Crowea-RBGV

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New species of Lobelia

Hello Crowea-RBGV,

Thanks for your work (including on the Boronia and Zieria botanist, Marco Duretto). I noticed your addition to the list of Lobelia species. Unfortunately, L. fontana and L. fenshamii are not yet accepted as valid names by Plants of the World Online or the Australian Plant Census and since the header to the article has "accepted by the POWO", it's probably premature to include them. They were only described in 2020, and the cogs at POWO and APC move slowly. Perhaps they could be mentioned at the bottom of the page? Gderrin (talk) 11:46, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I noticed that note about POWO after I had done it and was thinking of deleting it tomorrow, I thought that would be more appropriate and less work for everyone. What do you think? Crowea-RBGV (talk) 12:52, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah, just saw you deleted it. All good. I won’t add a note at this point. Cheers Crowea-RBGV (talk) 12:55, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Yep - added a note at the bottom of the list page. Thanks for noticing the new names. Gderrin (talk) 12:57, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Gderrin. These names have now been uploaded into POWO. Is it acceptable for me to delete your comment at the bottom of the page now and insert the new taxa listings, or do I have to make an annotation on your note? Crowea-RBGV (talk) 02:13, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello again,

Thanks for your work on this - it would be great if you made the fixes and deleted my note. (I guess you realise that Lobelia douglasiana will need to be moved.) Gderrin (talk) 02:29, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm.... I see you're fairly new here and busy with other work. Maybe I should look after the move - L. douglasiana to L. stenophylla. I'll leave the other jobs to you? Gderrin (talk) 07:18, 3 September 2021 (UTC) Difficulty is, the Australian Plant Census accepts both names, L. douglasiana and L. stenophylla. So what is an editor who wants to expand the L. douglasiana article to do? Gderrin (talk) 07:52, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I see the predicament. Even though WOPO doesn't accept it because of a 2007 publication doesn't mean L. douglasiana can't be listed. You may need to make a statement that it is accepted in Australia, where it is native, and it is an accepted name based on x, y and z. I could try and get onto Neville Walsh and have a chat with him. He may know more detail as to why APC accepts and WOPO doesn't. Also looks like WOPO is out of date. The distribution maps do not take into account WA, which is the only state L. douglasiana seems to reside in. L. stenophylla seems to have been misapplied to the WA taxon of L. douglasiana. APC is 2010, so Albrecht et al. must have done some work in the three years after the Lobeliaceae list was done in 2007. Crowea-RBGV (talk) 08:06, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Of course! I should have realised that myself. The remaining problem is L. winfridae/L. winifrediae. I think the correct spelling is L. winfridae, because that's the spelling used by Diels in his description, even though it was named for "Miss Winifred George". I have contacted POWO and suggested a spelling change. Gderrin (talk) 10:23, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes. Winifridae is correct as the -iae ending is an orthographic variant and under the Botanical code it gets changed to -ae. Stearn’s Botanical Latin has a section on naming plants after people and when to use the correct endings. Crowea-RBGV (talk) 14:16, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I may have jumped the gun there. Just noted Peter Wilson’s comment in APNI. I’d have to I would go with Peter. I’m going to look into the reason though. Wonder what it is? Crowea-RBGV (talk) 14:21, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

The reply from Rafaël Govaerts was "If it was named for Miss Winifred it MUST be winifrediae irrespective of what the author published. The 2018 Botanical code works retroactively." I guess he thinks Diels made "typographical or orthographical errors". Gderrin (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Diels is correct and Peter Wilson's comment on APNI stands. I think this is the case based on Recommendation 60C: 60C.1. When forming specific and infraspecific epithets from personal names already in Greek or Latin, or that possess a well-established latinized form, the epithets, when substantival, should (Art. 60.8 notwithstanding) be given the appropriate Latin genitive form (e.g. alexandri from Alexander or Alexandre, alberti from Albert, arnoldi from Arnold, augusti from Augustus or August or Auguste, ferdinandi from Ferdinand or Fernando or Fernand, martini from Martinus or Martin, linnaei from Linnaeus, martii from Martius, wislizeni from Wislizenus, edithae from Editha or Edith, elisabethae from Elisabetha or Elisabeth, murielae from Muriela or Muriel, conceptionis from Conceptio or Concepción, beatricis from Beatrix or Béatrice, hectoris from Hector; but not ‘cami’ from Edmond Gustave Camus or Aimée Camus). Treating modern family names, i.e. ones that do not have a well-established latinized form, as if they were in third declension should be avoided (e.g. munronis from Munro, richardsonis from Richardson). I believe Rafaël may be looking at 60.8. The termination of specific or infraspecific epithets derived from personal names that are not already in Greek or Latin and do not possess a well-established latinized form (see Rec. 60C.1) is as follows: (b) If the personal name ends with a consonant (but not in ‑er), substantival epithets are formed by adding ‑i- (stem augmentation) plus the genitive inflection appropriate to the gender and number of the person(s) honoured (e.g. lecard‑ii for Lecard (m), wilson‑iae for Wilson (f), verlot‑iorum for the Verlot brothers, braun‑iarum for the Braun sisters, mason‑iorum for Mason, father and daughter). I will try and contact Neville and Peter for comment and get back to you. Crowea-RBGV (talk) 05:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree 100% with all of that. Thanks for your work. Yesterday I messaged POWO: "Hello Rafaël, Thanks for your speedy reply. I’m not about to argue - I was relying on Article 60.1. That must have been my mistake." Seems to me that Rafaël thinks that Diels made a typographical error and latinised "Winfrid" to give winfridiae instead of "Winifred" to winifrediae. Gderrin (talk) 06:49, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

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