User talk:Guliolopez/Archive 10

Castle Maine

Many thanks for all your work in improving my references for Castle Maine, and for the other general additions and fixes. Much appreciated. WatermillockCommon (talk) 14:59, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

No worries. It takes a village. :) Guliolopez (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

McCarthy of Muskerry → MacCarthy of Muskerry

Hello, @Guliolopez. This is a message concerning an article you edited recently. After observing how poor the title of McCarthy of Muskerry was, I tried to change the title, however, I encountered a problem moving McCarthy of Muskerry to MacCarthy of Muskerry. You can view more details here. BurgeoningContracting 14:08, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Tulrahan

Hello. I think the Tulrahan page needs a infobox. OutlasterGuto (talk) 20:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Grand. There are examples, in the other towns and villages in County Mayo articles, that could be copied/tweaked. Guliolopez (talk) 15:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

British rule in Ireland

Wikipedia exhorts us to be bold while editing, which I have done, but to your dissatisfaction, so as a courtesy I will explain here what would have been too long to include in the edit comments.

You wrote:"Entirely unexplained changes. Why is the context changed to English rule? And linked to the Kingdom of England (927 to 1707)? Why is "British control [of parts of the island]" linked only to article on formation of UK and NI? Why change republic to nation state? Not only are these changes unexplained, but many make limited sense relative to scope of article or geographic/temporal span"

To address in the order presented:

• "Why is the context changed to English rule? And linked to the Kingdom of England (927 to 1707)?"
  • It is not. The "context" of the article remains the same. Chronologically and politically, it was first the Kingdom of England that extended rule over Ireland, prior to the existence of a "British" monarchy, i.e. the union of the crowns of England and Scotland, as well as Wales. As rule of Ireland was assumed by the successors to the Kingdom of England, e.g. Great Britain, United Kingdom, etc., they are represented elsewhere in the article with links. Is is disingenuous to imply that rule from overseas in Ireland only began with "British" monarchies, when it clearly began much earlier, but both are still addressed in the article.
• "Why change republic to nation state?"
  • Simply because the qualifier and adjective "republic" is used repeatedly in the context of the point being made in the paragraph already, clearly indicating it is a republic. By inserting the term "nation state" it avoids repetition while also reinforcing the concept that the Republic of Ireland became a peer nation to the UK and was not a subject state as the Free State was, which is a confusing point for readers who are unfamiliar with history.

 Shoreranger (talk) 14:11, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks Shoreranger. RE:

• "Wikipedia exhorts us to be bold". Indeed. The "bold, revert, discuss" cycle is an extension of that. And so now we have the discussion. Why we're having it on my talk page however, when Wikipedia "exhorts" that we have article content discussions on article talk pages, is another matter. So I'll open a thread there.
• "as a courtesy I will explain here what would have been too long to include in the edit comments". Great. I note however that you didn't use any edit summary whatsoever in your previous edit. Whether long. Or short. Not 500 characters. Not 5 chars. None. As Wikipedia exhorts us to do.
• "disingenuous". That's an unusual use of that word. As it is given to mean or imply an intent that someone (the article creator? me? who?) is being insincere or misleading. Deliberately so. Certainly there's no insincerity or pretense on my part.
• "[use of British in opening] implies that rule from overseas in Ireland only began with 'British' monarchies". Personally I don't agree. But happy to take it to the relevant article talk page to discuss better ways to frame the opening few words. Personally I read the opening sentence as covering the entire topic. Not just the beginning events of 1169/1170.
• "'nation state' V 'republic'". Fine. Now, with an explanation, it is understood. That wording probably is less repetitious. Thanks.
• "[[Formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland|British control]]". I note that you didn't address my concern with this syntax. Which, to my eye, is something of an EASTEREGG. Happy to have that discussion on relevant article talk page too.

(If further discussion on article content is required, please engage on relevant article talk page/thread. If further discussion is required of an "editor-to-editor" variety, happy to continue here.) Guliolopez (talk) 16:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Knockanillaun

I found a photo of Knockanillaun. https://www.geograph.ie/photo/3083808 DigitalNeoMinato (talk) 21:07, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I have no context for this talk page post. Who are you? What do you want me to do with this information or link? Have you perhaps confused me for another user with whom you have a connection or collaboration? Guliolopez (talk) 10:52, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

My name is Santana Throckson and I'm new to this Wikipedia thing. DigitalNeoMinato (talk) 19:34, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh. OK. Welcome. Is there something you need or want help with? I ask because, as far as I can see, that image is already on Commons. Here: File:O'Boyles, Ballymanagh - geograph.org.uk - 3083808.jpg. If needed, see H:IMAGE. Guliolopez (talk) 21:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Enniskeane vs. Enniskean

Okay, to start:

1. (Your statement: But that is NOT the spelling used by any of the linked authority sources)

This is blatantly false and could easily have been ascertained had you checked the references listed in the article. see this one. and two. I am including two because I am not sure of what the definition of an authority source is and can not find one, however I am confident that the Irish Independent and the other reference would be considered a reliable source in WP:Reliable sources.

2. (Your statement: The local authority (Cork County Council), census authority (Central Statistics Office) and placenames authority all use the previous spelling.)

This is again, false, because of the previous reference that was included in the article that's from the Cork County Development Plan Review of Population and Housing from as recently as March 2020.

Because of the previous statement, I have added what would generally be considered authority sources that show the town is officially known as Enniskeane. Your reversal of the move is against consensus, and therefore, changes have been made to the article.

I am sure the name is Enniskeane, when checking the websites of the sawmill and the clubs (association football and Camogie), it lists the name solely as Enniskeane. There are no Irish sources about them that name the town as Enniskean.

This must have been an accident that was brought about when the page was created and after, the government sometimes began to use the name Enniskean, although this name is erroneous. To note, the town is quite small and I see in the edit history the correct name of the town on the article has been listed in the introduction and infobox since December 2016. I can not find any sources with the name listed as Enniskean before the time the Wikipedia page was created. Aquabluetesla (talk) 03:51, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Hi. Thanks for your note. While my edit summary/summaries could have been clearer or better put, in terms of:

• "[it is false to say that] The local authority (Cork County Council), census authority (Central Statistics Office) and placenames authority all use the previous spelling".

The census authority (Central Statistics Office) consistently uses the Enniskean (no "e") spelling (for example in 2011 census, 2016 census, etc.). "Ballineen-Enniskean" is the name of the census town.

The placenames authority (Placenames Commission) consistently uses the Enniskean (no "e") spelling (for example in logainm DB entry).

The local gov/planning authority (Cork County Council) is, indeed, less consistent. That linked planning document does, as you note, use the "Enniskeane" spelling. However, other documents published by the council, like this of July 2022 use the "Enniskean" spelling. And, I note that the road signage (managed by the council) also uses "Enniskean". So, perhaps, the County Council sources are (indeed) somewhat inconsistent.

• "no Irish sources about them that name the town as Enniskean". I'm not sure if by "Irish sources" you mean "Irish [language] sources" or "Irish [based] sources", but in this edit you literally changed the title of the Irish placenames commission entry. Giving the impression that it said/says "Enniskeane". When it does not. In all honesty, if any recent edit (of either of ours) was "blatantly false", it is this one. While, I am 100% certain, this was a good faith mistake on your part, this misrepresentation/misquoting of the source could not be left in place.

• your edit/summary here, about my change being "against consensus", what consensus discussion are you referring to? Perhaps you meant to say "no clear consensus (yet)" ?

• this edit summary, about it being "fallacious" that this is the name of the census town in the 2002 census record, what is that based on please? The 2002 census record seems to expressly give "Ballineen/Enniskean"?

If you want to have a discussion on what title the article should be, please open it on the relevant talk page. It would certainly be worth confirming a consensus on what the article title should be. But, FYI, my restoration of the stable title (18 years of stability) was perfectly within WP:RMUM and WP:TITLECHANGES norms.

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 09:59, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Names of Parliament of Ireland constituencies changed

Dear Guliolopez, wise man. I wondered whether you noticed the RM that changed the names of 30 county constituencies of the Parliament of Ireland. It is on top of the talk page of what is now called the County Antrim (Parliament of Ireland constituency), formerly Antrim County (Parliament of Ireland constituency). It seems that went through without discussion whatsoever. Were not the original names the official ones that are reported in the literature? e.g. this report What do you think about it? With many thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 17:59, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Johannes Schade. Apologies but I overlooked your note. In honesty, while I'd seen the RM (or the gist of it) on Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland/Article alerts, it wasn't something that I had a strong opinion on or specific expertise or knowledge to apply, and so I left it for others to discuss. It does appear that the RM was closed/actioned without much input. Personally I'm not sure what to suggest. I was going to suggest that you engage the proposing editor on their User Talk page. But you seem to have already done so. And they seem to have suggested, after some initial language issues/miscommunication, that there is room for compromise or discussion. If you feel I have something specific to add I'm happy to contribute. But, in all honesty, I'm not sure I have much to offer here. Guliolopez (talk) 01:23, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Coláiste Íosagáin, Ballyvourney

Please can you hold off and stop creating edit conflicts? Your latest intervention has just wasted fifteen minutes of my time, in an edit which I will have to discard. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Eh. Sure. Seems a bit of a sharply framed request. As edit conflicts are common. And as I'd made pretty much just that one edit. And I'd made it nearly a half-hour after your previous. And hadn't planned on any others. But sure.... Guliolopez (talk) 19:35, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

You made 5 edits.

I was working away adding bits which took time to assemble. What's the rush? Why not wait until the following day? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:40, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Eh. Sure. I made 5 edits. In two blocks. Hours apart. With gaps of between about a half-hour and an hour from your own edits. In that context, I'm still very confused as to where the sharpness in tone is coming from. But there is (as you note) absolutely no rush. Indeed. Guliolopez (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Greenhills

What youre doing with the greenhills page is disrespectful, locals that are from the area are adding useful information and you are just taking it down. Ive looked through all your edits and some are acceptable but most are completely relevant to the topic and you just erase them, why? Im not sure but i just want you to be a bit more careful when you start erasing useful information that people who just want others to learn about this beautiful neighbourhood 2A02:8084:4262:5980:65B8:92E8:6D67:F965 (talk) 23:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi 2A02:8084:4262:5980:65B8:92E8:6D67:F965. I'm not sure which edits you consider to be "disrespectful", but the only two edits I've made this year are this one (in which I removed nonsense about a road named "St Spunknuggie Road"). And this (in which I removed content which had been tagged as uncited for a year). If you can provide reliable references for any of this content, please add those references inline and feel free to update the related text to match those refs. If doing so, please consider WP:VER, WP:RS and WP:BURDEN. Guliolopez (talk) 15:13, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

The spunknuggie one wasn’t real sure, but why get rid of the other ones? 2A02:8084:4262:5980:CDA7:3599:3FEF:CD6B (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Because they were not supported by any references. And were tagged as such for a year. Without reliable references that be verified by readers/editors, hoax material and "real" material are indistinguishable. As per my note above, if you are aware of reliable/verifiable references (to support that text) then please feel free to find and add it. Guliolopez (talk) 19:12, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

ANI discussion involving you

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is User:Timfoley50 and the explorer Tom Crean. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:32, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

White Irish demographics on Republic of Ireland page.

Hi @Guliolopez. I agree that linking White Irish to Irish People is not ideal, however I felt it was the best choice as currently the White Irish page is about the 2011 UK census. Do you think it warrants a section on the ROI talk page? Ideally the White Irish page could do with an overhaul, but that of course takes time and effort, so for the time being I felt it was Irish People was the best fit. -Regards Boardwalk.Koi (talk) 19:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Hiya. RE: "White Irish (as target)". 100% agree that shouldn't be the target. RE: "White Irish (as article)". While I have no strong opinions, it does seem a bit odd for that title to exclusively deal with Irish migrants/diaspora to Great Britain. That said, personally I have no interest in reworking it to cover other potential uses of the term. RE: "Irish people (as target)". While also not ideal, given that the Irish people#Genetics section deals largely with the genetic history of native/Gaelic/Celtic peoples, it is possibly an interim compromise. Otherwise I wonder if we necessarily need to link each term in that section. As if each needs/has/warrants a directly relevant article. Guliolopez (talk)

Suibne of Skellig

Any pre-schism saint (such as our friend here) is venerated by both Churches👍 East and West said or otherwise Robert444444 (talk) 18:11, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

OK. But can that assertion be supported? As expected by WP:VER? (You've read WP:BIT right?) Guliolopez (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Invitation

Hello Guliolopez!

• The New Pages Patrol is currently struggling to keep up with the influx of new articles needing review. We could use a few extra hands to help.
• We think that someone with your activity and experience is very likely to meet the guidelines for granting.
• Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time, but it requires a strong understanding of Wikipedia’s CSD policy and notability guidelines.
• Kindly read the tutorial before making your decision, and feel free to post on the project talk page with questions.
• If patrolling new pages is something you'd be willing to help out with, please consider applying here.

Thank you for your consideration. We hope to see you around!

Sent by Zippybonzo using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 07:50, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Paudie Sheehy Edits

You have made some serious errors in your edits of my additions.

Most puzzlingly, you deleted my (valid though uncited) elaboration of the role of Secretary in Irish companies, particularly state companies, in the years prior to the 1970s. The Secretary then - and legally even today - may be delegated non-administrative, i.e. executive, work by the Board at the latter's discretion. In fact the Secretary, if also a director, may even vote at Board meetings and make Board level decisions. https://www.nathantrust.com/company-secretarial Nowadays the formal obligatory side of the major Secretary's job is done by people approapriately qualified persons who generally advise on little else outside their sphere of expertise, i.e. corporate governance. The role of adviser and/or enforcer of the managing director and Board's decisions is nowadays generally accorded to a chief operating officer (COO) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_operating_officer

You also de-capitalized the S at the start of this word, making the role seem of no more importance than that of an office secretary. This is most inappropriate.

I am wondering why you cut my final paragraph on Paudie Sheehy's career, a sort of coda on the man's life in its totality. I accept it was strong in its admiration of Sheehy - someone most people, even those born since the 1950s in Kerry, associate purely with Gaelic Football. Indeed I was no wiser than they until last Saturday when I decided to check up on old newspaper stories to see the nature of his sudden death. Growing up near Tralee in the 1960s and 1970s one always felt people held Sheehy in awe. This was strange as far more awesome players - notably Mick O'Connell - never evoked the same mystique.

Reading old newspaper issues enlightened me a lot on Sheehy's mystique. It is unusual for many sportsmen (apart from track athletes) to concurrently combine successful academic/professional and sporting pursuits. Sheehy was one of the few field sportsmen who did. Moreover journalists in national papers spoke at the time of his death of the courtesy with which Sheehy received them for interviews and his assistance to younger sportswriters in getting to know team members, understanding the preparation customs of the Kerry football squad and helpful suggestions for accommodation when in Kerry. I shall be adding a citation for those articles in due course.

This final coda on Sheehy simply had to evaluate his contribution to business in Ireland in the 1960s. It was not an indirect smack in the mouth at Tony O'Reilly - perhaps another of the few who combined a demanding field sport and professional career concurrently and whose marketing nous kept many small farmers in the game before EU entry. It was rather at those who in the 1960s built holding company businesses with borrowed money, gullible investors' funds and the relative innocence of the Irish public in business affairs. Most of these men knew little or nothing about the industries they operated in, less still about proper accounting but nonetheless knew how to charm and bluff national distributorships from major international groups by appealing to the latters' greed. These people and their practices are a matter of Ireland's recent economic history which you can research for yourself. I am happy to add references to that part of my content. The other group of businessmen I refer to - the professional administrators of largely oligarchial bureaucracies like managers of large national or international retail outlets promoted to their roles through literal seniority and orthodoxy - essentially exist wherever accountants tend to ascent to senior management roles, which today is almost everywhere. Economies need a share of such managers. But the public dispense little love toward them.

My point on Sheehy's "team player" approach to management is fair, I feel. I suppose the fact that a Kerryman schooled in Tralee when his memories of Sheehy were still fresh in people's minds didn't know his business achievements is evidence of that; others of my era and older were no wiser I have found. The final point about his having a hold on an almost personal warmth from the Kerry public during his life is an evident fact from the scale and diversity of his funeral. Photos of men's expressions at that funeral speak to the truth of that. https://www.kennellyarchive.com/id/NVP014/

Frankly, aside from a few extra citations to be rightly added to the text, I see no reason for your excising the last paragraph from my final edit of midday 1 August 2023. But if you feel otherwise then please elaborate specifically why.

Tamjk (talk) 19:32, 1 August 2023 (UTC) tamjk

Hello. There is a lot there, but I will try and cover your main points:

1. "you deleted my (valid though uncited) elaboration". Please read WP:VER and the related WP:BIT elaboration. In short, your "elaboration" (a form of opinion/editorial) was entirely uncited. As you note yourself. Per WP:BURDEN and WP:VER, "[a]ny material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed".
2. "You also de-capitalized the S at the start of this word [..] most inappropriate". No. It's not. It is firmly in keeping with MOS:JOBTITLE. The project style is not to capitalise job titles - like "chief exec" or "headmaster" or "farmer" or "hairdresser" or "football manager" or whatever. We don't even capitalise "king" or "president" when used generally.)
3. "why you cut my final paragraph / a sort of coda on the man's life in its totality / [that] was strong in its admiration of Sheehy". You've answered your own question. It was uncited. And non-neutral. And read as unattributed opinion and editorial. Related policies and guidelines include WP:VER, MOS:EDITORIAL, WP:NPOV, WP:NOROPED and MOS:NOTETHAT.
4. "aside from a few extra citations / I see no reason for your excising the last paragraph". Uncited editorial, unattributed opinions, and subjective turns of phrase like "it is true to say that" or "innate God-given goodness" and "almost personal affection bestowed on Sheehy by the ordinary people of Kerry" are misaligned with any number of the the project. Including WP:NPOV and WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. WP:VER is, frankly, almost the least of the problems with that sentence/para. The only way that stuff could be restored is if, in addition to verifiable and reliable references, it is clear that what is being expressed is a set of opinions and to whom those opinions can be attributed.

Cheers. Guliolopez (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

On the use of the adoptive verb in preterite form, i.e. "articled to a firm of accountants":

I appreciate it's not as commonly used as it used to be but it is still used by graduates of business who opt to train for an accountancy career. In the past - before college courses on accounting were offered - school leavers with appropriate grades in desired subjects would do bookkeeping and general clerical work in an accountancy practice (chartered, certified or public accountants) while taking an evening correspondance course on accountancy. This process lasts till the accountancy final exams are successfully taken - which may be within 2 years for a business graduate or 4-5 years for a school leaver.

Why not use apprenticed instead ?

The traditions of law and accounting professions play a part here. Saying "articled to" has always been a phrasing employed with trainees for these two professions.

Yes, apprenticeship is increasingly being applied to accounting trainees, especially those taken on directly from school. But the old phrasing has a reassuring quaintness about it.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=%22articled+to+%22+Chartered+accountant&ei=novLZOGWEJuxhbIPspGLsAI&ved=0ahUKEwjh3Z7ZrcCAAxWbWEEAHbLIAiYQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=%22articled+to+%22+Chartered+accountant&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiIyJhcnRpY2xlZCB0byAiIENoYXJ0ZXJlZCBhY2NvdW50YW50MgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyChAhGBYYHhgPGB0yCBAhGBYYHhgdMggQIRgWGB4YHTIIECEYFhgeGB0yCBAhGBYYHhgdMggQIRgWGB4YHTIIECEYFhgeGB0yCBAhGBYYHhgdSOGNAVC3jAFYt4wBcAJ4AJABAJgBgAGgAYABqgEDMC4xuAEDyAEA-AEBwgIIEAAYogQYsAPCAgsQABiJBRiiBBiwA-IDBBgBIEGIBgGQBgU&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

I would be content to leave it as "articled to ...".

The context eliminates any serious concerns of a derogatory or pejorative interpretation for most people. Tamjk (talk) 11:15, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Frankly, and in all honesty, if you have to write an essay to explain the use of a particular word, then I wonder whether it is the best word to use. You note yourself that it is not a commonly used term that is typically only used by certain people in a narrow band. Is there not an alternative word that or term that doesn't require an essay to explain or which is otherwise only readily understood by a sub-set of readers? Guliolopez (talk) 16:27, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Mr Lopez,

Would you please speak to an Irish or British accountant on the process of articleship and the usage of "articed" in obituaries of accountants ? I feel that nothing I say or cite, or any number of Google Search hits, will persuade you (a business neophyte) to otherwise accept it.

Doubt yourself for a change.

Take a walk on the wild side.

Tamjk. Tamjk (talk) 10:25, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi. I know plenty of Irish accountants. And have never once heard any use that word in that way. In all honesty I don't understand why we aren't considering the reader and are insisting on using a word that only "an Irish or British accountant" or someone who isn't "a business neophyte" would understand. Guliolopez (talk) 11:37, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Just ASK one right now this afternoon.

It's Friday - they might have some free time for you.

Otherwise: post into askaboutmoney.com

Tamjk Tamjk (talk) 12:25, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

While the link you added helps somewhat, if you don't see the problem here (that the reader or other editors have to ask accountants to explain terms used in a general interest article), then I'm not sure what to say. In the meantime please stop adding links that don't directly support the text of that article. Bye. Guliolopez (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

MOST people I encounter do NOT need explanation of what "articled to a form of accountants" signifies. Most people writing obituaries of accountants certainly don't worry about using this term:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=%22articled+to+%22+accountants&sxsrf=AB5stBi_jOsr7UztuQ2dL4BsOtMNS88Rqg:1691156747660&ei=CwHNZKTUJ7GEhbIPi8SqmAY&start=50&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjkhdDpkcOAAxUxQkEAHQuiCmMQ8tMDegQIBBAM&biw=1920&bih=907&dpr=1 Tamjk (talk) 13:46, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Talk-page stalker, here. Tamjk, seriously, use plain English when writing for Wikipedia's general audience, not technical or industry-specific jargon. I've been around the block a few times and never came across that term before now, despite my partner being in finance. Maybe... you just hang around accountants a lot, and talk shop all the time? 84,000 ghits is actually tiny. And here, we write for readers. Please see Wikipedia:Readers first - and read the guidelines infobox. Particularly points 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:03, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I have to clarify the matter of appointing one's preferred successor as secretary.

In today's corporate world, company secretaries of major corporations confine themselves to statutorily defined duties and the latter may be discharged by a persons with appropriate professional training, e.g. https://www.cgi.org.uk/professional-development/study

Modern corporations occasionally give the well-remunerated and relatively low-stress role of secretary to senior managers passed over or demoted from director positions.

However the role of Secretary (excuse my capital S) over 50 years ago was a very senior and powerful role. They usually were finance, management or law qualified people and as well as performing their statutory functions also had other roles like shareholder communication in person as well as by letter, advising the board or MD on legal or financial matters and possibly general corporate strategizing according to the needs of the company and their skill set.

It is a matter of fact that a number of Secretaries to Irish state/semi-state organizations later became MD of that organization. Dictionary of Irish Biography articles on 3 such persons are cited among my references: Joe McGough (Bord Bainne), Vincent Ferguson (Heinz-Erin) and P.J. Moriarty (ESB). I think it is easy to see how an MD favoring one of his team as his successor would use the Secretary position as a training ground for them: they could observe how divisional interests were defended, personalities engaged and compromises attained.

I thought that the comparison with today's role of chief operating officer was fairly (though not totally) valid insofar as the 1960s Secretary was as much a servant of the MD as of the board. But if you are not happy with this I will excise this point.

The size of the funeral was something for which you asked citations. I have added three. You will appreciate that in Ireland there are three different stages to an orthodox funeral: the waking in the deceased's home; the removal from the deceased's home to the church; and the final requiem service and interment. My principal reference (Kerryman Aug 1967) describes 2 days of waking followed by a huge attendance at the removal - perhaps because it was on a Sunday evening when most people were free and could travel long distances to Kerry. The requiem service and interment occurred on a Monday so it didn't quite match the removal attendance. Nevertheless the deceased's final journey from the church to the cemetery via the main streets at least was well observed, although the crowd seen at the cemetery was clearly much less - no doubt many people could not get off work to go that far. Tamjk (talk) 18:22, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Paudie Sheehy Wiki Page

RE: The statement that appointment to secretary position was a preparation for an MD position. =============================================================================================

I have made amendments to the Business Career paragraph.

This elaboration is provided in case your objections to my assertion is more than how I phrase it but rather in its reasoning. I have a feeling that you are unfamiliar with business management practice and do not instinctively read the footprints of management decisions for likely motivations.

The persons referenced who were appointed secretary, i.e. Paudie Sheehy, Joe McGough, Vincent Ferguson, were all senior executives and highly qualified in such fields as accounting, management, law, etc. Clearly these people were far overqualified for the mere statutory duties of a company secretary position alone. Moreover, ambitious people would only accept such a move "sideways" in their career were its duties augmented to embrace more executive and/or strategic advisory duties - otherwise their careers in their organizations would rise no further. In the case of Sheehy, we must ask why the Irish Sugar MD (Costello) would expend so much state money in sending him to (the very expensive) top US management schools were his executive talents to be mothballed indefinitely in the largely administrative role of secretary ? Sheehy's predecessor as secretary had been in that role for close to 20 years before his death in a car accident.

A secretary's statutory job required attendance at all board meetings. Although busy making notes of various members' points, a secretary could nonetheless absorb the nature of board decision making and use insights gained if applying for and acting in the top job. It is a common practice for MD's to find ways to involve them as early as possible in the major decisions of the organization and the competing interests within the company as it makes them. What better way for demonstrating this that have the aspiring leader have a minor role at board meetings where all decisions are played out ?

Wikipedia, you say, is about information - factual information. But factual information is not merely a listing of cited facts. It is also about rational and sensible deductions from those facts in the light of common experience. I believe that my reading of state company appointments vis-à-vis is reasonable synthesis from the facts available here.

I've removed the COO comparison as it adds little for the controversy that it raises.

I shall augment the Death & Legacy paragraph later when more people have been consulted - and when I recover from the demands of your tight editorship ! People say to me that I am taking a lot of time looking into Mr Sheehy's career. I am but I am a Kerryman who is not preoccupied with Gaelic football but rather with more socially conscious endeavours. But your endeavours to monitor this Wikipedia article seem to me to go beyond the mere call of duty in its stickliness on details, phrasings and even words - and you are not even from Kerry !

Tamjk. Tamjk (talk) 20:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi. A few quick points.

1. WP:TLDR. I like long posts as much as the next editor. Probably more so. But, while you've taken the time to write a lot of words above and with every respect, I haven't read them all. In order to address the tags raised in the article, you would ideally address the points raised in those tags. Actually addressing the points (in the article) will "move the dial" in a way that writing essays to me (here) cannot.
2. WP:TALKPAGE. If you would like to discuss the content of an article (or its references, or how to use the references to improve the content, or whatever), then please do so at the relevant article talk page. Not here. This is my User talkpage. Monitored (for the most part) only by me. In general, if you want to talk about a specific article the best place to do that is the article Talkpage. Like Talk:Paudie Sheehy. Allowing, hopefully, other interested editors to contribute.

Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 20:23, 6 August 2023 (UTC)