User talk:Erutuon/2014

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A better late than never thank you and some relevant stuff

		The Template Barnstar
		For all the templates you've created, especially the magnificent LSJ template that I have so many times used!!! Thanatos|talk|contributions 09:46, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Now that I've thanked you*, let me move on:
Please take a look at this template. I've created it (by copying yours and then by reading, experimenting; basically knowing what you made it do I went through its code to understand the syntax, then read a help page or two and then experimented, did trial and error till it worked) so that we can point to the Intermediate/Middle LSJ; this is especially handy when the LSJ at Perseus lacks an entry on something but the intermediate LSJ doesn't (see e.g. ἀΐσσω (LSJ) vs ἀΐσσω (middle LSJ); it's used at the Aegis article; I had tried to change the reference to use your template and seeing that it lead nowhere, this was the reason, motive and incentive that made me try to expand the LSJ template). I also wanted it to be backwards compatible so that we could simply upgrade, not write/use a separate template (writing a new one would obviously have been much more easy for me to do), let alone not change the call/syntax of the template at the articles whereat it's used. So could please take a look, check if it's OK and then comment on whether you agree to upgrade your template or if you want to alter something(I haven't written an new documentation to reflect the "upgrade" yet; waiting for you to first check the template per se, etc). Many thanx!!!

*I must have used the LSJ template more than any other user, including you (the L&S one, I think that I've used it only once, still)... :D What I do is first do the search here (a fantastic tool for a thousand reasons, check it out if you don't know it; if it weren't for the gravitas and all its consequences therefrom of the Perseus Project, I would have us change your template to use the tranlatum.gr LSJ search instead), then copy&paste the beta code and greek text to your template, then verify (in an edit preview at the article) that the entry was correct or that it indeed leads to a lemma at Perseus and then voila!!!!!

P.S. Next 2 things would be Slater and Autenriet... ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 09:54, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the barnstar, and I'm glad to learn someone's using my template. :) I looked at the template and then some entries in the Middle Liddell. It seems that it's going to be hard to link to the Middle Liddell because some of the entries have a more complex URL. For instance, αἰσχυντέος has the URL ...text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:alphabetic+letter=*a:entry+group=19:entry=ai)sxunte/os (I replaced all the hexadecimal codes with their corresponding characters for readability, as I did when I created the LSJ template). The way you've written the template, the URL only has the entry= part. That code will work for some entries, like ἀΐσσω, but not for others, like αἰσχυντέος. It's kind of irritating that the URL is inconsistent. You could code for it by making it possible to enter an "alphabetic letter" and "entry group" in the template (with a way to turn those parameters off when they're unnecessary), or you could choose to link to another site that has Middle Liddell. Both options are inelegant in different ways, unfortunately...

Anyway, I think it's a good idea to add the Middle Liddell, if you can get it to work. That LSJ wiki looks really cool. I'll probably use it when I want to look up a word. It seems much easier to use than Perseus, and the entries are better formatted. I haven't been doing much of that lately, but sometimes I have random curiosity about a word. I wish I could edit there and improve some stuff. I don't know what the colors in the entries mean. — Eru·tuon 21:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• 1. When I had noticed from my side the %3D at the end being replaced on the address bar with a =, I tried to use that instead in the code, but for some reason it didn't work.I may try again, perhaps I erred somewhere.
  EDIT: Replacing the whole link works (it proberly links when it didn't before when I had replaced only some of the special characters), yet still, when the page opens, the url reverts to the original form; I don't know why this is happening; filling in the url manually works without reverting. Anyway hardly a real problem...Please confirm when possible.
  EDIT2: Having checked again now, it doesn't seem to revert. I haven't changed anything inbetween (at least anything relevant; only changes have been the ones mentioned at the PS below). I have no idea why this is happening. Anyway, it Seems fixed. Please confirm when possible.
• 2. ai)sxunte/os|αἰσχυντέος|mLSJ. What I guess you've done is clicking on the alphabetic index of the middle LSJ (or anyway something similar elsewhere on Perseus). I think the same or similar things would happen if you clicked on an entry on the alphabetic index of any Perseus Dictionary/X; e.g. see the same thing happening to the LSJ proper: alpha, ἀάζω; from the alphabetic index, it seems to be calling different urls; this is also visible at the entry box for the desired beta code. Please try again and inform whether there are indeed different url forms that matter.Please confirm when possible.
• P.S. Hmmmmmmmmm; what I did notice trying to write this reply, is that for some reason, if the template is preceded by an asterisk or a colon then it breaks the line after the output, the following text just won't stick to same line. Egad!!! Grrrrr!!!!
  EDIT: Fixed. A damn wild space (or 2) inside, at the end of, the template code, was the cause. Please confirm when possible. Thanatos|talk|contributions 00:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

It's normal for certain characters in URLs to get replaced by a percent and a hexadecimal number from the character's position in Unicode, and it won't mess anything up. In the template we can use the character rather than its number for readability.

It looks like they've changed the regular LSJ too, after I created the template, so that its URLs are more complex. That's annoying. Probably now many instances of the LSJ template will have bad links. Or maybe not. The links in Template:LSJ/doc aren't broken. Puzzling. — Eru·tuon 07:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

1.The thing is that now they aren't getting replaced. It's not a problem, it just feels weird not knowing the cause. 2.I don't understand what the problem is. The links or your template are not broken or at least they don't seem to me; the URLs you're referring to are just different URLs. The calls(-URLs) both your and my LSJ make are to let's say the independent entries at the Perseus LSJ(s) while the entries(-URLs) you are talking about are the alphabetic index analogous entries of the former. E.g. independent entry: lemma, alphabetic analogous entry: lemma. Thanatos|talk|contributions 10:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

No reply... Went ahead and updated template and its documentation. Thanatos|talk|contributions 13:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Template DOC: You haven't properly checked the code "problematic" complex examples you've brought back in red. 1. Why should the Ionic form referring to the Doric one be considered wrong/problematic?!? 2. The Attic form is there (lew/s1) doing the same thing as the Ionic one and differentiating itself from a different word (le/ws2). Thanatos|talk|contributions 20:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Hm. Yeah, in this case my assumption is that one would want to link to the main entry providing the meaning of the word and its forms in multiple dialects rather than the entries for dialectal forms that point to the main entry, and therefore a link pointing to the dialectal entries (or whatever the technical term is) is considered wrong, as is a link that doesn't point to an entry at all. Do you think there's sometimes a reason to point to a dialectal entry?

I suppose we could put the entry for the Attic form into the table, if you think that would make sense. I guess when I made the table I didn't look closely enough to find that that entry existed. — Eru·tuon 20:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

1.Do you think there's sometimes a reason to point to a dialectal entry?
Of course there is; not only with various dialectal forms. It's done all the time in dictionaries (and similar lists); guessing for saving space but still having the entry listed:
A reader, reading a text, bumps into λεώς; she doesn't know its meaning; she looks it up. "Oh" she says, "it's just a (dialectal) variant of λαός, the word that survived (in fact thrived) into Koine and modern Greek"... ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 21:55, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

2.I (think I) understand what you were and still trying to do. You have a handy example of a common word with three dialectal variants through which you were trying to show the problems with Perseus' LSJ, the subject of the page section. Before removing the entries I had tried to fix it but then decided not to. Imo it may make the explanation more confusing; I think the two laos examples suffice. Anyway, I had written a long reply but I now see that in the mean time, you've edited the page again. My only objection is lew/s1 and lho/s being in red as per 1.

PS A propos, I don't recall having recently encountered any entry with macra or breves. Are there indeed, at least any more (perhaps they were indeed in the past), any (B code, I mean)? Thanatos|talk|contributions 21:55, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

1., 2. I think you've misunderstood my question. By "point", I mean, does a Wikipedia editor need to link to it? I thought a Wikipedia editor would only want to link to the main entry, which contains all the information on the word, not to the entry redirecting the reader to the main entry, so the examples with links to a redirecting entry were "incorrect" and were colored red. If my reasoning was wrong, we can take out the red.

3.I think the URL for λαός needed a macron (underscore) when I created the documentation page. Between then and the time you edited the documentation page, this seems to have changed. — Eru·tuon 02:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

1,2. Is it so impossible or even improbable to imagine a scenario in which a wiki-editor (perhaps the aforementioned female reader) might need to substantiate that e.g. λεώς is a dialectal variant of laos?!?!? ;-) 3. I've imagined so and hinted thus manyatimes. The question is, has it indeed changed or are there still such entries? I guess we'll probably find out by doing and keep doing... P.S.I'm not asking just out of search for general knowledge; if makra and brachea are not used anymore, then the template documentation is out of date and somewhat misleading. P.P.S. FYI and BTW: Searching for words containing (in the stated "B Code" manner) a brachy returns void and a makron returns a 500 Internal Server Error (the latter, after some time)... Thanatos|talk|contributions

1. Well, if I were looking to substantiate that, I would use the main entry. It provides the most information. But perhaps others wouldn't. P.S. I believe the words that would most likely have macrons are those that have a homograph that doesn't have a long alpha, upsilon, or iota in the same place, though I could be wrong. Anyway, maybe I'll come up with some such words if I think about it a little. P.P.S. If you search for an acute accent (a slash: /), you'll get the same server error. So all that proves is that the server doesn't like to look for Beta Code accents, regrettably.

Actually, we can search for a^ and u^ and i^, and all of those return empty, so perhaps there are indeed no microns. Searching for macrons doesn't seem to be working at the moment... — Eru·tuon 19:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

1.Found one; without a breve, it doesn't work!!! :) 2.Replaced btw at the documentation the word micron with brachy... ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 08:45, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Strange that it didn't show up in my search. It's puzzling that I seem to have acquired the word "micron" for the diacritic, but can't find it in a dictionary with that meaning, or in Smyth's Greek Grammar where he mentions vowel length for alpha, iota, and upsilon. Perhaps it's used somewhere else...

You don't seem to have mentioned your opinion on the "redirecting" entries. Do you think an editor would see a use for linking to them? — Eru·tuon 22:30, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, why not?!? PS. I thought that, judging by my previous comments, it had been obvious... ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 16:08, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, I thought you might have changed your mind, and I expected you to make the change if you hadn't. So I did it for you just now. There we go. — Eru·tuon 16:27, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Cool!!!!

See καλύπτρα, καλύπτω. :)
Learned the trick from the Veil article;
plain links had been used therein before I started playing with the article,
but it's still working having replaced them with the template;
after all...why shouldn't it? ;-)
So:

• 1. what other useful Perseus syntax tricks are we missing?
• 2. do you think we should cover this trick (and more if and when we discover them) at the template doc?

P.S. I'm not referring to the wrong (assuming it's wrong; I could be biased by Modern Greek) accent; the middle LSJ lists it correctly: καλύπτρα. And the highlight works there also! Why wouldn't it?
Thanatos|talk|contributions 03:07, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

flowering period

I think you edit improves the article. The phenology varies from place to place, even within the British Isles. A reliable worldwide source is unlikely to be available though, why? a) because the phenological observations won't have been done everywhere, b) because the species is not actually identical everywhere - there are several different cytotypes for example, with their own geographical distributions, and taxonomically the boundaries of the species are not very clear. I think that making it clear that the flowering period varies with location, as you have done, is about as specific as the article needs to be. Plantsurfer (talk) 18:47, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Adding a foreign language link

Hi. Can you show me how do I add a foreign language page link to the side lists of specific pages in English? יהודה שמחה ולדמן (talk) 14:39, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

If you haven't seen it, take a look at H:IL, which explains interlanguage links. — Eru·tuon 14:47, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Quebec French

• brun [bʀɚ̃] :
• un kilomètre : [ɚ̃ ˈkʲi.lɔ̜.mæɪ̯tʁ̥] :

Hello, /œ̃/ is not diphthongized in Quebec French. 138.229.25.158 (talk) 22:29, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for directing me to the sound files! I actually hear a little diphthongization in the first sound file. It seems that the vowel starts out somewhat more open, and then closes. Maybe that's because of the uvular r. I think un in the second example would not be diphthongized at all, because it is unstressed; diphthongization affects only stressed vowels, according to Quebec French phonology. If a recording of the pronunciation of un as a numeral in a phrase-final position could be made, that would be a better test of the presence of diphthongization. Also of a word such as parfum that doesn't have an r before the nasal vowel. — Eru·tuon 23:55, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• http://www.forvo.com/word/81/

[ˈkatʁ̥œ̈ vẽɪ̯ ɚ̃], /œ̃/ is rhotic. 138.229.25.158 (talk) 00:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it's rhotic, but it could also be diphthongized as well. However, it appears that it isn't diphthongized. Thanks. — Eru·tuon 01:24, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

• un party :

Here, I heard [œ̃ʏ̃ ˈpaʁtɪ]. 138.229.25.158 (talk) 02:39, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Ancient Greek accent: Exceptions (i.e. about the long ultima->no accent on antepaenultima rule exceptions)

A short comment (I won't presently edit or comment on the article other than the minor edit you've already seen and this comment):
You might want to check Vox Graeca, page 49 (this too for e.g. a handy online text/list etc.) about this; i.e. in short, that there is the possibility and view that the πόλεως etc. classes/exceptions may actually represent a synizesis (poljos or whatever, etc.), i.e. that if so, they're not really, actually, exceptions. Thanatos|talk|contributions 06:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I recall seeing that in the previous form of the article before I replaced it with my version. I personally find the explanation of quantitative metathesis to be sufficient to explain the accent of πόλεως. Smyth briefly mentions synizesis in §60, 61, in cases like those in the link you give (I don't have quite enough German vocabulary to read it much, though), but he doesn't mention it in relation to accent. I suppose synizesis could be mentioned in the article, but since there is already a good explanation for the accent of πόλεως (and by extension πόλεων), it seems unnecessarily wordy to add another explanation. Synizesis probably needs to first be described in Ancient Greek phonology; then, if the section on exceptions is expanded and especially if some accents are found that can't be explained by quantitative metathesis, it should be mentioned in Ancient Greek accent.

I will be getting ahold of Vox Graeca from the library soon, and I will probably add some more information from it. — Eru·tuon 07:13, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

1. Just so that you won't waste your time, Vox Graeca doesn't say much about it per se; what it does say, it's more so in passing rather than in detail; I've pointed to it, let's say, as a citable serious modern and authoritative source. 2. Yes I could have pointed to Smyth but his e.g. list of relavant examples is shorter. 3. Quantitative metathesis does not explain why the said rule gets broken; it could have, after all, caused, it could have been accompanied by a shift of the accent to the right... ;-)
Anyway... happy new year! Thanatos|talk|contributions 08:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I think a shift of accent to the right would have been unlikely to happen in πόληος > πόλεως. From what I can recall, sound changes usually do not trigger accent changes like changes of inflectional suffix do. For instance, contracted forms usually keep the same accent: ποιέω doesn't change to ποίω. Similarly with assibilation and compensatory lengthening: λυόντι > λυοῦσι. Perhaps there are exceptions. Of course, πόλεως is one of the few cases where a sound change affects the vowel in the ultima. — Eru·tuon 19:50, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

No rule broken vs rule broken... ;-)
P.S. This rule has been drilled down, portrayed as sacrosanct, into the minds of endless Greeks through time when learning ancient Greek or even in "proper", educated, high register speech; yet, so, when the realisation of its breaking in otherwise very common, everyday utterings like poleos comes, the feeling is mystifying... :) Thanatos|talk|contributions 22:58, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you're saying; yes, πόλεως if it doesn't involve synizesis is a breaking of the ultima-related accent rule; yet, as I said, it follows the rule of retaining the placement of accent that existed before vowel length was changed by contraction or lengthening, and non-recessive accent due to contraction in a verbal form that usually has recessive accent can also be considered as breaking a rule. Both πόλεως and contracted forms in verbs break at least one rule, though perhaps the ultima rule is a more invariable one than the recessive accent on verbs. — Eru·tuon 23:11, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, as I can remember, although admittedly I'm getting old :), here in Greece, retaining the placement/syllable of the accent after e.g. φθογγικά πάθη (phoneme changes?) take place, isn't included in any "official list" of the rules of the language(s) (source stating this as a rule?); the contracted verbs for example, do not break (or anyway they aren't thought of as breaking) any - such stated - rules, by transforming e.g. -άω to -ῶ (or "equivalently" in standard monotonic M.Gr., -άω to ώ).
On the other hand όταν η λήγουσα είναι μακρόχρονη/μακρά η προπαραλήγουσα δεν τονίζεται (note the M.Gr. irony) is something like a godsent mantra, a divine decree here :D (OK this is obviously a hyperbole and I'm obviously only talking about people actually interested in this subject)... At the same time, noone even blinks, nobody seems to even passingly think about this rule when uttering, memorizing or teaching the e.g. NOM πόλις GEN πόλεως ... or even M.Gr. NOM πόλη GEN πόλης/πόλεως ... inflection, i.e. actual ancient or archaic but still used in learned modern speech forms that break the rule.
Anyway a supposedly short comment and exchange has turned again into a long, long discussion... So let me repeat, this time officially, happy new year!!
PS Behold, I give you the following factoid of the day, as a new year's gift :) :
Perhaps a somewhat similar example and phaenomenon specific to M.Gr. is the accent can only be on one of the last three syllables of a word, never before them rule, when viewed from the perspective of a γάιδαρος ("donkey")... :) (note: I'm am of a, let's say, slightly different opinion about diphthongs in M.Gr.)
Thanatos|talk|contributions 08:53, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this is quite a long discussion on such a small point! ;) It's interesting to hear your point of view on the rules of accent as an actual Greek speaker (even if it's Modern), in comparison to mine as a person who only knows Ancient Greek (in an obsessively historical-linguistic way) — our understandings differ very much because of this difference. And I had no idea about the existence of these true Modern Greek diphthongs and how they interact with accent — and all the other information on the page that isn't mentioned in the Wikipedia article on Modern Greek phonology. I suppose there's nothing more to say on it, but happy new year! — Eru·tuon 09:11, 1 January 2015 (UTC)