wikipedia. I disagree with the idea that someone is going to become better suited to discuss policy as they make more and more Wikipedia edits, outside of policy and guidelines, but this is the way things are done here and so that's what I will follow. 28bytes made it clear that I should edit "articles that are not subject to edit count restrictions". And then maybe one day move on to things like controversial topics, and then further down the line dive into the policies, guidelines, etc." Cmsmith93 (talk) 01:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Firefangledfeathers GorillaWarfare Hey Firefangledfeathers and GorillaWarfare, sorry to bother you two. Do you know what the hold up is here? I put in for my second unblock request and it looks like no new Administrator's have looked at it yet and it's been a few weeks. This will go to new Admin's right, or am I supposed to convince 331dot until he undoes it? Cmsmith93 (talk) 21:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

331dot Am I good to go then or no? Cmsmith93 (talk) 21:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Muboshgu Hi Muboshgu, sorry to bother you. Could you take a look at things here? I'm not understanding why I'm getting no response from the other administrators. Am I doing something wrong? I thought I put in for my second block appeal ok. Any guidance would be helpful/appreciated.Cmsmith93 (talk) 21:30, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Cmsmith93, you missed the signatures on a few attempted pings, which causes them to fail. Courtesy pings for @GorillaWarfare and Muboshgu. No, you don't need to convince 331dot, and an uninvolved admin should be along eventually to evaluate your unblock request. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 01:40, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't get the first ping, but I got the second one. I'm probably not the best choice for an uninvolved admin since I've been quite active on Talk:RFK Jr. Did we interact directly? I don't recall. I don't know why that request has not been responded to yet. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

No, I just thought everyone was afk or something. I just went to ANI and looked for an active admin and saw your name. Cmsmith93 (talk) 15:24, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh. I just thought I needed to put the double square brackets around User:'name'|'name' and it would ping people -_-

Well, I will be more patient moving forward :) Cmsmith93 (talk) 15:22, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Cmsmith93 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

I'm confused. Yamla closed the last request because it was taking too long for Administrator's to get to it? That doesn't have to do with my behavior. So again, can I be unblocked? Same reason I used last time since Yamla didn't respond to it. That reason is above. If possible, I'd like to have a fruitful conversation that takes place within a reasonable timeframe. Over three months I've had a block on me.

Decline reason:

I don't think we're really making any progress here. Your post below is basically just wikilawyering, which is continued from your previous unblock request. There are currently over 100 unblock requests open, and part of that is because admins sometimes look at unblock requests and just don't want to deal with them. Some people come to Wikipedia just to argue rather than to write encyclopedia articles. You're not doing anything to dissuade us that you're one of those people. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. We don't have to prove to you that there's rule that says "Yamla can decline unblock requests that don't get attention." It doesn't have to be written anywhere! The bureaucracy that you seem to want to exist simply does not. If you truly want to write encyclopedia articles, and you've read through our intro "what is Wikipedia" pages, you can make another unblock request via WP:UTRS. But we need to cut down on the number of bad unblock requests that are currently flooding the queue. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Ah shoot, I missed your second sentence Yamla, "You are welcome to request a new block review if you substantially reword your request." There is a rule that if you guys take too long you can continue the block? Where is that written? And then the second issue you brought up was "you have not responded to questions raised". What questions do you need answered? Also, how can I remove my unblock request that I just made? Obviously if we're talking I don't need that request up for the time being.Cmsmith93 (talk) 02:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Your ability to edit this talk page has been revoked as an administrator has identified your talk page edits as inappropriate and/or disruptive.

(block log • active blocks • global blocks • autoblocks • contribs • deleted contribs • abuse filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, you should read the guide to appealing blocks, then contact administrators by submitting a request to the Unblock Ticket Request System.
Please note that there could be appeals to the unblock ticket request system that have been declined leading to the post of this notice.

UTRS appeal #92755

Closed. I've left some instructions on how to appeal. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 05:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)