User talk:Drmies/Archive 33

Editor creating articles with Prod alread attached.

Very weird. User:Portdarwinfc has been creating pages with the Prod already there. They are all non-notable as they haven't played in a fully professional league. Not sure what to do. Bgwhite (talk) 22:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• You can question their sanity... I looked at a few of them, but they weren't deleted before so they're not copies, as I've seen happen. Another editor is endorsing the PRODs; let's see what happens, unless you can come up with something smarter. I'm baffled myself. Drmies (talk) 23:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• What about stretching {{db-a7}} given the unusual circumstances?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:14, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• Well, that's an option, but I don't know the notability requirements for the different leagues and divisions per WP:FOOTY. If you're any good at that, go ahead. It doesn't answer the weird question ("huh?"), though... Drmies (talk) 00:16, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• The sanity question may not be answerable, but its effects can be dealt with. Actually, I stay away from sports articles because of notability confusion. However, I don't think that notability matters here. What matters is whether an article created with the apparent understanding that it shouldn't be created can be speedily deleted using a criterion that wasn't really intended to be used this way (A7 doesn't concern itself with notability). I thought about trying one out and seeing what a reviewing admin would do, and then I thought about it coming back to haunt me at some as yet unknown RfA ("it is clear that Bbb23 has a fundamental misunderstanding of CSD and its criteria"). So, I took the cowardly way out and asked here so I could share the blame. :-) Shameless.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• I almost understood that fourth sentence. At any rate, I think it's giving too much credit: I am not sure that the creator understands what they're doing, though I admit that begs the question of why they created them like that in the first place. OK, I put an A7 on Ro Ward, and the sanity question will soon be moot given the similarity between the editor's name and Port Darwin FC. Now you go ahead and look up how and whether that club should be deleted. Drmies (talk) 01:17, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
• And I called you out on your talk, Bbb. Ha. Drmies (talk) 01:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) *Sigh, you forced me to count my sentences. Convoluted, yes, but understandable, he says with perfect objectivity. I'll watch your A7 (better you than me - you're already an admin). Why focus on Port Darwin FC in particular? It looks like most of the club articles I've seen, no better, no worse, not that I ever examine them carefully. Full of colorful icons and very few citations. The infamous WP:ATH says up front, "This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) will meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia." - and then proceeds to talk only about people, NOT about clubs directly. The closest it comes is when it talks about individual seasons, but it presumes the team is notable. It's a mess - as are the articles. I'll edit the article a bit but won't go any further than that.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I assumed the guideline was "any article that says it is about football is notable". I gave up policing sports articles, too much venom, and the fans travel in packs. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:40, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

LOL.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• I asked a question here and consider Drmies a friend, so I definitely have sanity issues. The club is notable and should have an article. However, playing for the club is not notable as the league is not fully professional. User:Sir Sputnik has also been Proding the articles. When I have a football question, I ask Sputnik as he deals almost exclusively with football. Policing football articles isn't too bad. The worst is American football and basketball as there is a group that considers any college basketball/football athlete notable. They have started on high school athetes being notable... grrr Bgwhite (talk) 02:05, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• With high school athletes, I reckon we're just following ESPN. If they produce shows that feature high schoolers, they generate the coverage that editors here can use or abuse to create those articles. If reliable sources write about crap (like Crap on Twitter), we get "encyclopedic" articles about crap. Drmies (talk) 02:14, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Some crap belongs in an encyclopedia. some does not. LadyofShalott 03:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Meconium? Thanks for reminding me of my future. Drmies (talk) 03:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Always glad to oblige! :) LadyofShalott 03:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Greetings from WP:FOOTY - I can confirm that even if these player articles weren't BLPPRODs, they would be non-notable anyway and eligible for regular PROD/AfD - they fail both WP:NFOOTBALL and WP:GNG. The league they play in isn't notable enough for an article (it appears to be minor, regional, amateur) and the club doesn't appear to meet consensus for notability at WP:FOOTY (i.e. playing in a national cup competition). The articles being deleted isn't a case of if, it's a case of when. GiantSnowman 07:55, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• The club is indeed notable, but the players certainly are not. GiantSnowman 14:34, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, I'll bite, how do you decide based on the sports notability guidelines that the club is or isn't notable?--Bbb23 (talk) 14:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• There's nothing in community policy, we tend to use WP:FOOTYN which is an essay that, for player notability at least, is not fit for purpose - but for clubs it says "All teams that have played in the national cup" which is based on longstanding consensus. Perhaps we need to add a section at WP:ORG for sports clubs? GiantSnowman 14:50, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the essay pointer. We should add something to a notability guideline. One possibility is WP:ORG, but what about WP:NSPORT? It says it relates to clubs as well as atheletes but then never follows through on its promise.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:04, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Slight crossover in posting - I was going to post at ORG but realised NSPORTS was better, please see Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Team notability. GiantSnowman 15:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• I see we were all working on the same thing at the same time. I've nixed all the players, citing "See precedent, Ro Ward", which was deleted by another admin (thus I feel that we've had plenty of oversight and consensus for these deletions). Drmies (talk) 15:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Why are we leaving in any of the players in that section if there's no source for them? I get a little lost because it's a club with multiple teams (isn't it?), and don't different players play for different teams? So how are we supposed to know which of these players plays for what? And why do we even care if we're going to nominate the club for deletion? I feel like I know more than I did before I started and yet now know that I know very little (knock yourself out, Drmies, with this sentence).--Bbb23 (talk) 15:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Drmies - you won't hear any complaints from me! Bbb23 - we tend to only list players in the the first-team senior squad, which could range from 15 to 40+ depending on the size of the club and the level they play at. It is assumed that all the players listed are senior 1st teamers - but if you want to remove as unreferenced, be my guest. GiantSnowman 15:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I'm just taking one step at a time. I have no intention of AfDing the club--I don't know enough (or care enough) about FOOTY notability for that. I don't know about multiple teams either; again, I'm happy to leave that to the expert--the Snowman. I'm a little bird, Bbb, and I drive wholly on instinct. Drmies (talk) 15:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• The club has already been AfDed by me this morning, nom withdrawn within 1 hour after notability was established. GiantSnowman 15:46, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, I had to read the AfD discussion to sort of understand why the club is notable. I would never have known what to do to figure it out on my own, and I still don't completely understand it. A couple of times in the past when I got involved in questioning notability for sports-related articles, I got the same kind of confusing but well-intentioned feedback that assumed I knew what anyone was talking about. This is all Drmies's fault for sucking me into this on his Talk page. I'm going back to staying away from sports articles.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Don't blame me, Bbb--I didn't start this thread. As an admin, I simply follow the directions other peons editors give me. Sometimes it's soccer, sometimes it's bareback gay porn, sometimes it's buckets full of semen. Yes, we aim to please. Drmies (talk) 16:05, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• I blame everything that happens on your Talk page on you. It's a nice, simple rule that even this peon idiot editor can follow.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• That is an excellent rule to live by. Drmies (talk) 18:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Hey, I started the thread. Hmmm, didn't I also start the last bareback gay porn thread too? Umm, yea, um, still blame Drmies for everything. It makes things much simpler. Yea, that's it. FYI... I'm a minion, not a peon. Bgwhite (talk) 20:43, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Bacon taco shells

A friend of mine just made some bacon taco shells, used the bacon weave, and shaped them with aluminium foil (I think). They look bacon-tastic.--kelapstick^(bainuu) 23:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

• You mean online friend, and you didn't get to taste them? Sounds great, though--but I gotta tell you, I made BBQ last night, and now all I want for the next couple of days is water and cucumbers. And it's summer here. Are you going back to Mongolia again? Drmies (talk) 00:18, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Too bad you aren't here. We planted about 15 hills of cucumbers, different types. I have more than enough garden fresh cukes for a small town. zucchini and yellow squash, too. Watermelons aren't in yet though. Only way I can make sure I get proper exercise. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 00:24, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
    • 15 hills. Where are you living, man? I have a acre or so of the side of one hill, so planting 15 of the things ... As for bacon taco shells, ah well, my congenital disposition to high cholesterol has recently surfaced and, alas, bacon is now a luxury to be consumed in small quantities. Which is a bugger, because one of my brothers has just bought his seventh porker & it won't be long before there is a continuous supply of stuff I am not permitted. - Sitush (talk) 00:40, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
      • No I didn't get to try them, although they probably wouldn't have lasted through the TPAC flight. I should be back in Mongolia in mid August (in theory), playing with some clever routings, I am thinking either Halifax-London-Istanbul-Bishkek-Ulan Bator or Toronto-London-Zurich-Beijing-Ulan Bator. Exciting, well at least it is for me, since my hobby is finding clever flight routings. Minimize cost, maximize service, maximize frequent-flyer points. I should open a travel agency. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 01:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
    • I have 1.5 acre. A hill is only about 8 foot in diameter, mine are a bit close. My neighbor has several tractors, got him to turn and disk 25'x100' area for me. The soil came off the bottom of a large creek bed, very fertile, plus I have huge compost piles we worked in. Yeah, I got a little carried away with the garden :) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:24, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Did the bacon taco shell idea came from Epic Meal Time? They have an episode where they do that with pies. User:King4057 02:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Not sure, but I saw a bacon soup bowl on Instructables one time.--kelapstick^(bainuu) 02:51, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Peter Dorschel, DYK hook

I know that you tweaked some stuff at Peter Dorschel. Can you see a DYK hook in there anywhere? I don't often bother with DYK but this is such an oddball situation and it has flown under most radars since 1967. As any good espionage event should, I suppose! - Sitush (talk) 00:35, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Did you know that Peter Dorschel's wife was caught sunbathing in the nude? And will you please get me that photo? Drmies (talk) 01:09, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
• I think the "little fish" thing is the way to go, Sitush--that he only got so many years because he was just a little fish, according to the sentencing judge? Drmies (talk) 01:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Thanks for the warnings on the page I created. I wanted to see what the template would look like. Thanks for letting me know I have a sandbox to try things out! Let's hope I don't make any more mistakes!

Peace & Love,

FRE1991DDIE

FRE1991DDIE (talk) 04:11, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Next time, do it in a sandbox. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 04:19, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

DYK

Horse burial, eh? Interesting read indeed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Good addition. You may want to incorporate some material from Domestication of the horse, which contains some sourced material on some of the early chariot burials and such. Montanabw^(talk) 15:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks--there are more horse articles than one can shake a stick at. Time to make a horse template, Montana. Unfortunately the most informative section (and I have a few of the tidbits already in the article), Domestication_of_the_horse#Horses_interred_in_human_graves, is tagged as unsourced... Drmies (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Added Equine navbox template to your article. I know, we do. WPEQ has been a magnet for a lot of odd people, we had an edit war over where and whether to use the navbox, if the navbox we have is the "right" navbox, and OMG, well see Category:Horse templates, I have a horse tack navbox that has yet to see the light of day due to this garbage. Advice? Montanabw^(talk) 18:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Holy moly, that's a lot of templates. Thanks for adding the template to the article and vice versa! Drmies (talk) 19:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

These days, when a hook gets approved, it tends to get promoted very quickly. I was adding an alt and got an edit conflict as the hook was promoted, so I substituted my version in Prep 4, explaining at WT:DYK#Horse burials. Please see what you think of it, and tweak it or restore your original as desired. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 22:20, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that speed with which they're passed on, yes. Thanks for the tweak; I appreciate it. Now for a rewrite of the entire article, giving it proper context and scope, and a decent organization that incorporates the practice in all cultures... Drmies (talk) 22:24, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

200 DYK

		The 200 DYK Creation and Expansion Medal
		"It gives me great pleasure to garland you with this award. Many congratulations are in order." You have shared your interests in a rich variety of topics, passing wisdom in a children's book, Frog and the Birdsong, to name just one. You are an awesome Wikipedian, did you know (20 Febuary)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

4 users like this. Well done!--kelapstick^(bainuu) 06:19, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

WOW .. Very impressive!!! Congrats. — Ched :  ?  08:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Thirded! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• COngratulations! LadyofShalott 14:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

And they are high quality too!PumpkinSky talk 09:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you all for your nice words. And it's a team effort: all of you, at one time or another, have helped me out in many areas including DYKs, for which I thank you. Drmies (talk) 13:45, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Wise again! Let's celebrate, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

... today! extra precious with a Bach cantata translatable to "An open mind" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Simple notification

I quoted you at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/My76Strat 3, and just wanted to bring that to your attention. Nothing bad, but felt I should notify. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:20, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• I appreciate it, Dennis. Thanks also for bringing the RfA to my attention...I can't support him. Did you see this diff], asked about on the RfA by Kim Dent-Brown? Incomprehensible. Drmies (talk) 19:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/SwisterTwister

Sorry about hitting you with rollback there, I made a misclick while checking my watchlist. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:53, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• No worries--thanks for letting me know. Drmies (talk) 19:57, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Hopefully ...

Mrs. Drmies won't approach from behind and have trouble distinguishing between the vast array of "tushes" available to pinch. That could get quite embarrassing indeed. :-) Chedzilla (talk) 22:35, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Then again - considering the long scaly tail attached to my own, I guess I don't need to worry for myself. Chedzilla (talk) 22:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

We've been married for so long that there is no risk of pinching. That mom at the dentist office this morning, though, that's a different matter. Drmies (talk) 23:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Lionel Richie vandalism

Drmies, can you take a quick look at Lionel Richie please - an IP has been continuously vandalising it for the past half-hour. Thanks for your time. INeverCry 00:46, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks. Sorry no one else seems to have been on call. Drmies (talk) 00:52, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks for taking care of this. INeverCry 00:55, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Declined CSD, socking

Hey Drmies, I saw you (rightly) declined the SD request for Jewish control of Hollywood. Take a look though, if you would, at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Prachursharma. LadyofShalott 00:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• I cleaned up the refs a bit, the NY times cite was just a blog post referring to the LA times article, etc. It would seem that better sourcing would exist. One of the three sources fail WP:RS soundly, and the other is a bit primary. Obviously not CSD material however, or even AFD material. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Any thoughts on the socking? LadyofShalott 01:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• I do have an opinion, yes, and I acted on it. Thanks. The style (citations, See also, etc.) was a giveaway. Drmies (talk) 01:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• No, thank you! I have a feeling that sock drawer will be making itself visible again soon. Someone obviously wants to play games with us. Did you happen upon Katva yet? LadyofShalott 01:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, I did. Etc.! Drmies (talk) 02:09, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• I've added a request for CU and endorsed it at SPI. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oh forgot to add, Lady, I'm almost at #2200...trying to work up to the top 2000. Not nearly as impressive as your feat, but you have to start somewhere ;) Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• You can shoot for 1825--the number of pages I have deleted, according to some thingy on my user page. Drmies (talk) 02:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• I've deleted 6 pages. I'm still on quadruple secret CSD probation from my RfA, because my CSD tagging was a wart on the ass of Wikipedia. I bet I'm the only admin to ever get the bit based on a promise to seek mentoring, ha! :) And yes, I'm 100% fulfilling that promise, each week. One more month to go before I'm allowed to walk to halls of CSD without adult supervision. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 02:32, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• There's a log of how many pages we've deleted? I'm probably close to 50 already. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:45, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Pussy. You've been an admin for over a week, haven't you? If you don't make the quota, a clown will eat you. Look on my user page--I don't know how it got there (fo shizzle), but there's a table with stats. I don't know how regularly they're updated either. Always good to see you, Crisco. I thought of you last week, walking by the KIT. Drmies (talk) 04:52, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
• Crisco, put this on your user page {{adminstats|Crisco 1492}} and you can view all your basic stats. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks both. Gosh, wish I could do some research at KIT... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:32, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• You walking around anywhere without adult supervision is scary. Thanks for the nightmares tonight. Bgwhite (talk) 05:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Drmies support vote was one of the cheaper ones at $20, blame him. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 14:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Dennis, you have the email for my PayPal account. The money is still not there. Drmies (talk) 00:23, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

About user Depak

The worst user I ever seen. Delete his whole account and its associated information(i.e. Depak_Muniraj, User:Depakmuniraj], User_talk:Depakmuniraj, Talk:Depak_Muniraj. It is all nominated for afd. Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Depakmuniraj Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Depak_Muniraj. Please use your administrative power to delete this useless fellows documents immediately.Depakmuniraj (talk) 03:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• You're overreacting. The person Depak Muniraj is simply not notable, and to have a user page that looks exactly like an article is against the rules. You wanted to help, earlier on, with those Articles for Creation edits--that's great. If you look at the link I pointed out to you, and read the stuff and install that script, that's a useful thing you can do. No, this guy is far from the worst user I've ever seen. Drmies (talk) 03:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• I think Depakmuniraj requested the article to be deleted with this edit. Not sure if that is enough for an outright deletion. An IP editor tried to put a creating editor requests a speedy delete, but forgot to add an extra }. If that was you Depakmuniraj, you need to do that as you as your account created the article.Bgwhite (talk) 05:30, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

A recent edit of yours on ANI

Howdy. I was reading WP:ANI and in this section it appears to me that you are dismissing Jorgath's opinion just because he isn't an admin. Is this actually the case or am I misinterpreting what you typed?--Rockfang (talk) 09:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Your responses to him here also seem a bit interesting. To me, it appears Jorgath was just trying to help out.--Rockfang (talk) 09:09, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, you did misread that. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 13:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Ahmad Assa Nurcahya

Precedent (I know you enjoy it!) of identical articles, created by same editor, all being deleted as A7 - Muhammad Rifki, Khairul Iqbal Hasbala, Asman Akman, Ali Tallouk, Andro Levandy, Saddam Husain...GiantSnowman 09:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• I left a few of them, like Ahmad Assa Nurcahya, because the infobox could be claimed to make a claim (yes, wordy) of importance--that the player had played for a notable team in a notable league. The PROD process would take care of it, and if not, AfD is still there. I think there was maybe one more: if you look, you'll see that the dozen or so I deleted did not have such possibly inferred notability in the infobox. I do in fact enjoy precedent, and one memory I have is of DGG explaining to someone else (I think!) that the information in an infobox can be seen as a claim to importance; whether it's a believable claim is another matter, but in this side I preferred to err on the side of caution. As you know, we don't nearly have enough articles on football players. Ahem. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 13:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for explaining - however playing for a notable team in a notable league does not give notability per NFOOTBALL i.e. playing for Gornal Athletic F.C. in the Midland Football Alliance - it's a low-level, local, amateur team. GiantSnowman 14:13, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Right, but in my amateur opinion (and you know I know too little about these things to be called an expert) there is at least a somewhat believable claim of importance. So, spare me a moment: have Miftakul Huda and Ahmad Assa Nurcahya played for clubs that would make them possibly notable? Drmies (talk) 14:22, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• From what I can see, no. GiantSnowman 14:32, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Well then. Drmies (talk) 17:45, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Merci! GiantSnowman 17:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Janjua

Talk:Janjua has been receiving attention from a hostile dynamic IP over the last few hours. since you appear to be around and I am getting tired of hitting rollback, can you intervene? - Sitush (talk) 13:52, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• The one is now blocked (the one with a mouth full of pig and shit--no warnings necessary for something like that). The other, IP 129.94.etc, has reverted the one--their last contribution, while a bit of a rant, does not strike me as pure trolling, despite the warning you gave them on 8 May. Drmies (talk) 14:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Indeed. It was the 49.* who has been causing the difficulties. I am not unduly fussed about the 129.*, who is merely WP:IDHT. - Sitush (talk) 14:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Right. Well, you just beat me to reverting 129, whom I've just given a warning, just in case. As with so many of those articles, editors' improvement will probably follow content improvement--it sucks to have to restore something with so many tags and half-references. Good luck Sitush. Drmies (talk) 14:17, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
      • I need someone to invent the 25 hour day + a means of never needing to sleep. Otherwise, development of many of these articles seems unlikely at present. It is time-consuming enough just keeping things steady. Hopefully, Fowler&fowler will come back into this subject area at some point: they have good academic access & between us we can blast through fixing sources, removing POV etc. Until then, I have some rather more pressing BLP issues to handle! - Sitush (talk) 14:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
        • Don't worry Sitush, I'll straighten them lazy bones out with a stern warning. Drmies (talk) 15:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Message

Hello. You have a new message at Anna Frodesiak's talk page. 14:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Possible puppet

Hi!
I am guessing the User:Fineuser that you blocked today for disruptive editing is back with another name User talk: I.am.the.best0. Just FYI. §§AnimeshKulkarni (talk) 15:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Right on. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 15:32, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

UEFA Euro 2012

Hi there MIES, VASCO "here",

please have a look at my message to Snowman to see what i cared about today's game, getting sicker by the day of Ronaldo and his hairdo (halftime) changes, not to mention butcher Pepe, etc etc. It's oh so quiet in my little city without the horns of the cars showing some only find one reason to be happy in this life, so quiet...

Must be i'm (as Ronaldo once said it, his words not mine) jealous of him because he's RICH and HANDSOME and a GREAT PLAYER, pathetic. And did you known how my country's imbecile news "reporters" from SIC opened their "services" yesterday? "Hugo Almeida is starting tomorrow", most important news of the planet for these people!

Thank you Spain, i did not root for you (national teams are also a CLUB, with the emblem of the country stuck on a shirt, period), but thank you indeed. Cheers, my friend - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:00, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Hey, I read those comments by him and was disgusted by them, but I didn't want to insult you. He had a couple of chances and he is a great player. I didn't notice the hairdo this time, though I remember now that this was mentioned before. I posted on Pepe on Facebook, calling him a beastman. Well, like the team or not, at least they got some points, and they played their soccer a lot better than my countrymen (and I'm sure you know the coach quit today). See you later VASCO, and hang in there. Consider looking for a job in NL: are you good at carpentry? ;) Drmies (talk) 23:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

• Additions to original message: "it's oh so quiet in my town and...IT FEELS GREAT!". Second, first sentence reply: Ronaldo does not represent me at least and the least (same can't be said about the fans - some of them 50 years old! - who idolize him), if you give him a piece of your mind wikiwise or "whateverwise" you won't belittle me THE LEAST, fact is i encourage you :)

Pepe now even takes on teammates (i did not see the game in its entirety, only (bits of) the first half, but have just read he had a criminal tackle on Xabi Alonso). Now for WP and its vast array of "users": someone wrote PUSSY in Álvaro Negredo's infobox TWICE, a quiet obscure player if you have one in the national team...guess from which country was the edit made? PORTUGAL (sore losers!)!

Last but not least: am unemployed for SIX YEARS, and things aren't looking good man, now boredom and apathy has really sunk in, WP is pretty much my only hobby, i used to be a (very poor i think) poet.

Kind regards my mate, all the best always! --Vasco Amaral (talk) 00:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• I know, Vasco--I've been thinking about you while I was overseas. Wish I could help one way or another. Have you considered welding? Drmies (talk) 00:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• Pepe-esque moments: have a look at this disgusting stuff, RM were trailing 0-1 at Levante UD this season (unfortunately they won the title), Xavi Torres stood in the way to prevent a fast-break, what did this "great stopper" do? See here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPd285BQvbE), eight seconds to scar you for life ;) --Vasco Amaral (talk) 00:17, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Horse burial

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your point. Thanks for checking. --Dingruogu (talk) 03:15, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• I can't seem to break the 4000 views barrier... Drmies (talk) 12:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Bhaskarmv

Wouldn't this work: {{sockpuppeteer|blocked|}}? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:59, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

• Yes--thanks. I don't know why I didn't see that one in the various categories I perused but, in my defense, there's a ton of em and it's been a while since I placed one of these. Do you know how to turn Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Bhaskarmv blue? I could probably find out and learn, but you're faster, I'm sure! Drmies (talk) 18:06, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

You're most welcome. I blued the cat. Happy to help. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:59, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Haha, a blue cat. Mrow! Drmies (talk) 00:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Not a bad name for a Moroccan nightclub. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Justin Bieber

Hi. You know I dislike Tony having created all those Twitter articles as much if not more than you right? I supported one for deletion, and the only reason I commented on Kutcher was because I thought it was just over the line? I dislike the Obama article because that really SHOULD be merged into his election campaign article efforts and I would support such a merge. He also introduced the template for it, which has limited use as I realistically can't see more than say five articles about the subject qualifying and the screenshots are not what I would qualify as fair use in a Wikipedia context? (There are other images for these people. People don't access people's tweets from the person's Twitter page and most of the discussion about a person on Twitter has ZERO to do with with topic? My impression is Tony is not that familiar with the topic and isn't much interested in learning, but rather in trying to push boundaries. His instances on PICTURE PICTURE PICTURE are about at the point where I would love to ban him from nominating DYKs with pictures because it gets borderline disruptive and makes things take a lot, lot, lot longer.) I've no intention of writing more about Bieber beyond the two articles I worked on already. I don't want to create any additional Twitter articles. If you're thinking I want to create large scale articles about popular culture or Twitter, you're thinking wrong. I cannot behind to explain how I have ZERO intention of creating any more articles like those. Some one on DYK suggested people write not what the writer is interested in but in what people are interested in. With 20+ million followers on Twitter and extensive media coverage, that was my answer to such stupidity as suggesting I write for others. Recycle, repeat, rinse: I will not be writing more Bieber or Twitter articles. --LauraHale (talk) 02:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

While I'm on it, http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/webreflinks.py <-- Have a talk with the person maintaining that and give them your thoughts on how to improve the sourcing. That is what is causing those minor hiccups with titles. --LauraHale (talk) 02:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Laura, I'm not familiar with that toolserver link. I use the regular citation help which I think is a function of Twinkle. Selecting "cite news" instead of "cite web" automatically leads to more correct referencing, but often titles have to be fixed by hand (often the name of the publication needs to be removed by hand from the title). But no matter how it is done, it needs to be done correctly, especially if it's to be on the front page. I'm just pissed that I spent more time on that particular article than any of the reviewers, and that when I was halfway through it was promoted. I think it should have been much cleaner when it was proposed, and I think the reviewer should have done a much better job with my comments. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 02:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
• As for Twitter, i read somewhere that you're writing a dissertation on this kind of stuff, so you can't hate it that much. You know my opinion: I think these articles shouldn't exist in the first place, and I've gotten a bit tired of hearing that this is because I don't "like" Twitter or Bieber, whatever that means (Bieber is as important to me as cassava chips: both exist, I don't care for them, and I have no opinion on the matter).

  I am not really interested in what Tony is trying to do with those articles. There are a lot of DYK volunteers who don't seem to care about anything one way or another and simply pass stuff on. His insistence on some picture or other, I saw that somewhere, but I didn't understand what the problem was or what he wanted, and I don't really care. That Twitter stuff is going in the DYK section, I have no doubt about it, no matter what I do.

  What is clear is that Tony is a trophy hunter, that's no secret, and that's also something I can't do anything about. Some of his stuff is decent, most of it I haven't seen, some he guards obsessively (like young, hot YouTube personalities), and some of it is atrocious and carelessly edited. No one at DYK cares. Oh, about Obama, a reason was provided here on my talk page; it had to do with transclusion of templates. While I think that that problem is legitimate, I don't think that it is a valid argument for a standalone BO on Twitter article. But the cat's out of the bag and we'll see more and more of those X on Twitter articles. Thank you for your visit here, Drmies (talk) 02:54, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

For your copy edit to the Ashleigh Brennan‎ article. Thanks for the editing assist. :)

LauraHale (talk) 03:05, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Your name

So, I've (obviously) seen you around for a long time, but never figured out how to say your name. I've always said it like Der-mees. Is that correct or is it Doctor mees or some variation thereof? Ryan Vesey Review me! 03:28, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• It's the latter, though I like the German ring of your suggestion. See Ie (digraph), pronunciation /i/. Drmies (talk) 03:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
  • It's insane that in my head I mispronounced your name for so long. Well good evening Doctor. I'm sure you'll become Doctor der-mees in my mind. Ryan Vesey Review me! 03:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Thanks for your improvements to Herbert Greene (Broadway conductor) by the way. It's a shame that more information wasn't readily available. Ryan Vesey Review me! 03:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
      • Yep, and again, thank you for helping out a new editor. Drmies (talk) 03:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
  • I tend to think of your name as having a "German ring" to it too, but not the "Der" part – the "Mies" part. Although I'm not aware of you having any particular interest in architecture, I'm always reminded of Mies van der Rohe. Hmmmmm, I've never been to his page before; I thought "Mies" was his first name....

    Oh, and Ryan, you're not alone. See Question 5. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 10:19, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• (TPS) You will, no doubt, be thrilled to know that I had considered changing my own user name, in homage to your good self, to the Welsh "Meddyg Llygoden" - the nearest I could get literally to "Doctor Mice"'. (mental picture of an eccentric Teutonic character, complete with Einstein hair, white lab coat and electrodes, surrounded by cages of oblivious white mice.) I think this says much more about my own precarious mental state, than it does about your intriguing choice of user name. Wikipedia has a lot to asnwer for. Oh well. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Hmmm I don't know if I should be flattered--I guess so! Well, as I tell my children, "do as I say, not as I do". My username is pretty cool (though it's hardly Kiefer Wolfowitz or Wizardman), but don't you all go around being a jerk like me, or I'll have to block you for incivility. Mandarax, I knew you'd bring that up, and I still can't believe no one asked a real hard question. Look at recent RfAs: those editors were actually put to work. I didn't even get asked the difference between a block and a ban... Drmies (talk) 12:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry to have been so predictable. Yes, you do have a cool username; the mies stands for metastable impact electron spectroscopy, right? MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 09:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• How did you know?? Hey Mandarax, are you ready for the Tour? It will be exciting! Drmies (talk) 12:43, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, you've formed a band and you're going on tour! Your daughter will appreciate that you're playing your loud music elsewhere. Justin has his Beliebers; you could have your Darmies of followers (both of your music and Wiki contributions). So, in other words, I have no idea what the Tour is.... MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 21:07, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Mandarax, you're a cultural vandal. The Tour de France. Come on now. Drmies (talk) 21:09, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I thought you meant the race would be exciting. Turns out the real excitement is all the flag-waving on the article's talk page.

  BTW, I think I've been permanently scarred; every time I come to your talk page and see the kitten in the thread immediately above, I picture it turned into a helicopter. And now that I bring it up again, a horrible thought has occurred to me. I don't think it's a case of someone whose cat died and they decided to honor it in the sickest way possible by turning it into an "artwork". I suspect that the cat was acquired specifically for this purpose. My hypothesis is fueled by the suspicious naming of the cat: "Orville" is a name forever intimately connected to flight. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 00:31, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I do hope you have that wrong. I hope that the name and the way of "honoring" <cough, cough> the cat were both inspired by Orville Wright, but that the order was as he claims. It's sick enough that way; your suggested order is downright psychotic. :( Now I want to go love on my kitty. LadyofShalott 02:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• "I wish I could fly, Right up to the sky, But I can't." Martinevans123 (talk) 09:47, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Mandarax, that's why we have you on payroll--for the smart stuff. Lady, don't give me such thoughts. BTW, y'all, the pool is finally starting to look better, and the AC upstairs got fixed: we can move back up to the bedrooms after sleeping in the living room for four nights. Oh, yuk, I have to go to work. Drmies (talk) 14:25, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

ANI

Hi -- let me give you a pointer to WP:ANI#Received email boasting "We wrote the article on Wikipedia", since I have mentioned your name there (because you interacted with the editor in question). Regards, Looie496 (talk) 21:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

RPP

What I saw from popup diff was the removal of the first poster's comments, which were valid. When reverting IPs, I only check the diff unless it is "truncated for performance reasons". Do not pretend that I don't know about soapboxing and forum-ing, which happen to be listed under WP:TPO. GotR ^Talk 17:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

What is your problem? I'm not pretending anything. You should do a much better job of checking edits, whether they're from IPs or not. The "first poster's comments" were "And anyway those Chinese bastards sitting in Beijing should be happy with what they have got, they are already bloddy twice the size of India, yet they fell they should have the right to steal Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh." Now, find me someone besides you who thinks those comments are valid. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Your pretentiousness of my ignorance at the RPP is the problem. And now you are pretending that I think that the quote you provide here is a valid comment. No, I was referring to "This article doesn't explain particularly well..." GotR ^Talk 17:56, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, the problem is you. Your report was bogus, and the talk page comment you restored was invalid. Drmies (talk) 18:08, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Questions

I was wondering if messages with biased, blasphemous, or vulgar languages can be tolerated on Wikipedian talk pages. It seems that a user by the name of Guerilla of the Renmin disruptively reverts my edits to delete innapropriate and highly biased opinions with political insults. 76.126.227.27 (talk) 19:41, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• Well, you're dealing with a somewhat overzealous editor who didn't look carefully at what was removed by IP editors. It happens all the time. Unfortunately for them, they asked for protection of the talk page to prevent such removal--a mistake, but not a big deal. In the meantime, I removed that content and archived part of that talk page, and have taken the matter up with the editor, who is not happy with my intervention, of course. But for next time, have a look at WP:TPO, "Removing harmful posts". That guideline is obviously NOT a license to remove anything one doesn't like, but in this case it's warranted.

  BTW, I see now what happened in this series of edits: part of what was removed (by you, and by me--erroneously) was a comment by another editor, which was subsequently restored by User:Lihaas, perfectly justifiably. Please leave that comment by User:Nil Einne stand. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 20:02, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Concerning the report I've been target of at ANI....

Hi,

I was saddened to learn that I've been target of an ANI discussion which's been closed so fast that I didn't get to react to it (the last time before I've checked things on WP were before I went to watch an evening move, and when I came back the discussion was already WAY in progress). I'd like to reiterate on the fact that a banned Wikipedia editor's harassing me. For a while it was fun, but now it's starting to be much more annoying. And it's this editor who I've called a nationalist troll, because his only actions on WP consist of removing Hungarian place names from various articles (or replacing them with non-Hungarian names) AND harassing me. I've been harassed by him first via talk page posts ([1], [2] and [3]), then he went on to create a sock with the sole purpose of my harassment (User:CoolKoon jebe svoji matku=CoolKoon's fucking his mother).
As for you comment I haven't been impersonated by anyone, just keep having this problem with the user mentioned above. Is there anything you could suggest about this? -- CoolKoon (talk) 22:27, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

CoolKoon also posted at my Talk page, and I gave him my opinion - FWIW.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:40, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

CoolKoon, I'm not sure what you mean with your next-to-last sentence, but I thought I made it clear you had been harassed by an impersonator. Anyway, I agree with what Bbb said: fighting fire with fire is not the way. Remember, often it's not the guy that kicks that gets the yellow or red card, it's the guy who gets kicked and then kicks back. Now, for that editor who keeps harassing you: there is an SPI on him; just add to it, and report such harassment to AIV or ANI. That's an imperfect way of dealing with it, but it's the best we can do. Drmies (talk) 01:14, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, submitting an SPI has crossed my mind too, but when I've made my very first entry on Bizovne's list of alleged sockpuppets, I was blown off by one of the CUs with a statement that "we're not allowed to link IPs to accounts", so in case of these IP socks I might not get much out of an SPI. I might try in the morning though. -- CoolKoon (talk) 01:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, IPs can't be tied to an account, that's just the way it is. There are other ways to catch them--see WP:DUCK, on editing behavior. But usually IPs are operated to do the vile stuff, which is often enough blockable easily enough. For SPI, I was thinking about the impersonating account. Such accounts get blocked quick, of course, but they add to the evidence that a CU can use next time. So it's not a bad idea to add such accounts to an SPI anyway, or even list the IPs, since that makes it easier for future investigations to study behavioral patterns. Does that make sense? Drmies (talk) 01:39, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've added a new entry to Bizovne's already fairly lengthy list, kept my fingers crossed and it seems that his default IP has been blocked again. Unfortunately this doesn't deal away with any meatpuppets Bizovne might have at hand, but it's still better than nothing. Thanks for the advice. -- CoolKoon (talk) 14:55, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Justin Bieber on Twitter for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Justin Bieber on Twitter is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Justin Bieber on Twitter until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.

Informing you of this nomination because of your previous participation in the Justin Bieber on Twitter merge into Justin Bieber discussion.--LauraHale (talk) 06:43, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you Laura, that's fair of you. Drmies (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
  • This article is under reassessment as Good Article. Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Justin Bieber on Twitter/1 does not allow votes, but opinions are welcome. --George Ho (talk) 08:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

2012 Tour de France

Hi Drmies, You have started a discussion on the 2012 Tour de France talk page. I have asked you some questions there, to understand your point of view, but I don't know if you have noticed them. Are you planning to return to this discussion? --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 21:22, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you for your note. Answered there--and also addressed the false 3RR charge. Drmies (talk) 21:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Verifiability RfC request

Hi Drmies. Very sorry for making a random request like this, but I saw that you were online, and I was wondering if you could take a look at the edit protected request at the top of Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/2012 RfC. It should only take a few seconds to make the edit, but I need an admin to do it. Would you mind doing the honours? :) Best — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 21:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• No apology necessary; not random at all. I'm kind of dense: please check quickly to make sure I got it right. Drmies (talk) 22:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

  Thank you! Just one thing - could you swap the {{rfc}} template and the message box around? I want the rfc template to be at the very top, and the notice to be second. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 22:11, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Sure thing. I wasn't sure--the edit request said at the top, but switching it is not a problem. Check me again, please. Drmies (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Ah, yes, that could probably have been better worded. Thanks for fixing it. — Mr. Stradivarius on tour ^{(have a chat)} 22:54, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Important

Hello, Drmies. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

• That's very exciting! Is it from Nigeria? I'll be glad to move your father-in-law's $25 million into the country! Drmies (talk) 22:30, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
  • I have sent the forms. All I need is for you to send some good faith collateral, and you will get your share upon transfer! Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:34, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Sounds good. Hey, I have no opinion on the matter since I am not familiar enough with our supposed contact in Lagos, and I put my faith in SG who is more capable than me to handle this matter. Maybe drop them a line--sorry I'm of no help here. Drmies (talk) 22:47, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
      • Thank you anyway. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:49, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
        • Sorry--I've never run into that particular agent before, as far as I know, at least not to any meaningful level. That it's an improper way of doing business, I am in absolute agreement, but I am not so sure how to put the person out of business. Drmies (talk) 22:56, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
          • Say hello to my little friend... Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:18, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
            • Haha, you can't do that on stage anymore. Drmies (talk) 14:27, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Chelonoidis nigra abingdonii

Hey doctor dermees :) you declined semi-protection on the article as a result of the content dispute; however, it could indisputably be said that talk page consensus has been reached that the article cannot label the tortoise extinct and source it to the IUNC. Can you reconsider, due to edits like this one? The rate has slowed down, but it is still disruptive. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• I don't like, it, but OK. Here's the quid pro quo--warn the IP on their talk page, and find the user warning template for "disruptive editing", level 3 perhaps. Drmies (talk) 21:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you for fixing that/will do. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:49, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• Tbhotch beat me to it. Ryan Vesey Review me! 21:53, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for participating in my RFA! I appreciate your support. Zagalejo^^^ 06:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Talk back

Hello, Drmies. You have new messages at WP:AN/I#Move request at Syrian_uprising_(2011–present).
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Dpmuk (talk) 09:01, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Open Forum: thank you and one clarification

Regarding your response below:

I am happy to try to work on the article with my own user (not anonymous) - is there an alternative course of action to follow in this case, or still through WP:AFC?

Thank you once again for your help!

best,

Diana

---

Hello,

I collaborated with a friend on the article on the Open Forum for CSO Development Effectiveness - it is now deleted with code G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion, although the entry provided external references. Would it be possible to get some more infomation on how the article can be improved for Wikipedia?

many thanks and best, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diana hrdev (talk • contribs) 15:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

---

response: There were a few issues with it. One was the promotional nature of the claims about the forum, the other was the essay-like nature of the article, which treated a bunch of things but not the particular forum. I suggest you try submitting it to WP:AFC. Good luck, Drmies (talk) 23:06, 25 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Diana hrdev (talk • contribs)

• Diana, you can do it however you like it. I suggested AfC because it will give you a greater chance of success (that is, non-deletion). Thank you, and good luck, Drmies (talk) 17:01, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Second opinion

Can you give me your opinion of User:Leoboudv's user page? I told Leo (not sure if that's his first name) I would seek "guidance" on the issue ([4]). So, tag, you're it. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry I didn't see this earlier: my goggles were clogged up with other stuff. I guess I wouldn't do anything. I think it's tasteless soapboxing, but that's par for the course in Palestine vs. Israel etc. I don't see any BLP violations (correct me if I'm wrong), and the bookburning-Hitler thing--well, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, and Godwin is the last refuge of everybody else. I'm going to throw in the towel for the day, and hope that MF isn't blocked again by close of business. I'm a bit revolted by Wikipedia; all those whiners at ANI should consider that making the atmosphere unsavory to work in also means that their requests at AIV, UAA, RFPP etc will have to wait, since I couldn't give a damn right now (I spent a fair amount time at all of those boards today and yesterday). Happy 4th, Bbb! If you need me, I'll be in the parade, or grilling beer-lime juice-braised hot dogs. Drmies (talk) 16:15, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• The only potential BLP violation is the reference to Ahmed Osman. The other guy mentioned is dead. As potential BLP violations go, it ain't much, though. I'll let it go, which is the way I was leaning anyway. Thanks. As for MF, god knows what will happen at Arbcom, but at least the ANI discussion is closed (until the next time, of course). Don't waste your time being "revolted by Wikipedia". It's pretty much same old, and you usually take it in stride. Enjoy the rest of your 4th - looks like it's still pretty hot down there.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:41, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Re: Beer

Drmies, thank you kindly for the award; I'm really not much of a drinker, but will take anything refreshing in this weather.

And I appreciate your intervention at ANI. I know Dahn has gotten the same sort of bureaucratic reply after reporting various problem users, dismissive comments like "WP:SPI is that way". To be sure, we have various boards for various sorts of complaints, and it wouldn't do to have everything clog just one venue, but I do think WP:IAR (too often forgotten) should sometimes trump the labyrinth of policies if it means getting things done more efficiently.

I hope your exploration of Müller is going well. Have you perhaps had a chance to look into writers who wrote in Romanian, like Mihail Sadoveanu, Liviu Rebreanu, Ioan Slavici or Camil Petrescu? What is rather disappointing is that each country in Eastern Europe has a fine literary tradition, but not only are their writers largely unknown in the West (with several narrow exceptions: Kundera, Lem, Prus, Miłosz, Sienkiewicz, Kadare, Andrić, Kertész, but not much more), they are unknown to one another. An educated Romanian who might be quite familiar with his own literary heritage is probably unable to name a single Serbian or Bulgarian writer. As for how many of these works get translated into English or into Dutch, I could not say. - Biruitorul ^Talk 18:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• The problem was that I couldn't do much. It is very much possible that they're all the same person, of course--I've looked at all the edits and the times, and if I'd see a bit more overlap, if Caragiale had edited Ioan Mang, for instance, or if Sciencecopy had edited Mirceau Beuran, then there'd be DUCKY evidence enough. If I were a CU I wouldn't hesitate--but I'll tell you what, I'll start the SPI. I'll get back to you on the books, but I appreciate the shortlist (I read Kundera, of course, when it was fashionable to do so), and Muller is on a syllabus I'm teaching in the spring. Drmies (talk) 20:10, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
• See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Caragiale2012. SPI is busy these days, so we'll just have to keep our eyes on the articles until an answer comes. Feel free to let me know (on my talk page) if anything happens. Oh, I forgot to mention that Travels with Herodotus is also on that list, and right now I'm reading a (fairly) new translation of Cosmos, which is of course a frighteningly good book--and last night, when I started on it (I'd read an older translation years ago), I realized that Zakopane, where the action is set, is the only Polish city I've ever visited. I wish I'd realized that at the time, I'd have been looking for dead sparrows. Thanks, and keep cool, Drmies (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Jamie Comstock

You have edited this article - would you do me a favour? Read User talk:JohnCD#BLP help, look at the article history and then my reply at User talk:Academicjc#Reply to your message on my talk page and add any advice you think will be helpful? A classic case of WP:LUC, I'm afraid. Thanks, JohnCD (talk) 20:42, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• Of course! Can I read the article first? Drmies (talk) 21:19, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
• Oh yes. I remember. That was fun. And the DSC editor isn't blocked yet for promoting someone? Drmies (talk) 21:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
• Well. That article needs serious work, again. Drmies (talk) 21:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

uw-uhimpersonation vs. uw-ublock-famous

In your block notification on User talk:HildegardPuwak you used {{uw-uhimpersonation}} ("because it appears to impersonate another Wikipedia user"), but the appropriate template in this case is {{uw-ublock-famous}} ("because the username matches the name of a well-known, living person"), as implicitly noted in the remark added by Peter E. James.  --Lambiam 22:22, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the note; I thanked Peter James on that talk page. Drmies (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Are Amazon and iTunes links spam

Should I remove links/warn users to Amazon and iTunes music downloads such as this one diff Thanks Jim1138 (talk) 04:38, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• It depends. If it's there to verify a release date or a label's number, it's OK--but this was not. That also goes for the iTunes links, as far as I'm concerned. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
• Jim, see below. I'm not going to respond further there; I have better things to do. Thanks for your note, and keep fighting the good fight, Drmies (talk) 04:59, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Linking to digital download page

Amazon.com, iTunes, etc. is not spam otherwise all articles are posting spam links if you look at the link you can see it is not spam. It is infact a source. iTunes looks no different as you would see if you were to look at Can't Fight the Moonlight and this link they are no different. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is in play here and I will not stand by it. Swifty*^talk 04:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• Ahem. Sorry, but this is complete bullshit, and invoking "IDONTLIKEIT" is even bigger bullshit (you should see the charges I have placed on my Amazon account). I hope you didn't revert; if you do, you might find yourself accused of spamming. Also, I don't care for your high-falutin' "I will not stand by it". Drmies (talk) 04:51, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out Stronger (What Doesn't Kill You). It is a GA and according to you and Jim1138 this article should not be GA as it post spam links to cite the product they are talking about also would like to point out Mean (song), Back to December, Mine (song), Sparks Fly (song), etc all these GA with supposed spam links. Hmmm... Swifty*^talk 04:54, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm whatever. First of all, that some article has it, even if it's a GA, doesn't mean it's always right. In that article, those links are used to verify release dates, it seems to me--as I pointed out above to the person whom you reverted. "Digital download" followed by an Amazon link isn't verification, it's spam. Drmies (talk) 04:58, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Nope actually it is not as I have pointed out they are all the same. No different. It points out that there is a digital download and Sourcing to the Amazon link verifies it I cannot sell the product that way. But the funny thing is this is the first I am hearing of Amazon.com being spam and as I said what is its difference from iTunes? Swifty*^talk 05:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay now here is the real probably all the sources on the page are Amazon.com and iTunes it's not spamming it's double sourcing. Swifty*^talk 05:14, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• I'm curious as to under what policy you are looking under Drmies when you say that added a source to show something exists is spam. Please enlighten us all, we'd love to know. Statυs (talk) 06:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• Status, no one asked you to come here and drip sarcasm all over the place. Play nice or play somewhere else. Drmies (talk) 12:26, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
• It is spam and also an unreliable reference. The information on Amazon and iTunes comes from the person or company. Amazon and iTunes do no fact checking... some of the information authors put about them and their e-books are sometime hilarious. As it is a primary source, it is not allowed under Wikipedia:Verifiability. Primary reference to be avoided at all costs. Almost any information that could be used, such as release date or songs on an album, can be found via reliable, independent references. As for spam, look at a search for "amazon" at WikiProject Spam. Also, during 2007-2008, link searches were done to try to remove some of the spam and Amazon was on the list. It has been discussed before. Saying it is available for digital download with the link to amazon is not referencing anything. It is just trying to sell. Saying it is available for digital download isn't even encyclopedic and shouldn't be mentioned as 99% of all music is available via download. The article is about the music not how and where to buy it. Bgwhite (talk) 07:01, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

That is bull! This is soooooooooooo WP:IDONTLIKEIT! Get off it! That is nothing but crap! Swifty*^talk 07:20, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Can you please link me to where it is stated that use of such sites is spam? That is what I was referring to. What you provided me is links to show that Amazon has been questioned as a reliable source. I don't see a guideline that states that Amazon or iTunes are considered to be unreliable sources on Wikipedia and should not be used. They are common resources for editors of music articles to verify release dates. If they were spam, why does the spam notification not come up when a user tries to use it? It seems as if you are trying to enforce polices that do not exist. Statυs (talk) 07:28, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• If it is verifying a release date it is not spam. It is verifying basic information. However, if a reliable reference is available, then use that one. In the Cranberries' article, the Amazon link was never removed from verifying the release date. It was removed from saying it is available as a digital download, which is spam. In the links I provided they say the same thing. Bgwhite (talk) 07:41, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you Bg. This whole "context" thing seems to be a difficult concept. I've used Amazon links myself (Kronos Quartet discography), but they should always verify something specific, and they ought to be a last resort--that strikes me as common sense, no? Drmies (talk) 12:26, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• Argh. It spilled over to my talk page, ANI 3RR and more fun. I guess you can't celebrate the 4th without some fireworks. As the visibility conditions are down to about 10 miles due to the fires, unfortunately Wikipedia is the only place I will probably see some fireworks. Bgwhite (talk) 19:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Now I sort of understand what you are referring to. May I suggest in the future when removing such links from a specific place (even if wrong, which I think it is), you explain why it is like that? The edit summaries were quite vague. Statυs (talk) 20:32, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Consider writing some articles maybe?

That'll be the day. --John (talk) 15:38, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

In fairness, there are these new ones from some point in the past. - Sitush (talk) 15:47, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure--and there's this and this and this and this, just to point the finger at present company. Drmies (talk) 15:56, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• Well. There's more than one. I'm really quite sick of it. But hey, I'm 'invooolved'. So the discussion was reopened, and now we can start all over again, and on and on. And all the MF haters can come out and have yet another excuse to not do anything useful. "Oh, he's making it impossible to work around here!" Only for editors who don't work in the first place. (Remind me to tell you the joke about the guy who claims to be a bearhunter.) I know some editors who are verifiably complete and utter assholes, and that doesn't stop me from doing some odd jobs here and there. I just don't go look them up. Thanks John. BTW, it was an exciting finish in the Tour just now. Also BTW, Handke--interesting. Can you give me one title I should definitely read? (Preferably not drama.) Drmies (talk) 15:50, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• I liked John's joke, and no one commented on it at ANI (I just did). I was only involved on the periphery. First time I think I got into a tussle directly with MF. Anyway, as I just said at ANI, it was mostly my fault. I was up in the middle of the night talking to Franamax. I couldn't sleep. MF insulted Franamax in another place and at the same time got involved in the item Franamax and I were discussing. I made a comment on Franamax's Talk page about MF being obnoxious (at times), and MF came over and, uh, responded. It provided just the soporific I needed and I went back to bed. Anyway, as I said at ANI, I don't understand why we waste so much time on this. So many camps at Wikipedia. If I ever run for adminship (less and less likely), I think I can count on MF for an oppose. But that was probably true even before last night. Anyway, back to my putative contributions to the project.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oh, you had something to do with this? I didn't even know since these things develop predictably and the outcome usually has little to do with the input. Don't worry about adminship and Malleus. If you're a reasonable person MF might well support you, and if he doesn't, well, lots of other fish in the sea. I was very pleased to get his support, though; some votes are worth more than others, hence the ! , I imagine. I have no opinion on the original matter of this fest, since I don't know, I don't care, and I like you both well enough. And we're all expendable--all except the Lady, K, and Mandarax. Drmies (talk) 17:35, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

• I wouldn't want to overstate my role in the current contretemps. I think I was just a passing blip on MF's radar screen - he was no doubt in a snit before I stepped in, and I wasn't aware of all the other things swirling about (I'm usually in the dark). I can't comfortably predict what MF will do if I ever run for admin as my limited experience with him and his volatility make it too much of a crapshoot, but if forced to give odds, I'd say 85-15 oppose.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:42, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

  I'd say 50–50, but then I do have some inside knowledge. ;-) I've not infrequently supported candidates at RfA whose guts I basically hate, so long as I have reason to believe them to be honest. (Obviously I'm not referring to the good doctor here.) Malleus Fatuorum 13:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• Ha, "good doctor"--I am sure that's meant sarcastically, and thus violates some ArbCom restriction. I'll have your ass for this, Malleus! Oh, I just commented there--that's fifteen minutes of my life I'll never get back. Good luck with it. Drmies (talk) 15:14, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• Based on this, I've decided to resign. That will at least end my dithering about whether I should run. :-) BTW, my close is holding up better than yours - nah-nah-nah-nah-nah.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:40, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Resign from what? Almost-admin? Don't worry about it. What's surprising is that someone actually felt it incumbent upon themselves to go and complain. What's funny is that this, ahem, person didn't complain about non-admins undoing my closure, haha. That's one problem with WP: having to deal with such foolishness. "Censorship"--baloney. Drmies (talk) 03:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Nobody should feel the need to resign from anything over this little contretemps. Drmies, I'm afraid Wings of Desire is the only Handke I know, but it is stupendously brilliant if you have not seen it. --John (talk) 12:29, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

ANI comment

I noticed your response only after the closing. In response to your assertion that ANI threads about Malleus only create drama and don't get anywhere: You're right about them not getting anywhere, and I said as much at several points early in the thread. The thread continued anyway, so I posted my thoughts where I felt I had something to say about the situation.

The drama, however, gets "created" far earlier than the ANI threads.

"Why don't Malleus haters start a Facebook page and periodically post a link here?" Because they're desperately trying to resolve the situation and they don't know what else to do. They're not just seeking to make noise, as much as that's how you would characterize it, being that you don't find Malleus' behavior to be of any concern. Respect the fact that others disagree. I respect you.

"why don't you run for admin...?" I wouldn't run for admin if you paid me. Well maybe if you paid me, but it would have to be a lot. I could write a pretty long dissertation on why, and I don't think there's enough room here. Equazcion ^(talk) 21:45, 4 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Oh, please do, there's plenty of room for just about anything on Drmies's Talk page. That's part of what makes it so wonderful. And how much is "a lot"? :-) --Bbb23 (talk) 21:48, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Because they're desperately trying to resolve the situation and they don't know what else to do. ... 9_9. The really sad part is that there actually might be someone who could be convinced to believe such propaganda memes ... unbelievable. Sorry Drmies .. I'll work a bit harder on keeping my mouth shut (or in this case - my fingers off the keyboard). Chedzilla (talk) 22:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that desperation is palpable. Imagine is less responsible editors had gotten to work on it. We'd have had a serious disruption at ANI, and maybe another case at ArbCom, and disgruntled editors and admins who think we have better things to do. Thanks Chedzilla! And Equazcion, I was speaking rhetorically. I don't see a lot of the haters in that ANI thread go through RfA. Drmies (talk) 12:44, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

So you actually think the people who complain about Malleus are not trying to resolve the issue. That's interesting. I expect that kind of outlook from most people, because when faced with a monumentally contentious issue, each side tends to think something similar about their opponents as a reflex. The educated and self-aware ones question that off-the-cuff response in themselves though. I'm really extraordinarily surprised and disheartened to see you agree with Ched on such a common and historic fallacy. The people who disagree with you aren't evil. The sooner people like you make an effort to understand their motivations, instead of pigeonholing them as noise makers, the sooner this situation has a chance of taking a positive turn. Equazcion ^(talk) 13:05, 5 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is what I actually think. I see no evidence to change my mind but I haven't looked at the ArbCom thing yet--perhaps there is something there that proves that these editors are of eminent good will and are not out to block one of the project's best editors. I don't think that the people who disagree with me (and Ched, and a host of others--although, according to one of the aborted issue resolves, fewer than last time) are evil, though I do wonder what "people like me" are (are you pointing at article creation, GA work, number of edits volunteered to the project, or just at the fact that we disagree with you?). Sorry, but I call bullshit: what the Malleus detractors want, and I have no reason to believe that you're not one of them, is a ban, pure and simple. Any of you, at any time, could post a friendly message to his talk page if there's something you find problematic. Any of you could, at any time, not engage in escalation. And one more thing, and I'm really pissed about this: I prefer remarking on the periodicity of the anti-MF threads on ANI and not on the individuals starting them, an intent not mirrored on the other side. I don't even care so much who "people like you" are, but I do think that if you/they/whoever spent more time doing something useful, you/they'd take away the idea (which I'm dead sure is completely wrong) that there's a flock of vultures flying circles over ANI just waiting for Malleus to be reported again.

OK, I accept your verdict that I am guilty of a "common and historic fallacy", and won't even point out that it's not that common (since there's more of you than of me, supposedly) and that "historic" is possibly overstating the case (another little shit storm on a website somewhere hardly compares with real historic events). But who's looking for accurate phrasing here. Now, let's close this. I have some conflict solving/vandal blocking/protecting/etc to do, besides some proofreading and maybe work on or creation of an article, and you have an Arbcom case you need to keep up with that attempts, methinks, to ban an editor with over 100,000 edits and a bunch of GAs and FAs, not to mention positive interactions with dozens of editors in which he did more good than most editors I know including me--so we each do our own to improve the project. Good luck to you in your endeavors. Drmies (talk) 13:50, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

"people like me" -- People who vilify and are dismissive of the other side of this debate.

"I prefer remarking on the periodicity of the anti-MF threads on ANI and not on the individuals starting them..." -- With the exception of this discussion?

"what the Malleus detractors want, and I have no reason to believe that you're not one of them, is a ban, pure and simple." -- Correct. That or a change in behavior, or an escalating series of actions designed to bring about a change in behavior. But yes, either the behavior changes or he's gone; those are the options as I would present them.

"OK, I accept your verdict that I am guilty of a 'common and historic fallacy'...'historic' is possibly overstating the case (another little shit storm on a website somewhere hardly compares with real historic events)" -- Not saying common in this issue, if that's the misunderstanding. It's a common mindset in current events, human history, day-to-day life. And yes, history, as conflict is conflict, whether global controversy or website shitstorm, and if you think historic lessons don't apply, and you can't find any parallels, I'd say that's part of the problem. This is not a unique situation.

"Now, let's close this." -- Sorry, I started replying before getting to this part. Feel free to take the last word if you'd prefer to end this. Equazcion ^(talk) 17:57, 5 Jul 2012 (UTC)

I just want to clarify that there was much more to say here. I don't want any onlookers to take my silence, with regard to certain implications made above, as agreement. I stopped writing when I noticed the "let's close this" remark, though. It just seems pointless to put effort into talking when the other guy isn't interested. Equazcion ^(talk) 18:25, 5 Jul 2012 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the clarification. For a "guy" who thinks it's pointless to talk to me, you're doing an awful lot of it, much of it with a foot in your mouth. See, now you got me talking like Malleus, but I think the matter is clear to the onlookers. Absent behavior modification, you want to have Malleus banned and you don't give a fuck about how that lofty goal may be achieved. You and your ilk, what is sometimes referred to as the "civility police", a police force which isn't bound by the rules they aim to apply, aren't doing anyone any favors. Go write an article. Drmies (talk) 18:37, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes it's more important to talk for the sake of the others who might be watching, even if you don't think you're getting anywhere with the one you're talking to. "See, now you got me talking like Malleus" -- Yes, especially with that comment: Someone else always made you do it. "you want to have Malleus banned and you don't give a fuck about how that lofty goal may be achieved" -- I don't recall saying that, and it's not even a little bit true. I've made many attempts to discuss the issue with Malleus, but he reacts... well, like you are, yelling with fingers in his ears. If I were willing to do whatever it took to make Malleus disappear, I'd be reporting him whenever the opportunity arose, but I'm actually never the one to report him. He doesn't bother me, despite the fact that whenever we talk I'm treated to a slough of attacks and new derogatory names.

Many people make the mistake of thinking civility proponents are easily offended. For most of us that's not it. It's about maintaining an environment that's elevated above the average website in professionalism. If everyone were able to do as Malleus does, this would be a very different place -- and why shouldn't everyone be able to do it, if he does it? This is why we have the civility policy in the first place, and the way I see it, those who don't think it should actually matter are against a basic founding tenet and probably belong somewhere else instead. That's just my opinion though, and I respect the fact that this is a complicated issue on which many disagree with me. "a police force which isn't bound by the rules they aim to apply" -- I'll again say that I haven't done any policing myself. I do not report people for calling each other names, least of all when it happens to me. I tend to think it shouldn't happen on general principal, though, as I explained. I don't care about the occasional slip-up, but a long-term predictable pattern is another story. "Go write an article." -- I'll only respond to that by saying I myself don't tell people how to help (unless they ask); instead I'm just glad they do. Not to detract from article writing, as that's plenty good. And before you jump on the opportunity, no, I don't think arguing about what to do with uncivil people is necessarily always a better way to spend one's time ;) , nevertheless if you thought an issue were important enough to devote some time towards discussing, I wouldn't be arrogant enough to suggest something better. Equazcion ^(talk) 07:40, 6 Jul 2012 (UTC)

• I think that the puling masses at ANI that enjoy their online bloodsports need a swift round of rapidly escalating blocks for their unmitigated assholery and endless battleground behaviours. Such utter bullshite threads should be shut down about halfway as far as that last one got with the needful being redcarded (or redlighted;). Clueful admins need to simply act in the interests of the project. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 00:18, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Being a person that tends to research; I looked at Equaz's user page. The first sentence told me all I needed to know. — Ched :  ?  00:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

He and I go back; amusing that his user page is derived from one of my old ones. That wallpaper style user page really caught on. Even Coren stole it. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 00:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I closed it twice. I'm wondering if there shouldn't be some new rules. "A" is for "admin", right? How about non-admins can only comment by invitation or if they're directly involved? Of course that would take all the fun out of it, but at least half of the comments there aren't very helpful (including more than half of mine, no doubt). Ched, I'm sure that's a joke, though I wonder. Drmies (talk) 00:34, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I made a suggestion some months ago; be back with a link in a jiff... Br'er Rabbit (talk) 00:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

This needs reviving. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 00:41, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. But you'll need an editor with balls to push this through. Dennis? Drmies (talk) 01:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure, I'll point him at this; we've nothing to lose but a sea of shit. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 03:04, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Wait a second Drmies, are you calling me a professional troublemaker here? Not sure if I'm flattered or offended. I just poured my first cup of coffee so I will have to let you know later. That is an interesting concept, not sure if that would be my choice of methods, but interesting. I have noticed ANI extra busy lately. I've gotten to where I automatically just copy my response and reload the page to paste it in. I don't even try to post it the first time there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 10:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Your twice-closure and my once-closure has received some press at Arbcom.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's exciting, I guess. I'm still saddened over Signpost's lack of coverage of my spectacular Wiki-life, and I never got a t-shirt. Link? I'm not familiar with the architecture of ArbCom. Drmies (talk) 00:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

[5].--Bbb23 (talk) 00:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

And if you get me banned from commenting at ANI, etc., I'll personally come down to Alabama and turn off your A/C and drain your pool. A guy can't have any fun anymore.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:48, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, start that RfA and I won't have a leg to stand on. Also seriously, for every you there's half a dozen [names predacted]. Oh, and now our downstairs A/C went out--thanks, fucker, for the bad vibes you sent this way. Fortunately the heat wave seems to be over. Drmies (talk) 00:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Serves you right, I hope you melt. Out here in the drier west we don't have a downstairs A/C except in those big mansions with 3,000,000 square feet owned by celebrities and tycoons. I used to know this girl in high school whose house was so big we used to refer to one part of it as the New York wing.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:11, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Bbb, they're coming tomorrow morning to fix it, on short notice since Mrs. Drmies is a little over a month away from delivering another future Wikipedia editor. Are you sure you want me/us to melt? Can you spell p-e-r-s-o-n-h-o-o-d? Drmies (talk) 01:15, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

How exciting! I didn't say I wanted Mrs. Drmies to melt - she didn't call me a fucker and accuse me of breaking the A/C that clearly wasn't well-maintained by someone else in the household. Have you fixed on a user name for the baby?--Bbb23 (talk) 01:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Fame at ArbCom!

Thanks for the link, Bbb. I'm hostile to civility enforcement--I guess that's true, at least to their version of hostility enforcement. Ched's and Carrite's comments are below Wikidemon's; I guess I'd rather be with them than with Wikidemon. Drmies (talk) 01:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Varlaam on Talk:Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Are disruptive intentionally disruptive edits like this enough to get this guy blocked? It is not just his insistence on using the talk page as a forum for his opinions and observations, it is his insistence on using edit summaries to make snarky comments, such as: "We all know you make a career out of obstructionism, RJ," which was his comment the first time I reverted him, and: "Before I was rudely interrupted ...". Frankly, it's gone on long enough with him. If the ANI were still open, I would have brought this there, but it was closed with no action having been taken. How long must we deal with his attitude? ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 00:57, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• If I hadn't gone to see the fireworks I might could have blocked him before they did it again, after your final warning. Did you report them to AIV? Blocking now is postmature (is that a word? no), but keep me posted. Sorry, Drmies (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I reported him at AIV, but was told his edits were not vandalism. That's why it helps to deal with someone who knows the history. Oh well... ---RepublicanJacobite_TheFortyFive 12:42, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. Sorry. Drmies (talk) 12:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I've asked for some more input elsewhere. It may well be, RepublicanJacobite, that an RfC/U is the best way to go. It's odd, in light of the above discussion, that the real disruptors are much more difficult to deal with, whereas valuable content contributors get gangs of dramatists ganging up on them to get them banned. But so be it. Can a case for long-term disruption be made against Varlaam? I see two separate disruptive incidents, but I am not familiar enough with the editor. Keep me posted. Drmies (talk) 18:04, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Your note

Hi Drmies. Thanks for your note, the protection and for asking the IP to please pay attention to our concerns about their editing. I know that things have gotten tricky as we have more editors from countries where English is not the first language - not that they weren't tricky before that. Questions like - is it just the language barrier? Is it because the rules on the foreign language wiki that they've been editing are different? etc have to be considered. I think we've covered things as much as we can with the IP address that they are currently using but they've changed it before and probably will again. Thanks for your time in dealing with this. MarnetteD | Talk 19:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

• I don't know. I've seen plenty of editors whose first language is not English but they still give edit summaries, respond on talk pages, etc. Their written English obviously isn't perfect, sure, but I can't judge how good their reading skills are. Bottomline is, though, that there is a serious amount of disruption--I was a bit taken aback when I looked at their contribution history and how many editors had been busy reverting their changes. I have no doubt that they will continue in the same vein under a different IP (not necessarily IP hopping to avoid scrutiny, mind you), which I thought confirmed by some of those articles' histories as well. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 20:04, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

quick note ...

heading for bed .. but if I skimmed your talk page correctly .. then I understand that you have a new little one on the way ... VERY cool buddy. Congratulations. That does tend to put things into perspective ... All my best. — Ched :  ?  01:37, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

+ 1. This could be our youngest ever admin, although some people might not thank you for that ;) - Sitush (talk) 01:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Ha, thanks to both of you. Mrs. Drmies gave me that special look when I read Bbb's comments; last time she gave me that look was when I proposed getting a motorcycle with a sidecar to take the kids to school. She also doesn't think I should call people "fuckers". Of course, she said "oh shit" in the presence of the two youngens when I told her she'd been filling up the pool, accidentally, for the last four hours. It is looking better, though. How do people live in Alabama without pool and AC? Tide rolls, Altairisfar? Drmies (talk) 01:48, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

As the honorary chair of the civility committee, you should know, pursuant to Rule 1.A.c.ii, that saying "oh shit" is a Grade 4 offense, whereas calling someone a fucker, particularly somone who is smart, kind, and good looking, is a Grade 2 offense. The former may lead to at most a warning, in the discretion of the admin, whereas the latter is an automatic block of at least 24 hours.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:34, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, Drmies can't block her as he is obviously involved enough to have a future admin on the way. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:58, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes well, my oldest learned to use the phrase "Jesus Christ" in its correct context (i.e. not referring to the man himself). If I haven't already said it, congratulations! We have lots of kids toys for sale at our garage sale tomorrow if you want to stop by. Sorry, but we have already sold the car, I am sure you wanted a right-hand-drive Mitsubishi Lancer Wagon, didn't you? Two weeks and I am on a plane to Bangkok (then Zurich, then London, then Halifax). I expect them to play One Night in Bangkok as I walk through the airport. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 03:09, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

It pays not to skim comments - I just read kelapstick's as "We have lots of kids for sale at our garage sale tomorrow if you want to stop by". A severe enough mis-reading to cause me to double-take. - Sitush (talk) 13:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't joke about that, Sitush. I'm sure K-stick worked very hard to produce said kids, though probably not as hard as Mrs. K. Happy trails, yet again, K-stick! Halifax, is that in Canada? Sounds like a fun town, with an odd name like that. Drmies (talk) 14:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

For the bacon cabal

100% ground bacon burger. "A Patty made of 100% ground bacon topped with a slice of thick cut bacon, a sunny side up egg, a new “bacon island” dressing and a heavy slice of bacon cheddar cheese." Bacon Bacon Bgwhite (talk) 08:14, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

• My heart skipped a beat when I saw that. Not sure if it was my love for bacon, or just a reaction to all that cholesterol, but I want one. I'm glad to see that others like eggs on their bacon cheeseburgers as well. Ok, now my left arm is going numb.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:32, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
• I might have to travel to California just for that burger. I had a bacon sundae the other day at Burger King, I'm still trying to find out the best way to introduce it into Bacon ice cream since it isn't exactly the same thing. Ryan Vesey Review me! 12:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

It is a variation of bacon ice cream, that would seem to be a reasonable rationale to include it. Bacon ice cream itself isn't a singular thing, but a general category, and this would fit in the Recipe or Notable uses section (ugh, bad subtitle....should be "Variations" or similar) as it adds context, showing the idea has moved from niche to somewhat mainstream, imho. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 12:50, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of changing Notable uses to Variations. My trouble was I didn't know if I should include it in Notable Uses or create a new section heading for Variations. It didn't really fit with the style of other forms of bacon ice cream in that section. In the rest, the ice cream is bacon flavored while the burger king version is just ice cream with some bacon bits thrown on top. Ryan Vesey Review me! 13:05, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I made bacon ice cream a few years ago (with maple syrup) which is still being talked about. Everyone liked it but no one wanted seconds. This bacon burger is revolting, but I haven't had breakfast yet (Ryan, you're sick, but you can always make your own). Yes, the sundae would fit in, I think. In other news, I'm watching the Tour de France and I wish I were there. Anyone know of a job in France? Drmies (talk) 13:13, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

My favorite bacon related sandwich is toast 2 eggs 6 strips of bacon and barbeque sauce, but I haven't had it since I set the fire alarms off in my dorm. As for a job, unemployment in france is 10.2% so good luck with that. Ryan Vesey Review me! 13:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:WikiProject Editor Retention

Because I don't have my finger in enough pies, I've started a project. Well, actually I just made the first edit to the page and other editors are really doing the work. Either way, there may be some things you find interesting or useful here, and you have some experience that would certainly help the project. It is still very alpha, but Bbb23 and now John Carter are working on some formatting, and the next step will be finding out why editors leave and trying to find solutions, from policy changes to better reward systems to whatever we discover will make a difference in keeping good editors here longer, and keep them from leaving in frustration. I really think this is one of the most important challenges that is and will be facing Wikipedia as the flow of new, quality editors slows, and hoping you (and your talk page stalkers) will consider helping us shape this new project, with the lofty goal of keeping the quality talent we have here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

• I'll have a look, Dennis. I may be too jaded though. Thanks for giving it a shot. Drmies (talk) 00:10, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • It is more than just dealing with administrative issues, some may be old friends. It is a broad project that seeks to cover every aspect of retention, including trying to bring retired editors back into the fold. And we have free cookies. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 01:53, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Angelina Lavo (page deletion)

Hi. I read your comment left on the Angelina Lavo talk page. I didn't use the same information for the newly created page and I found better sources for referencing. Your criteria for notability includes the following "Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network." & "Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network.". Two of the updated references meet that criteria.

Please let me know what the issue is, and if there is a way to go about putting the page back up. Thanks Musicvet120 (talk)