Jammo85

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AfD Hartley_Jackson

Hello,

Here to say that I have rethought my vote in the AfD Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hartley_Jackson_(3rd_nomination).

The fact that most wrestlers in Intercontinental_Tag_Team_Championship_(Zero1) have wikipedia articles is particularly intriguing. I think this indicates notability of the subject. I also give many more reasons in the AfD itself, if you would like to check.

Your current vote there is currently invalid, because it does not give reasons supported on the guidelines; mainly WP:ENTERTAINER. If you would like your vote to be counted, I suggest you strike your previous one (striked as in this example), and cast another vote, supported on guidelines.

Best regards, Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 15:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much for that Walwal20. I really value your help and input, especially in looking for sources and reasons for notability and for the article to stay. Very disheartening to put in work, but given no help other than just contradicting statements from other articles supported. It just blew my mind on what is notable, what isn't. As you sad about the Championship, I too also believe that indicates notability for a wrestler to receive one. If that's classed as inheriting notability, then everyone has inherited their notability? Its what makes one notable. So I am extremely thankful for your help!! --Jammo85 (talk)

RfC on Hartley Jackson

Hi Jammo85,

Since the AfD on Hartley Jackson has been recently closed as keep, I'll begin working on using official ways to decide whether the sources you have, for stating that he was part of the TMDK, are reliable or not.

Since Addicted would likely dispute it, it is better if we get consensus from the community.

I have created a draft for a Request for Comment (WP:RFC) in my userspace: User:Walwal20/RfC_Hartley_Jackson.

If you want to contribute by adding more sources & explanations to it, I'd appreciate it.

I intend to wait some days before publishing the RfC, because Addicted might dispute the AfD being closed as keep.

Best, Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 22:48, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Your valuable contributions and guidance kept the article alive and I am very happy. I was hesitant to begin another article, but I have a better understanding of what is required now. Yes, that would be great if you can determine if some of the sources to be reliable. I will continue my research too and will happily add to the RfC when published. Yes good idea, I feel a dispute could be a possibility too. I appreciate your willingness to help. Look forward to it and thank you again! Jammo85 (talk) 01:03, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Ready to change Hartley Jackson

Dear Jammo,

Sorry for keeping you waiting.

I have finished analyzing the matter of whether Hartley Jackson was a member of TMDK or not.
You can see my whole research here: User:Walwal20/RfC_Hartley_Jackson.

I do not think we need to post this to ask for public opinion.
There is enough sources to forcefully add them to the article.

But I need your help.
I intend to edit Hartley Jackson and The Mighty Don't Kneel, adding the phrase:

Hartley Jackson was part of The Mighty Don't Kneel in 2015 and 2016

with all sources that I found. Addicted will possibly revert my edits.

The help I need from you is:

• Add Hartley Jackson and The Mighty Don't Kneel to your watchlist;
• If Addicted reverts my edits, but you agree with my edit and my research, please revert Addicted's reverts;
• revert at most two times; do not revert a third time because of WP:3RR rule. I will also be reverting his reverts if needed.

If Addicted reverts more than twice, an admin will likely warn him to stop.

During the process, if any revert occurs, I'll also request help from other contributors to these pages.

So, can you help me with the above?

Best, Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 18:08, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Walwal20, thank you for your hard work. Of course I will be there to help. There are so many sources listed in your research that I would be at a loss as why they would be reverted. Hopefully there are no issues. Upon gaining more experience with Wikipedia and looking back into history, seemingly that certain editor has as problem with a few articles that doesn't fit their bias. I will definitely add to my watchlist. Thank you for your contributions. Jammo85 (talk) 10:55, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

I have just done it, Jammo85. Yes, it seems to be a case of someone trying to WP:GAME the system. Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 14:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Jammo85, pinging you because it has started. Best, Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 06:14, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Walwal20, thank you. I've just come back online to check. I will undo the changes in a few hours when I finish my shift. Here we go I guess Jammo85 (talk) 08:55, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Walwal20 I've undone the changes. This is getting beyond a joke. Everytime this member asks for more sources, it's provided, yet it's still deleted and passed off as not reliable. I'm still learning Wikipedia protocol, but this user is not helpful by basing off his opinion. Thank you for your help

I'd appreciate any guidance on articles to read about sourcing and citing would be, because I am confused as to what more this member needs? Thank you. Jammo85 (talk) 14:14, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Jammo85, thanks for the edits. The main article on sources is Wikipedia:Verifiability. There is little room to contest the official sources
https://web.archive.org/web/2017030303551/http://melbournecitywrestling.com.au/2016/06/18/hostile-takeover-2016/
https://web.archive.org/web/20160502062934/https://wrestlerampage.wordpress.com/
which are also strengthened by
https://www.cagematch.net/?id=29&nr=1293&page=2
However, the main problem we have right now is of Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, which is usually a mess.

When this happens, we have to be very careful and patient. For now, based on my experience I have ideas on how to go about this, and your recent edits will make a fundamental difference (thanks). I strongly recommend that we avoid direct interaction with Addicted. We have already discussed a lot, and reached no consensus, so there is no reason to believe this will change. Also, whatever we say can be used against us later, so it is better to stay safe, especially because the other party seems skilful in throwing WP:BAITs. In the end, an admin might need to come and handle the dispute; when that happens, the admin's decision is (usually) final.

Anyway, the main words now are "caution" and "patience". If you receive notifications that I've cited you, it's because I'm poking around to see what support from the authorities we can get. Best, Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 18:39, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

HI Walwal20, I found this interesting. I Just read the comments left by Addicted on the admins page, the closer of the Jackson afd page, and Addicted wrote:

'There is some emotional investment on my part but I know better than to use that as an excuse to do something that would be frowned upon. The best results are based in WP policy, not emotions. For the record, Jackson is not regarded well in Australia outside of his own state of South Australia (citation needed?) and even there he has detractors on the grounds of being over rated (citation needed?) (Sources?).'

That emotionl investment is being used and Addicted actions should be frowned upon. He contradicts himself from one sentence to the next in this. Saying that for the record, (What record?) that Jackson not regarded well in Australia (on who's opinion? His only). Where is the evidence of this. If he was not regarded well, then why was he so well traveled in not only Australia, winning championships of every notable wrestling company in many different states? But also worldwide. Jackson has major names (currently international or in WWE) in interviews stating he has been good trainer and mentor. Then to be hired by the largest wrestling company in the world to coach and produce talent just buries his emotional attachment statement. All of these comments I just made can be cited by sources. And some already have been in the article. And being over rated is again a pesnal opinion

Addicted has an emotional investment and seemingly a vendetta and its damaging the credibility of a number of articles in relation pro wrestling (including Melbourne City Wrestling and others articles that I have seen been deleted or fought over from researching history). In the end, this is not right way for someone to act. I belive that with Addicted making these edits and comments he does on articles, he is not maintaining the assumption of good faith in his editing? Jammo85 (talk) 00:16, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I had read these comments too. In Wikipedia, dealing with these kinds of situations is very common. It is not necessarily a bad thing, the fact that Wikipedia is open to everyone and heavily based on WP:CONSENSUS is what makes it popular. Addicted is very careful, so while I share some perceptions with you, he is not clearly breaking any rules so far. I could accuse him of violating WP:NPOV, of trying to WP:GAME the WP:BRD system, or of constantly throwing WP:BAITs, but there is no clear evidence of that. If I reported this in the administrator's noticeboard, I believe it would likely have a WP:BOOMERANG effect, and could harm us. That's why I'm being careful; don't mind if I cite you multiple times, I'm trying to see what can be done so that we achieve a clearer WP:CONSENSUS and support from other parties. Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 01:02, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I have edited the draft RFC stating clearly how the edits are wrong and will be reverted on sight per WP:BLP. You both need better and reliable sources totally independent of the subject. Remember, Jackson has a role in Wrestle Rampage's establishment as well and more than likely ran the FB page as an additional point. You need independent coverage - and I know it doesn't exist for one reason. Jackson was never a member of TMDK. Addicted4517 (talk) 01:56, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Addicted4517. As I said above, we have already discussed a lot about that, and no parties seem to agree with each other. There is no reason to keep discussing. Best, Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 02:14, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Walwal20 I really appreciate everything you are doing, thanks for fighting the good fight. I'm sure good will come of this. Let me know if you need my support anywhere, as I am still learning and reading Wikipedia protocols. Saying that just in case I have missed somewhere. Thanks again! Jammo85 (talk) 15:24, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Formal warning

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Hartley Jackson, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. The same applies to [[The Mighty Don't Kneel]. Facebook, Wordpress and Twitter are not reliable sources. Also under WP:BLP the source must be totally independent of the subject. Addicted4517 (talk) 09:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Addicted4517, you're not in position to give warnings here. There is a clear conflict of interest, and you are not a neutral party. Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 10:02, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Addicted4517 You have to let your emotional attachment go, as it's effecting your judgement and becoming a conflict of interest to this article. A Formal warning? I am confused, as again I provided information that you asked for, again you won't accept when it is found, again you continue to delete. I don't understand this behavior. Jammo85 (talk) 13:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

No you have not. You persist with unreliable sources despite my previous guidance, and your right to an assumption of good faith has now been exhausted, hence my warning. Your confusion lies in your refusal to accept that Jackson isn't/wasn't a member of TMDK and you can not prove under WP policy that he is/was. If you wish to prove it you need an independent reliable mainstream source. this page provides some examples of reliable sources. It also provides a list of sources to avoid. Also included in the reliable list would be a mainstream newspaper - such as the Adelaide Advertiser or the Sunday Mail in Jackson's home town of Adelaide. Avoid Facebook, Wordpress, Twitter and unless it's a match result Cage Match. Also avoid independent promotion official pages unless they are listed as reliable for matters outside the promotion (AFAIK only WWE has that level of reliability). Addicted4517 (talk) 03:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Jammo85, I have reported Addicted at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Addicted4517_reported_by_User:Walwal20_(Result:_). With 5 reverts, I think administrator action will come eventually. Remember that 3 reverts is permitted, but do not revert a fourth time, no matter the frustration you might feel. As you probably have noticed, I'm doing my best to settle this problem. As for the warning, do not worry, I will also have it dealt with. Best, Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 03:33, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

The 3RR limit is for 24 hours. There is also an exception for removing vandalism. Addicted4517 (talk) 07:26, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Walwal20 I appreciate that. Glad to know Addicted had their alarm clock set for exactly 24 hours to make the 3rd undo. Vandalism, hardly. You contradict yourself too much Addicted. I will not acknowledge you any further Jammo85 (talk) 10:49, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Heads up

Hi Jammo85,

There is a small chance that I will be blocked from editing for a few days.

Meanwhile, if there is anything you'd like to discuss, you can e-mail me directly by entering my user page and clicking "email this user" in the left panel.

As long as I have the sources and the support from other people, I intend to keep fighting to protect content creators and legitimate content to remain in articles.

Best, Walwal20 ^{talk ▾ contribs} 12:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much. You are fighting a hard battle! I appreciate all of this. I am so lost on all the policies, so much contradiction with them, so I thank you for your guidance and strong support. I will contact via email on user page. Jammo85 (talk) 06:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Informal warning

Your edit summary on your most recent edit on Hartley Jackson was quite rude and made a baseless assumption. I can not access Japanese language websites so my ability to source from there is inhibited. I would appreciate an apology for the assumption. I will always remove unreliable sources from BLP's as that is the correct thing to do. Addicted4517 (talk) 10:17, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh and you don't use "Tournament Data" as that is not a match result on Cage Match. I found the actual match result on Cage Match and replaced it accordingly. Addicted4517 (talk) 10:57, 2 November 2020 (UTC)