Fullfacts

Where is the alleged police report? only thing available is londel defamatory article. Stop spamming

Please sign your texts! The police report is available in the Police Archives in Helsinki. If you feel it is adviceble in this situation to publish it, I am sure it can be arranged. --Fullfacts (talk) 17:10, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

In situations like this, it is mandatory to present a published source. Please read the Wikipedia guidelines. Unreferenced information can be deleted.--130.234.68.224 (talk) 07:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I respect that and will publish the documents when I have them available in digital format. The documents are, according to Finnish publicity laws, public material and available to anyone (Police archives, Helsinki). --Fullfacts (talk) 07:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

No, no. I mean that in situations like this, it is mandatory to present a published secondary source. In other words, we need a published reference for the fact that the document is available in the said archive. I did not find such a mention in the Magnus Londen article. He claims that the document exists (and I fully believe his word), but he does not inform us where it is archived. Most probably it is a police archive, but that is a unreferenced conclusion and does not belong to Wikipedia. The document itself should not be published, as Wikipedia does not rely on original documents. Unreferenced information can be deleted, and only secondary sources are accepted as references.--130.234.68.224 (talk) 07:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I understand. Sadly, this means the conflict here on Wikipedia - Ior Bock, only will continue since at least one user claims the everything about the police report is made up, even though there is a source. But right here and now we are only discussing the fact WHERE these documents are, right? --Fullfacts (talk) 07:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. Wikipedia presents all view-points in a neutral manner. That is not a problem in this case: Rational persons can jugde by themselves whether they believe a well-respected journalist, who has seen official documents, or a semen-gobbling mystic whose stories are a public laughing matter. And the irrational persons are beyond help.--Kaikenlaisia (talk) 07:32, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Good we have mrs. Kaikenlaisa to tell us how to adress this issue, telling us who to believe and not - and assure us with the truth of a 20 years old "public laughter". Today it is not the laugther that rings through, but rather a sad mumbling and a demand for a more decent and thorough investigation about Ior Bock. What Wiki presents will be judged as Wikis reliability in this matter. Her views on Mr. Bock is obviously based on personal emotions and social conventions, rather than a balanced intelect and first-hand information. The campaign to keep up Magnus Londens harsh bias is actually going to jeopardize this reliability. Since Kaikenlaisa has already proven her disrespect for the ethic dimension and the person-in-quesation, she should be refraining from participating in the production of this one article - and spend her expertise on other, more serious matters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.90.25.231 (talk) 23:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Fake references

Fullfacts, please remember that you cannot add information in referenced sentences, if that information is not clearly stated in the said reference. That equals faking of references, which is a very serious offence in Wikipedia. In the Ior Bock article, you had done that several times.--(Kaikenlaisia not logged in) 130.234.68.224 (talk) 09:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Uups, did I? Sorry about that. But where exactly? Maybe I'll just stop editing this article since it seems such a difficult place to be in... --Fullfacts (talk) 16:24, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

At least in this edit: According to the offical police report from 1962, signed by Ior Bock himself, the brothers had been listening to music while Ior Bock was playing with a gun. According to Ior Bocks statement to the police the gun went off when he threw it to his brother. The police report is available for anyone in the archives of the Finnish Police (Helsinki).{{Article by Londen}}

In the Londen article, the police archive was not mentioned, and as far as I recall, neither was the Ior Bock signature.--130.234.68.224 (talk) 12:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Similar problem is present in this edit, but it was made by an anonymous editor: According to Londen, official documents available for anyone in the National Archive in Helsinki, prove that Ior's biological mother was a 23 years old gardener in Porvoo. His father was apparently a Spanish sailor (this is naturally not found in the offical documentation). In 2003, Ior Bock answered to Londen's queries by explaining that the adoption-theme was a necessary precaution from his mother to hide the incestous act that lead to his birth. Londen certainly does not mention the National Archive or public availability.

--130.234.68.224 (talk) 12:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

In the internet-version he does mention in the pre-text that all offical documents are available to anyone according to Finnish publicity laws. --Fullfacts (talk) 12:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

However, the archives and many other details were not mentioned. But now Mr. Londen seems to have added a very detailed source list in his article, so everything's fine. Bock must have been a very charismatic person, as his disciples seem to be willing believe almost everything as long as it has come out of his mouth, in complete disregard of proven facts.--193.111.93.44 (talk) 13:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Thye last comment is a complete disregard of academic discussion as such, leaving insults to infect the issue even further. Thus you may answer the two most simple matters that substantiating your insults;

1. What, exactly, aree the facts you refer to? 2. What do they actually prove?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.88.171.116 (talk) 02:11, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Please do sign your texts, ok? I am not naturally responsible for what other users (in this case: user 193.111.93.44) write, but the fact is anyway that in the web version of Londens text there have been for some time detailed facts about his references, among other things concerning the police report from 1960. Fullfacts (talk) 20:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)