Helvetius

Re: Socialism and William Thompson

I haven't come across that quotation in the OED, but I'm sure you're not lying. In fact, most sourcebooks do say that that term "socialism" originated around 1830, so the assertion that it orgiginated in 1829 with Thompson seems plausible. Nevertheless, the article on socialism at Wikipedia is very broad, and we should probably not get into the obscure details about who coined the term "socialism" and when exactly. If you want to do that, the History of socialism article is a more appropirate place. But even there you would need something more than a primary source and a dictionary—perhaps a few academic essays or books, although they would still have to stand up to the more conservative findings of sourcebooks. I'm not disputing the occurance of a division between Thompson and Owen, nor am I disputing that Leroux introduced the term "socialism" to France in 1834. I'm simply letting you know that the article intentionally glosses over these details. Like I said, you may be more interested in the History of socialism, where things get a little more specific. -- WGee 03:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right the History of socialism page is the right place to start, particularly as the current position is to start with the erroneous statement that the word entered English from French when the reverse is true. Having grown up from 4 yrs onwards in France and Suisse Romande, I am bilingual and well aware that, although English has an overall larger vocab than French, in the specific area of political words, French has a larger vocab than English. Nonetheless, despite the latinate derivation, "socialism" is in actual fact an English neologism, not a French one, and given that this is counter-intuitive to many people's preconceptions, it needs to be backed up with some facts and references. Something tells me shifting the ground on this one is going to take me a while... Helvetius 04:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you cite a source for your contribution? Since it is not in general sourcebooks, it doesn't qualify as an "elementary fact" that would not need a citation. -- WGee 03:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC) User:WGee

In response to request for citations. The OED itself (easiest access), Richard Pankhurst's "William Thompson" (1954, 1991) currently out of print. "The Cooperative Magazine", 1828 - 1830 (only readily available copy, British Library) Helvetius 04:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I "created" your userpage so that your username won't be a red link anymore. Editors tend to prejudiciously dismiss the edits of "red-linkers" because they are often vandals or single-issue POV-pushers. -- WGee 03:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC

Fair enough, that's what it's there for. In the end I've been impressed enough by the impact that the political ideas of people who were long dead before I was born have had upon me and others, that I see identity as being a very poor second to ideas.Helvetius 04:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this the essay by Richard Pankhurst that you were talking about [1]? If so, it would be great if you could provide a quotation, since many people and local libraries do not have access to JSTOR. Also, could you provide the details about the edition of the OED in which you found the reference to Thompson? -- WGee 15:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay - I was away. On the plus side, I was down in London at the British library doing research on this (and related). To answer: Yes, that I believe that is the correct Pankhurst text (tho' I also have no access to JSTOR) it was actually released as a book in '54 and again by Pluto in '91. I'll look on tracking down exact reference. The edition of the OED is the Second, which I'm presuming is the current one given that it's the reference one in the BL and my local city library. I also now have a photocopy of the actual text (i.e. first use of 'Socialist') which is actually from the November 1827 issue of the Cooperative Magazine (p. 509)- so I got the year wrong. Quote: "The chief question on this point, however, between the modern (or Mill and Malthus) Political Economists, and the Communionists or Socialists, is, whether it is more beneficial that this capital should be individual or in common?"

Also see Pankhurst's footnote reference to Max Beer in Ch. 10, p. 70 of the 1991 Pluto ed. of said book: "During the eighteen-twenties Thompson was often in London, where his tireless propaganda gave impetus to the rapidly expanding Co-operative Movement. He was the driving force in the historic debates of the Co-operators which began at Chancery Lane in 1825 and were later transferred to Red Lion Square. It is believed that the term 'Socialism' was first coined at these debates [1]". The footnote reads: "1. M.Beer. A History of British Socialism (1929), Vol. I, p. 187." I'll check out the Beer reference by the end of the week. Helvetius 01:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Greetings: I'm something of a Thompson scholar, myself. Most of what has been posted is good and valuable, although I have one objection: There is no evidence he'd read Ricardo or was responding directly to Ricardo. The term "Ricardian socialist" is now generally considered to be an unfortunate misnomer at best (see, e.g., J.E. King's 1983 essay, "Utopian or scientific? A reconsideration of the Ricardian Socialists" in the History of Political Economy; also David Reisman's intro in Vol 1 of Democratic Socialism in Britain, p lxi). The term has two main sources: Esther Lowenthal's 1911 book, The Ricardian Sociaists and Foxwell's introduction to the English translation of Menger's book (which does not itself use the term). But the idea that all value is created by labor can be traced back at least as far as John Locke in his 2nd Treatise on Gov't.

Unenclosed (talk) 01:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Entirely agree. I've no idea who's decided to put in that sentence about reading Ricardo (or corresponding to him). The "Ricardian Socialist" trope actually originates with Marx (Poverty of Philosophy, iirc, if not then either Contribution to a Critique... or Theories of Surplus Value) and, after him, Engels. It's then picked up by Foxwell who seems to blame Ricardo for the entire socialist critique of political economy (mostly, AFAICS, due to being a raving anti-Semite). Professor Noel Thompson's book "The People's Science", despite it's faults on W. Thompson, is good at debunking the "Ricardian Socialist" label and demonstrating a much clearer debt to Adam Smith's (somewhat confused) theory of value. In any case, Thompson's critique is not really centred around a theory of value, possibly another reason why Marxist scholars have ignored him. Helvetius (talk) 09:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, removed the extraneous Ricardo references from the W.T. article and amended the Ricardian socialism article to give more up to date assessment of the validity of that category referencing King and N. W. Thompson (and added the Marx reference).Helvetius (talk) 11:14, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Commune and intentional community

You have set interwiki from Commune to fr:Communauté intentionnelle. But from fr:Communauté intentionnelle interwiki leads to Intentional community. In English, commune is one of types of intentional communities, what's about French? May be better create French page fr:Commune (communauté intentionnelle) and then put interwiki to it? Alexander Roumega (talk) 07:52, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that, to the best of my knowledge, "commune" does not have that association with intentional community in French (outside of Québec, where that sense has presumably been acquired as a loan-word from the surrounding anglophones). In French when you say commune, it's the local municipality you are talking about. And in fact the interwiki link to the English equivalent from fr:Commune does go to en:Municipality, correctly. So I'm a little unsure about creating the fr:Commune (communauté intentionnelle) page if it doesn't really have common currency in francophone usage. I'm not sure what the best solution is exactly. But it's definitely the case that the pre-existing interwiki link from the english was a case of fr:Faux-ami. Helvetius (talk) 10:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience

Sir, thanks for being patience re: the searching for sources regarding the exact position of Mu'tazilism within Islam. Without going too deep into personal details, my laptop more or less stopped working and I only just now got a consistent, functioning computer here at work. I'm pressed for time at the moment but now, I should be able to log in consistently every day and I haven't forgotten my pledge to share sources on the article's talk page so we can determine how exactly the Mu'tazila should be categorized. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Helvetius (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

Caught by a colocation web host block but this host or IP is not a web host. My IP address is 85.115.53.202. This is my work address. Helvetius (talk) 15:52, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Decline reason:

That is not your work address, that is the address of Forcepoint Cloud London (unless y ou happen to work there, but even then, you are using their proxy). You'll need to disable your use of the proxy in order to edit. The block should clear up, 24 hours after you do so. Yamla (talk) 18:23, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

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No, I'm definitely logged in alright. Still getting the same block: Helvetius (talk) 13:42, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

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You still need to disable your use of forcepoint if you wish to edit here. --Yamla (talk) 11:42, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Berean Hunter, note there are multiple overlapping blocks that apply to that IP address. The pertinent one is this one, which is correctly not anon-only. It's blocking use of forcepoint entirely, as per no-proxies. --Yamla (talk) 11:44, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

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