Gasiseda

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I am Petros Apostolopoulos, a Ph.D. candidate in Public History at North Carolina State University. My Ph.D. project examines how historical knowledge is produced on Wikipedia. You must be 18 years of age or older, reside in the United States to participate in this study. If you are interested in participating in my research study by offering your own experience of writing about history on Wikipedia, you can click on this link https://ncsu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_9z4wmR1cIp0qBH8. There are minimal risks involved in this research.

If you have any questions, please let me know. Petros Apostolopoulos, paposto@ncsu.edu Apolo1991 (talk) 17:40, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

July 2022

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on KAI KF-21 Boramae. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. BilCat (talk) 23:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Your recent editing history at KAI KF-21 Boramae shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. BilCat (talk) 00:13, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

@Gasiseda:, you need to follow the WP:BRD process and let the discuss happen first on the talk page. Remember that we have time here, there is no deadline, it's not a problem at all if the info on the page is not perfect for a while. --McSly (talk) 00:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

K9 user map

I think dividing it into K9 Thunder & parts doesn't make sense. Every single K9 thunder was converted and adopted some localized systems. It is just a matter of percentage. I recommend use one color, and write description as "Map of operators of K9 Thunder or its variants". Other way is to include K10 and K11 with different color as well. (K9 operator), (K9 & K10), (K9 & K10 & K11). Kadrun (talk) 03:17, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree. I thought it wouldn't be a problem for readers to see and understand the map.

However, some argue that Turkey's T-155 and Poland's AHS Krab use localized parts or subsystems, so they are different from the K9. If someone raises an objection to this, the issue will have to be agreed through discussion later.

I think it is better to change the K9 or variant (Part or subsystem) operator to blue and K9 & K10, K11 operator to cyan. First, we must classify K9 operators and K9 & K10, K11 operators. Can you let me the list of K9 operators and K9 & K10, K11 operators? Also, if you suggest an appropriate phrase for description, I will work on changing the map. Or if there's any other way, please suggest it Gasiseda (talk) 13:27, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

K9: Turkey, Poland, Findland, India, Estonia K9 & K10: Korea, Australia, Norway K9, K10, K11: Egypt Kadrun (talk) 18:17, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I checked. It will be changed to the previously used blue and cyan colors. Gasiseda (talk) 04:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikiproject Military history coordinator election nominations opening soon

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Correction to previous election announcement

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K2 Black Panther rework won't happen until K1.

It will be very hard to explain what Black Panther is unless K1 article is completed since two shares a lot of technologies. Kadrun (talk) 18:22, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Lack of reference materials Gasiseda (talk) 04:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

At least I found sources for K2 penetration at 800~850 mm haha. Kadrun (talk) 05:37, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Is it a reliable source? I couldn't find the source for K2's penetration of 800-850 mm. All information on 120 mm ammunition made in Korea was reflected in the 120×570mm_NATO article based on the data I have collected so far. There is detailed information on South Korea's penetrator technology on ADD's website. However, in Wikipedia, images are not accepted as sources and cannot be added to articles (To be exact, it is a bare link).

Information on the 120 mm penetrator developed by ADD can be found here: https://www.add.re.kr/board?menuId=MENU02608&siteId=null

And based on the paper and research data, i have written an article on CN08 120 mm gun and KAPS (countermeasure), but the article is incomplete and requires source collection. I am currently collecting data on K9's CN98 155mm gun and will start writing articles soon. Please let me know if you have any papers or research materials of CN98 barrel. And today, I will add video sources to K2 and K9 articles. Gasiseda (talk) 03:31, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Only thing I know is that CN98(?) research started with extending KH179 barrel. I will have to look at the older version of K9 documentary, which I didn't check out before. Kadrun (talk) 09:15, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

You are editing the ammunition page right? Here's good info for world first self-sharpening technology on tungsten heavy alloy ammunitions http://tv.dema.mil.kr/web/tv/replay/tvNewView.do?media_seq=800653

Both sources for K2 Black Panthers are from Donga (동아). APFSDS at 800~850 mm (https://weekly.donga.com/3/all/11/2178296/1) 700~850 mm (https://weekly.donga.com/3/all/11/3076471/1). Doesn't mention which ammunition on the 2nd source. 700 mm probably the HEATs. Also don't forget that several Korean sources claim 55 caliber has 10% increase in firepower. If you apply that to K276 (600~650), that becomes 660-715 mm penetration. 700 mm penetration is probably based on K276 being fired from 55 caliber. Kadrun (talk) 09:15, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I've seen this source of Donga ilbo, but this is based on figures estimated by someone from the Korean military forum Bemil from 2017. The first person to mention that the K279 had a penetration of more than 800mm was not a military expert, but was just a member of the Military Forum. Later, the DC Inside and Namu Wiki also incorrectly mentioned the penetration force of the K279 as 850 mm. And Shin In-gyun (신인균), who provided the sauce to Dong-A, is not a military expert. He is just a YouTuber.

According to the official catalog of Poongsan, the ammunition manufacturer of K279, the penetration force of K279 is more than 700 mm. If the actual penetration of the K279 was more than 800 mm, it would have been writed more than 800 mm in Poongsan's catalog. In addition, the official catalog of Poongsan lists the penetration force of the K276 as 600 mm or more, and the Army Headquarters lists it as 650 mm.

Poongsan's official catalog: https://blog.naver.com/jhst3103/221700833227

Source of the Korean Army Headquarters: https://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/bbs/view.html?b_bbs_id=10040&num=90054

In addition, articles such as 120×570mm NATO will be immediately refuted if you use sources from the news. Because these articles require accurate sources of figures, the sources provided in the news are unreliable.

I often refer to military papers when I write or revise an article. I searched more than 200 a military academic papers to write an article. Also, I have visited Gyeryong World Military Culture Festival (계룡세계군문화엑스포) every year since 2018 Because I can get the right information from there. Gasiseda (talk) 13:08, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

800 mm per (https://www.insight.co.kr/news/355134)

800 mm per (https://weekly.donga.com/3/all/11/2713912/1) Kadrun (talk) 17:07, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I believe you are right about the penetrations, I'm just pasting sources here anyway haha. Has the military ever released their sample displays as usual they did with K276? Kadrun (talk) 18:48, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

As far as I remember, the Korean Army exhibited the K276 only twice, and most of them were displayed along with the K279 at the exhibition booth in Poongsan at the annual DX KOREA. I remember what an official from Pungsan said at the time. He said, "The detailed penetration of the round is information protected by the Korean Defense Specification, so I can't tell you unless you're a civil servant or a defense contractor."

Whenever I visited DX KOREA, I always asked the Pungsan official the same question, but I couldn't get the answer I wanted. When I get a reliable source, I will modify the penetration figures of K279 APFSDS. Gasiseda (talk) 04:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Here it says in 1980 NATO tests, M1 with 105 mm DU ammunition showed better performance than German Leopard 2 120 mm ammunition (https://koreascience.kr/article/JAKO198141548524455.pdf)

This may have to do with K280? (https://n.news.naver.com/mnews/article/001/0001137312?sid=100) (https://www.khan.co.kr/national/national-general/article/200511011807331) Kadrun (talk) 07:49, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

The German DM33 developed in 1987 has a penetration of 480 mm at 2000 m. The 105 mm depleted uranium penetrator shows penetration similar or superior to the 120 mm German tungsten penetrator without necessarily making it as long as the tungsten penetrator. This can happen enough with an American 105 mm depleted uranium penetrator.

Although the K280 HEAT-MP-T has a very similar appearance to the American M830A1 HEAT-MP-T, but differs in cartridge length and weight, warhead weight, and Muzzle Velocity. I looked up the paper that mentioned K276 and K280, but my personal guess is that ADD may have referred to the design of the M830A1 when developing the K280, or cooperated with the US. Gasiseda (talk) 10:39, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

I will start jump in K2 Black Panther editing. I was searching news for K1, but as it reaches mid 2000s, I also see K2 related news in same time. I don't want to do work twice haha. Kadrun (talk) 23:29, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I took some rest. BTW, the SAP means Special Armor Package. Americans named it that way and I do not know the reason. Meanwhile KSAP is Korean Special Armor Plate. Kadrun (talk) 09:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Well done, bro, and welcome back. you're right. I've been through a lot of data, but I haven't found any evidence that chobham armor is called the special armor plate. The bulletproof plate sold by Samyang Comtech is also called SAP (Special Armor Plate). I think the name special armor plate (SAP) is only used in Korea. and I was going to ask you for help, but that's good. I'll tell you the details on your talk page. Gasiseda (talk) 14:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

What is clear is that the SAP is the identical material that is used by M1 Abrams per agreement. If not, it will be a violation of contract. What did M1 Abrams used as armor plate -> Chobham. Therefore, SAP is either Chobham, or one of variation that must be kept as top secret by the United States. p.s. too much Diablo IV Kadrun (talk) 16:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the K2 Black Panther Engine -> South Korea never planned using its own engine. Korea started the engine program only after the T-155 Firtina deal that showed possibility of veto from Germany regarding K2 exports. Engine development started years after K2 program began, thus years of delay was already expected by the developers. Regarding the acceleration difference, it actually is 2 meters difference from reaching 0 to 100 meters compared to German design. Kadrun (talk) 16:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you, when Hanwha attempted to export K9 to the Middle East in the early 2000s, export negotiations were suspended because Germany imposed an arms embargo on the Middle East (I remember it was the UAE). After that, the development of domestic power packs began around 2005 and 2006. Also, many people still don't know the difference between German MTU and Korean DV27K engines. The MTU engine is based on the short stroke engine, which is mainly used in sports cars, and the Hyundai Infra DV27K engine is a long stroke engine used in trucks and heavy equipment. Of course, it is common knowledge that short strokes perform better than long strokes in terms of acceleration. I will add the differences and technical data tables for the two engines soon to provide more accurate information to DV27K.

I'm really free these days but I got into an accident while working and the ligament in my right hand was cut off, so I'm recovering now, but I'll continue working on articles that need to be improved. The good news I learned recently was that the South Korean military parade, which disappeared in 2013, will be revived after 10 years In addition, the South Korean military parade will unveil an L-SAM high-altitude missile defense system called the Korean version of the THAAD for the first time. I will get a lot of photos that I can use as thumbnail images for the article at the military parade in Seoul on September 26. Gasiseda (talk) 08:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

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영어 위키백과의 대한민국 해병대 관련 잘못된 정보

안녕하세요?

제가 영어 위키백과 List of military special forces units 문서에 대한민국 특수부대 관련 잘못된 정보를 수정을 하다가 외국인 유저와 한달 넘게 토론을 하면서 분쟁을 겪고 있습니다.(토론창 참고)

분쟁이 생긴 이유는 다음과 같은데 Gasiseda님이 영어 위키백과 유저 소개문에 쓰신 내용과 일맥상통합니다.

2016년 3월에 '스파르탄 3000'이라는 별칭의 신속기동부대가 대한민국 해병대에 편성된다는 보도자료가 배포된 적이 있었습니다.

그러나 실제로는 2016년 5월에 기사처럼 공식명칭 '해군·해병대 신속기동부대', 상징명칭 '제승부대' (制勝部隊)로 출정식을 거행하며 임무를 시작했고 '스파르탄 3000'은 해병대에서 실제로 사용하지도 않은 그러니까 2016년 3월 언론기사에만 등장한 명칭입니다.

그런데 텔레그래프 등 영어권 신문사에서 대한민국 해병대에서 "스파르탄 3000"이라는 특수부대를 창설했다 이런 내용으로 오보를 발행했고 그 후 2016년 5월 신속기동부대 '제승부대'라는 별칭으로 출범한 사실은 외국 언론사에서 보도하지를 않고 2017년까지 대한민국 해병대에서 "스파르탄 3000"이라는 특수부대를 운영한다는 식의 오보를 계속 전파하여 관련 영어권 오보 기사가 총 4개가 있습니다.

그런데 외국인 유저는 텔레그래프 등 Reliable Source에서 특수부대라고 보도했으니 무조건 특수부대가 맞다면서 한국 언론사 기사들을 무시하면서 목록에서 "스파르탄 3000"의 삭제를 거부했습니다.

그래서 제가 해외 언론 기사가 오보라는 것을 확실하게 입증하는 방법은 대한민국 해병대의 공식 답변밖에 없다고 생각을 하여 제가 근래 국민신문고를 통해 민원을 제기해서 답변을 받았고 공문 답변 스크린샷을 보여주었습니다.

이 정도 했으면 솔직히 스파르탄 3000이 특수부대라는 것은 잘못된 정보임을 인정을 할 줄 알았는데 공문 답변 스크린샷은 포토샵을 통해 해병대 로고를 붙여서 위조할 수 있으니 인정할 수 없다 이런 변명을 했고 같이 토론에 참여하여 저의 의견을 지지해주던 외국인 유저가 위키미디아 공용에 관리자 승인으로 올라가면 위조가 없다는 것도 증명이 되니 위키미디아 공용에 업로드를 추천했습니다.

지금 위키미디아 공용에 아래처럼 업로드를 하기는 승인을 받아야 할 것 같고 국민신문고 답변도 국민신문고의 민원 공개게시판으로 이동을 요청 중입니다.

• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ROK_Marine_Corps-Official_Document.jpg

그런데 외국인 유저가 아래처럼 말을 한 것으로 보아 위키미디아 공용에 답변 공문이 올라가고 국민신문고 답변이 공개게시판으로 이동해도 쉽사리 인정을 안 할 것 같습니다.

After you go through all the trouble of validating your response from ROKMC, and if it is accepted, that is still just a single point of primary source information. The entry is supported by four secondary sources. If you read the guideline WP:PST, you'll see that secondary sources are the preferred type of sourcing of content on WP.

영어를 잘 하시는 것 같은데 혹시 시간이 되시면 토론창 들어오셔서 참여를 부탁드리겠습니다. 꾸벅 Footwiks (talk) 13:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Apology 섹션은 외국인 두 유저가 토론 태도 관련해서 언쟁이 있었고 이에 대해 사과하는 내용으로 여기 섹션에 코멘트 다실 필요는 없습니다.

그리고 논점을 약간 잘못 이해하신 것 같은데 논점은 해병대 공식 답변처럼 스파르탄 3000은 잠깐 언론에 나왔던 이름으로 사용하지도 않는 이름이고 특수부대가 아닌 신속기동부대이기 때문에 저는 List of military special forces units에서 'Spartan 3000' 삭제를 주장하는 것이고 외국인은 텔레그래프 등에서 'Spartan 3000'이 특수부대라고 나왔기 때문에 이를 근거로 특수부대 목록에 유지시켜야 한다는 잘못된 주장을 하는 것입니다.

지금 토론 주제가 공식이름인 신속기동부대(Quick Maneuver Force) 이제 사용 안 하는 상징명칭 제승부대 그리고 2016년 3월에 언론에서만 나왔던 Spartan 3000이란 별명 중 어느 명칭을 사용해야 이런 논쟁이 아니기 때문에 명칭 관련 절충안은 필요가 없는 상황입니다.

결국 Spartan 3000을 현재 영어 위키백과 특수부대 목록에서 삭제하고 그 대신 ko:해병대 특수수색대대가 들어가야 대한민국의 정확한 특수부대 목록을 제공하는 것입니다.

아무튼 토론 참여 감사드립니다. Footwiks (talk) 16:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

해병대 특수수색대라는 기사가 영문위키백과에 등재되어있지 않기도하고 한국어판위키에서도 그루터기 형식으로 너무 짤막하게 등재되어 있는데 스파르탄 3000을 삭제하고 해병대특수수색대를 목록에 올리는 것보다 해병대 특수수색대 기사를 작성하는 것이 우선이 되어야할듯 싶어요. 스파르탄 3000이라는 명칭이 애초에 해당부대에서 사용되던 별칭도 아니었기 때문에 목록에 ko:해병대 특수수색대대가 포함되는 것이 당연하다고 생각하지만 해당 주제로 논쟁을 벌이고 있는 외국인에게 확실하게 근거나 증거를 제시하는 것밖에 방법이 없을듯합니다. 이전에 11th Maneuver Division기사를 작성할때도 소스가 너무 부족해서 작성하는데 너무 힘들었었었는데, 지금 겪고계신 논쟁도 한국군부대에 대한 소스가 인터넷에 워낙 부족하기 때문에 일어나는 상황으로 보입니다. 더군다나 부대에 관련된 주제는 제가 주로 다루는 분야가 아니라서 뭐 어떻게 도움을 드릴 수 없네요. 현재 영문판 위키백과에 7기동군단 기사를 작성하려고 소스 수집중인데 해병대특수수색대도 최우선 순위에 넣도록 하겠습니다. 이후에 해당 논쟁과 유사한 사례가 발생할때 영문판위키백과에 해당 주제와 관련된 기사의 등재여부가 논쟁에서 상당히 유리하기 때문에 기사 등재 여부는 정말로 중요합니다. Gasiseda (talk) 08:57, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

제가 List of military special forces units 문서를 처음보고 했던 편집이 스파르탄 3000을 삭제하고 해병대 특수수색대대(ROK Marine Corps Special Reconnaissance Battalion)를 넣었는데 되돌려지고 분쟁이 일어나서 지금까지 한달넘게 토론중입니다.

참고로 이것도 해병대에 직접 확인했는데 해병대 특수수색대가 아니고 이제 대대급으로 증편이 되어서 해병대 특수수색대대(ROK Marine Corps Special Reconnaissance Battalion)가 공식명칭이라고 합니다.

조언 감사드리고 시간되실 때 스파르탄 3000 및 해병대 신속기동부대는 List of military special forces units에 들어갈 부대가 아니므로 삭제해야하고 특수부대 리스트에 들어가야 할 대한민국 해병대 부대는 해병대 특수수색대대(ROK Marine Corps Special Reconnaissance Battalion)라고 짤막하게나마 글 남겨 주시면 대단히 큰 도움이 되겠습니다.

그리고 제7기동군단은 VII Corps (South Korea)으로 영어 위키백과에 문서 만들어졌습니다. 영어 위키백과는 저명성 가지고 삭제가 빈번해서 국군 부대 문서 만들기가 헛수고 될까봐 망설여지더군요. 1st Special Forces Brigade 이 문서도 제가 만들었는데 저명성 부족으로 삭제틀 달리고 했다가 겨우 생존했습니다

Footwiks (talk) 13:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

영어 위키백과의 대한민국 해병대 관련 잘못된 정보 (2)

영어 위키백과 군사 분야에 활동하다가 나중에 혹시 도움이 되실까 해서 이번 분쟁 발생 원인 공유드립니다.

등잔 밑이 어둡다고 외국인이 제시한 외국 소스들 전문 분석을 안 했는데 전문을 확인하고 나서 왜 이런 오해가 생겼는지 알게되었습니다.

(1) Telegraph (2016-03-21) - Telegraph 연합뉴스 인용 - "according to the Seoul-based news agency Yonhap

(2) The Diplomat source (2016-03-24) - "The Diplomat 연합뉴스 인용 - "a South Korean military official revealed to Yonhap News last Sunday."

그런데 연합뉴스 대충 아래와 같이 기재가 되어있지 특수부대 창설이니 특수작전을 수행한다 이런 내용이 없습니다.

"군 관계자는 "지난 1일 경북 포항 해병대 1사단 예하에 3천명 규모의 연대급 신속기동부대가 창설됐다"고 20일 밝혔다.

이 부대의 별칭은 고대 그리스의 최정예 전사였던 스파르타인들을 연상시키는 '스파르탄 3000'으로 지어졌다.

결론적으로 Telegraph와 The Diplomat 기사 노출 빈도를 위해 의도적으로 과장해서 특수부대, 특수작전을 넣었거나 번역 실수를 했습니다.

(3) New York Times (2017-09-12) - New York Times 문구에 이런 문구가 있습니다. - "the South Korean defense minister, Song Young-moo, told lawmakers in Seoul that a special forces brigade defense officials described as a“decapitation unit" would be established by the end of the year."

어디서 많이 들었던 내용이라 생각했는데 2017년 9월에 발표한 국방부에서 김정은 참수부대 창설 이 보도자료 기반으로 뉴욕타임즈에 발행한 기사였습니다.

(4) Nzherald (2017-09-13 - Nzherald는 텔레그래프와 뉴욕타임즈 인용하면서 "according to UK newspaper the Telegraph" and "New York Times Korea correspondent Choe Sang-Hun reported" (NY Times source's reporter was also Choe Sang-Hun)" 스파르탄 3000과 특전사 제13특수임무여단 (참수부대)을 짬봉해서 기사를 발행했습니다.

그리고 "해병대 신속기동부대" = "ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force"가 국문과 영문 공식명칭인데 해병대 신속기동부대를 구글 번역기가 Rapid Task Force, Rapid Maneuver Unit 이렇게 수시로 번역이 달라지니까 여기서도 혼란을 유발한 것 같습니다.

Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard로 갔다가 Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard 여기로 이동을 해서 다시 토론을 거칠 것 같은데 시간나시면 Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard 여기에 케이스 열리면 의견 남겨주시기 바랍니다.

감사합니다. Footwiks (talk) 15:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

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